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PTE JAS. (JAMES) JOSEPH BROWN, 7998, WORCESTERSHIRE REGIMENT

M

MILLS

master brummie
Just doing an update search on one of "my soldiers" and on ForcesWarRecords I came across 2 new records.

Incident date 01/05/1917 listing him as "Deserter/absentee from his Majesty's Service". Offence date 07/04/1917 Devonport. Reference Police Gazette.
Incident date 08/05/1917. Police Gazette 01/05/1917.

He attested into the Worcestershire Militia in 1902 as 6804 and enlisted into the Worcestershire Regiment as 7998 in 1903.

His service papers after 1903 have not survived.

Previously his last known record related to "shell shock" in/around August, 1916. To come across 2 new records was a welcome surprise. I have searched Ancestry records for "desertion", found no listing. I then searched the Police Gazette, but to no avail. Therefore are these 2 records incorrectly referenced, someone else or is it me missing/having difficulty finding the record?

Appreciate any help please?

David
 
Ancestry does not have the Police Gazette for 1917 - for some reason dates held are 1812 to 1902 and 1921 to 1927.
They are available here

Home | Search the archive | British Newspaper Archive

Whether you are a researcher, historian or you simply want to know more about Britain's history, take this fantastic opportunity to search The British Newspaper Archive - a vast treasure trove of historical newspapers from your own home.
www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk

However the only entry I can see is for a Jas F Brown.
 
Janice,

Happy New Year.
Thank you, I couldn't find anything on FindMyPast either. I'll try another Forum I am a member of, to see if they can find anything.

David
 
David,

Do you have a birth year for Joseph and his parents names?

1911 census for a James Brown (box maker) aged 25 born Birmingham married (Margaret also 25) could this be him?

Peter
 
theodore said:
David,

Do you have a birth year for Joseph and his parents names?

1911 census for a James Brown (box maker) aged 25 born Birmingham married (Margaret also 25) could this be him?

Peter
Click to expand...
Peter,

Thank you for that. Just seen this l will check tomorrow evening and get back to you.

From memory I seem to remember he was with the 2nd Battalion in India in 1911.

Tomorrow I will post all I have on him.

David
 
Peter,

What I have.
Born 24 May, 1886 Birmingham. Father John and Mother Eliza. Maiden name Harris.
Married Minnie Ewer 1925, Birmingham.
Died 28 December, 1952 Birmingham.
When he was transferred to sick convey on 9 March, 1915 he had already served 12 years service. This ties in with the 1911 Census, with 2nd Battalion in India.
Believed to have been present at Gheluvelt.
His service ends as a deserter, Police Gazette, 01/05/1917 Devenport.

David
 
Thanks David

Have you seen this info?

Reference:MH 106/2101/359
Description:Folio(s): 564-565.
Name: James Joseph Brown.
Rank: Private.
Unit/Battalion/Regiment: 2 Worcestershire Regiment.
Service number: 7998.
Age: 31.
Hospital(s): 1st Southern General Hospital, Birmingham.
Condition/Injury/Disease: Neurasthenia.
Details and Outcome: Illness began March 1915. Patient admitted suffering with trembling, fainting and giddiness. Discharged 06/06/1915. Includes a medical case sheet and clinical chart.
Number of Pages: 2.

Available from NA

Peter
 
theodore said:
Thanks David

Have you seen this info?

Reference:MH 106/2101/359
Description:Folio(s): 564-565.
Name: James Joseph Brown.
Rank: Private.
Unit/Battalion/Regiment: 2 Worcestershire Regiment.
Service number: 7998.
Age: 31.
Hospital(s): 1st Southern General Hospital, Birmingham.
Condition/Injury/Disease: Neurasthenia.
Details and Outcome: Illness began March 1915. Patient admitted suffering with trembling, fainting and giddiness. Discharged 06/06/1915. Includes a medical case sheet and clinical chart.
Number of Pages: 2.

Available from NA

Peter
Click to expand...
Peter,

No all I had was from Forceswarrecords, wounded, shell shock, incident date 21 August, 1916, entitled to wound badge.

I wonder if this is what is referenced above?

If I put MH 106 reference above into NA will the details come up?

David
 
David,

These records have not been digitised so can't be downloaded but you can order a copy (cost?).
This link will take you to the page.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C16894450

Neurasthenia
A group of symptoms, including chronic physical and mental fatigue, weakness, and generalized aches and pains, formerly thought to result from exhaustion of the nervous system and now usually considered a psychological disorder.

James Joseph Brown is a rather elusive person to find information for. No birth record found that fits, marriage ?
Interesting that his Militia papers don't give a name and address of a next of kin but details for where he resides (and for the last 12 months) is 20 Park Lane, Aston. The name and residence of your present (or past) master (Mr. Brown, box maker) Park Lane. So does Joseph work for his father? The 1911 census I mentioned in previous post above could well be them, both box makers and working from home. If correct then James Joseph is married (to Margaret) but I have been unable to find a marriage for them.
A second Police Gazette dated 8.5.17 gives following info:
Reported as deserter or absentee who has re-joined or who for any other reason, is not to be apprehended.
Additional info
Advertised in Police Gazette 01/05/1917
So no longer a deserter. His Army service did not terminate in 1917 (as a deserter) but continued. Absent voters list (1918) shows him serving with 9th Bn. Worcs. Pte. 7998, address 1 court 40 Cheapside (St. Martin's & Deritend Ward).
Not on 1911 census serving with 2nd Bn. India.
Peter
 
Last edited:
theodore said:
David,

These records have not been digitised so can't be downloaded but you can order a copy (cost?).
This link will take you to the page.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C16894450

Neurasthenia
A group of symptoms, including chronic physical and mental fatigue, weakness, and generalized aches and pains, formerly thought to result from exhaustion of the nervous system and now usually considered a psychological disorder.

James Joseph Brown is a rather elusive person to find information for. No birth record found that fits, marriage ?
Interesting that his Militia papers don't give a name and address of a next of kin but details for where he resides (and for the last 12 months) is 20 Park Lane, Aston. The name and residence of your present (or past) master (Mr. Brown, box maker) Park Lane. So does Joseph work for his father? The 1911 census I mentioned in previous post above could well be them, both box makers and working from home. If correct then James Joseph is married (to Margaret) but I have been unable to find a marriage for them.
A second Police Gazette dated 8.5.17 gives following info:
Reported as deserter or absentee who has re-joined or who for any other reason, is not to be apprehended.
Additional info
Advertised in Police Gazette 01/05/1917
So no longer a deserter. His Army service did not terminate in 1917 (as a deserter) but continued. Absent voters list (1918) shows him serving with 9th Bn. Worcs. Pte. 7998, address 1 court 40 Cheapside (St. Martin's & Deritend Ward).
Not on 1911 census serving with 2nd Bn. India.
Peter
Click to expand...
Peter,

Thank you for the link, I've started the process with "page check request" I will let you know details.
Appreciated he continued in service, as you say he's on absent voters list 1918 and 1919.
I have rechecked my 1911 census and my James Brown is in fact JOSEPH BROWN, 8057. Mistake on the census roll.
So when his sick record of 1915 showing he had served 12 years, it presumably meant 7 years with the Colours and 5 years in the Reserves.

Ok it means I now need to go back to 1911 and go forward to see which of my later records are correct.

I'll let you know how I get on.
 
David,

Yes Joseph Brown he enlisted November 1903 not that long after James enlisted. Also served Labour Corps and Royal Fusiliers. Discharged March 1919.

Will be interested in what info you get.

Peter
 
pjmburns said:
I am confused. Are we now looking at 2 different soldiers? James Joseph and a Joseph.
Click to expand...
Janice,

No only James Joseph Brown. It seems that my research followed the wrong James? Peter has found a 1911 Census which could be the James we are looking for since my 1911 one was wrong. I am now starting over again.

David
 
My reason for asking was the regimental number in the title is 7998 but in post 10 you put 8057. That means the medical records (7998) don't apply unless there are also some for 8057.
 
Have you Tried the Regimental museum Norton Barracks Worcester They were helpful when I traced my Uncle John T Allen for the first world war, Also some records are in the Cathedral good luck
Janice
 
Thanks - not me searching just trying to clarify who member MILLS is looking for.
Hopefully they will see your helpful suggestion
 
pjmburns said:
Thanks - not me searching just trying to clarify who member MILLS is looking for.
Hopefully they will see your helpful suggestion
Click to expand...
Janice,

Sorry for the confusion.

Peter questioned my 1911 Census for James and on rechecking I found that in fact was wrongly named James when fact he was Joseph, with the number 8057. So my research was following the wrong man. Hence trying to check if my James in 1911 Census was the one identified by Peter.

Yes I am aware of the Museum, which is no longer at Norton Barracks, but I don't think they would be able to provide answers to the questions I'm looking for.

David
 
OK, gone over my previous research and have to agree with Peter, nothing for Birth, Marriage, Death, 1891 or 1901 Census'.
His records that survive suggests that he could be the James living with his parents, James' wife and brother Benjamin, with his wife. The link being "box maker" on his employment when enlisting, also working for a Mr Brown, his Father?
My Census record for him in 1911 proved to be incorrect as the name was incorrectly listed as James when in fact it should have been recorded as Joseph.
So if the 1911 Census is correct then his Father is James, Mother is Sarah and his Wife is Margaret.
I found several trees on Ancestry, unfortunately many of the names and dates don't check out. In particular births, deaths and marriage date to Margaret. Different names as well.
As there is no Tree actually linked to James Joseph Brown, they are just linked to the name by marriage for instance, it is not worth seeking contact.
Anyway following the electoral rolls, if Margaret is his wife, then I found them at 11 court 19, Bromsgrove St. Deritend from 1921 until 1924 when they disappear.
Dead end?
Any help, suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

David
 
Last edited:
pjmburns said:
1920 eroll
View attachment 177287
1925 entry
View attachment 177288

suggesting perhaps deaths of James and Margaret?
Click to expand...
Janice,

You are a star!
Yes it looks like wife, Margaret died in 1925. Look that up tomorrow.
I did see this record but I didn't note the address.
Looks like I need to follow these 2 names to see when James Joseph disappear's. It may indirectly give a clue to his birth.
Thank you, an important lead.

David
 
Unfortunately it looks like 1925 is the last date found for James.
Any further thoughts Peter?
Could find any further information regarding Margaret either.

David
 
David,

It's proving to be a difficult one to get the answers we need. IF the 1911 census with James, Sarah etc is the Brown family we need then it's only Benjamin that we can find a fair amount of info on. The following link will show.


1901 census, 1911 census, marriage details and more. He enlisted twice and his service papers have survived (the 1940 bombing) but sadly his next of kin shown are for his wife and their children only and no mention of parent(s) or siblings. An address for him on marriage certificate (m. 1908) is 3 back 15 ?????? Row, not very clear first part but you may be able or another member may be able to decipher it. Might be another possible lead with electoral registers. The fact that we have been unable to find them (James & Margaret) after 1925 does not imply they have died. A 1922 ER had only James and Margaret at 11 court 19 address and no James Joseph. It's strange that birth and marriage details (James J. & Margaret and his parents) have not been found or the 1891 and 1901 census records for the Brown family we seek.

With the link for Benjamin details is a photo of him (Dorset Reg.). He received GSW left leg (amputated below the knee) discharged 21.08.1919. Hope you can make out the address on marriage cert.

Have tried every avenue I could think of to find the info needed but I not giving up just yet.
PS
I know the link above shows James killed 1916 (no he wasn't) Flanders and also the marriage details are not correct but the Benjamin info I have checked out.

Peter
 
Last edited:
There is a tree on familysearch that has the marriage to Minnie (lists 2 children) but little else.

However, I have found a marriage between a James Joseph Brown and a Sarah Luckett, Mar qtr 1892.

In 1891 Sarah Luckett (single) is listed as a lodger on Fleet St with what looks like 2 sons, J and Ben (can't see scan to see what J may be). There is a registration for a Benjamin Luckett no mmn, Sep qtr 1889, which matches Benjamin Brown's dob, sadly no birth registration for James.

There is a Sarah Luckett listed on the 1871 census, father Benjamin.
 
MWS said:
There is a tree on familysearch that has the marriage to Minnie (lists 2 children) but little else.

However, I have found a marriage between a James Joseph Brown and a Sarah Luckett, Mar qtr 1892.

In 1891 Sarah Luckett (single) is listed as a lodger on Fleet St with what looks like 2 sons, J and Ben (can't see scan to see what J may be). There is a registration for a Benjamin Luckett no mmn, Sep qtr 1889, which matches Benjamin Brown's dob, sadly no birth registration for James.

There is a Sarah Luckett listed on the 1871 census, father Benjamin.
Click to expand...
 
MWS,

Yes I came across this tree and made this mistake. If you follow some of the members you find that they don't actually check out, I found that they were not connected and because none of the trees are actually connected to the Brown family I saw little point in asking for actual evidence.
Like Peter I believe the only lead we have is the 1911 Census that Peter found Iinking James Joseph as a box maker working for his Father which ties in with his enlistment employment in 1903.

David
 
Ignoring the tree which has no info on Sarah Luckett anyway, I think it may be a possibility that James Joseph and Benjamin were illegitimate children of Sarah Luckett, who subsequently married the elder James Joseph Brown.

There would be something to compare with for this, Benjamin's dob on birth certificate and on 1939 register.
 
Also if Margaret died between 1920 and 1925 then is it not possible James Joseph married Minnie (Ewer) reg Dec 1925. On the 1939 register a James J Brown born 1886 is living with Minnie. The 1939 ER lists the pair James Joseph and Minnie at 36 Oozells St North.

There is a death for a Joseph J Brown aged 66, Dec qtr 1952.
 
MWS said:
In 1891 Sarah Luckett (single) is listed as a lodger on Fleet St with what looks like 2 sons, J and Ben (can't see scan to see what J may be). There is a registration for a Benjamin Luckett no mmn, Sep qtr 1889, which matches Benjamin Brown's dob, sadly no birth registration for James.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately the original just has J E Luckett
1674481988029.png
 
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