Passages, Alleyways Gulletts and Snickets of Old Brum

[mikejee]

Dennis
If you mean the building on the left, i do not think it was the fire station. I think the fire station was in Upper Priory before moving to the "new " one. the buiding on the left is the Weighta & Measures Offices, which were there before the fire station was built. When you know what it says you can read it above the door.

 

[Dennis Williams]

Dennis
If you mean the building on the left, i do not think it was the fire station. I think the fire station was in Upper Priory before moving to the "new " one. the buiding on the left is the Weighta & Measures Offices, which were there before the fire station was built. When you know what it says you can read it above the door.

Cheers mike...I think I may have misread the caption...! It's obvious now you say....

 

[Dennis Williams]

A nice new (to me) couple from around the Bull Ring....Moat Lane from St Martins Lane...and a scene from St Martins Lane itself....

 

[Phil]

Dennis


Both photos are taken in Moat Lane, St Martins Lane was the little bit that ran across the top of Moat Lane, where the Bull Ring Tavern is today. Your two peaky blinders in the second photo are standing outside the Talbot public house which the Bull Ring Tavern ( first called the Talbot) was built to replace. Great photos mate.

 

[paul stacey]

Was moat lane, built over the old 15th C moat, I wonder.?? Paul

 

[mikejee]

It would seem from this 1750 map that Moat lane led down to the moat

 

[Astoness]

hi paul...the moat was excavated in 1973/5 and its stone structures now lie intact underneath the wholesale markets...im sure i have a photo of the excavation somewhere...will try and find it for you

here you go paul ive found that photo...wished i had been there at the time...it would have been right up my street but if as is being bandied about that the markets are to be demolished and rebuilt on it will once again uncover the moats stuctures and i wont miss out this time lol....




lyn

 

[Dennis Williams]

It would seem from this 1750 map that Moat lane led down to the moat

...and from this Hanson's map of 1789, some 39years later, we see that Black Boy Yard was built as the lead in to Jamaica Row....sounds like West Indian immigration had started by then...lol.....

 

[Dennis Williams]

And here's another from Moat Lane looking the other way....and a cracking drawing showing the same view when there was a building over the end of the Lane....dated 1853....the pub is faithfully represented in both pics..!

 

[Dennis Williams]

And this is a mystery to me...This is captioned Moat Row....and the pub sign clearly says it is the Criterion at No 6 ?Branch?

This text is taken from Mckenna's Central Pubs second volume, and says the Criterion is in Jamaica Row...so only Phil and mike will know the answer....which one was it? Can you put your pub hats on guys and advise?

"The Criterion Vaults, originally Brookes Wine & Spirit Vaults, dating from 1865, was bought by William Jones in 1883,
to add to his Criterion pub company. The house had a back entrance onto Market Street, with an early morning license for the
sale of rum and coffee to market workers. In 1885 the house was sold to emerging Aston brewers, Atkinsons. They brought in
James & Lister Lea to completely redesign the house in the Flemish style. Renamed Brook Vaults, it opened in January 1886.
Inside the seating was unusual in that it had long leather-covered benches, which were divided by arms into individual seats.
Quite unique in Birmingham. The house was compulsorily purchased by the City Council in 1970 and demolished in 1974 for
the construction of the Wholesale Markets."



.

 

[Dennis Williams]

And another captioning query...This one is captioned St Martin's Church from MOAT ROW....do they mean Moat Lane does the team think?

 

[Astoness]

And another captioning query...This one is captioned St Martin's Church from MOAT ROW....do they mean Moat Lane does the team think?



View attachment 95031

must be moat lane den....looks to be taken in the same spot as your 2 pics of moat lane on post 1150

lyn

 

[Phil]

Dennis

If you were stood in Moat Row unless you were stood at the end of Moat Lane there is no way that you would be able to see St Martins Church, see the attached map. I know Mike has some photos of Moat Row from the sixties that you might recognise, perhaps he will put one up. The one that I have are much older and would only confuse things more.

 

[brummie nick]

On the 1851 census this is the only pub I can find at number 9 moat lane.

Sophia UPTON Head W 60 F Licensed Victualler Tanworth-WAR
Joseph UPTON Son U 28 M Waiter Tanworth-WAR
Elizabeth UPTON Daur U 26 F Waiter Tanworth-WAR
Sophia UPTON Daur U 22 F Waiter Tanworth-WAR
George UPTON Son U 18 M --- Tanworth-WAR
Thomas CRICH Serv U 20 M Hostler Ketford-NTT
Address: 9 Moat Lane, Birmingham
Census Place: Birmingham Birmingham, Warwickshire
PRO Reference: HO/107/2053 Folio: 364 Page: 37 FHL Film: 0087311

 

[Dennis Williams]

That's what I thought Phil...cheers.....And has that 1851 Entry for a pub got a name nick? And I'd still like to see your Moat Lane/Row pics Phil!!!

 

[mikejee]

Dennis
To take things in order. There seems to be some doubt as to the origins of "Black Boy", though your assumption may well, be correct. I found this
( https://www.wordorigins.org/index.php/forums/viewthread/752/#6874 ) , which introduced me what could be a useful and interesting forum.
I agree that the photos should be listed as Moat lane. the Criterion was certainly in Jamaica Row . Below is a broad photo of the shops in Moat Row.

 

[Dennis Williams]

Thanks mike....nice picture you took.....that site needs further investigation...looks academic and very interesting......The Black Boy was on our Bull Ring Pubs thread awhile back, but this is what Mckenna wrote:

The Black Boy Stores in Jamaica Row was an extension of the Black Boy in St Martin's Lane. It was built by
John Gough for the tanners and cattle drovers, that they might be accommodated with food and drink without
interfering with his more respectable trade. The license was given up under the Improvement Scheme on the
Gooch Estate. Also losing their license in 1892 were the Fisherman's Arms, the Red Cow and the Woodman's Stores,
situated at the end of a terrace of early eighteenth-century houses. At 13 Jamaica Row was the Smithfield Arms,
originating around 1860. A second house, in the Queen Anne style, was built on the site, to the designs of
James & Lister Lea in 1885. In 1950, licensee Doris Caldicott obtained a full license at a cost of £I,475.
This pub was demolished for the 1970s Market.

 

[mikejee]

The pub at no 9 was The Drovers Arms, which was still there up to 1868, but gone by 1872. this would, i think have been on the side of the street that became the market. there was also The Talbot at no 24, which would have been on the other side of the street. By the 1873 White's directory there was a licensed victualler listed at no 346 Bradford St, where the later Drovers Arms was

 

[mikejee]

Pictures of the pubs in Jamaica Row around 1870 are at https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=23229

 

[carolina]

The Moat and Moat Lane.

 

[brummie nick]

There was another pub in Moat lane in 1851

John BENNETT Head W 42 M Licensed Victualler Bewdley-WOR
Mary OVERTON Serv U 35 F Housekeeper Bewdley-WOR
Address: 17B Moat Lane, Birmingham
Census Place: Birmingham Birmingham, Warwickshire
PRO Reference: HO/107/2053 Folio: 365 Page: 39 FHL Film: 0087311

Also at 16 described has a retail brewer.

W. D. WOLLEN Head M 55 M Retail Brewer Winkfield-BEK
H. WOLLEN Wife M 39 F --- Lichfield-STF
W. H. WOLLEN Son - 11 M Scholar Birmingham-WAR
Ann BURNS Serv U 28 F General Serv ----IRE
T.W. OGDEN Lodg M 30 M Traveller Chester-CHS
Caroline OGDEN Lodg M 23 F --- Budley-WOR
G. MOORCROFT Lodg U 66 M --- Burton-STF
T.W. POWELL Lodg U 20 M Hawker Banbury-OXF
Address: 16 Moat Lane, Birmingham
Census Place: Birmingham Birmingham, Warwickshire
PRO Reference: HO/107/2053 Folio: 365 Page: 39 FHL Film: 0087311

 

[Dennis Williams]

The pub at no 9 was The Drovers Arms, which was still there up to 1868, but gone by 1872. this would, i think have been on the side of the street that became the market. there was also The Talbot at no 24, which would have been on the other side of the street. By the 1873 White's directory there was a licensed victualler listed at no 346 Bradford St, where the later Drovers Arms was

Yes mike...perhaps these old maps might help....




And the key...




And thanks to all for such insightful responses. Your old photos have lost nothing in time mike...you must be very proud...

 

[Dennis Williams]

Anyone ever heard of Suffolk Terrace? Shoothill special...maybe mike might have a map?




there are quite a few of Suffolk Street on there which I find interesting...

 

[Vivienne14]

I'd be interested in khow these relate to today's map too as the area was completely redeveloped when they put Suffolk Street Queensway through. (Don't think it's even called Suffolk St Queensway anymore, yet another change). For me it's one of those places where it's hard to imagine its past, being totally obliterated by the road system. Viv.

 

[Jayell]

Great photos of Suffolk Street Dennis. I've never seen any of those before. Wow! They really take you back in time don't they?

Judy

 

[mikejee]

Dennis
Your title for the picture says Suffolk St terrace, not suffolk Terrace. Which is right. i have searched for a Suffolk terrace , and the only one associated with Birmingham is in Bournmouth , where apartments were regularly advertised in the birmingham Post, and where in 1891 Henry & Rose Goffe, the mineral water manufacturers, were boarding during the 1891 census

 

[paul stacey]

Again 'Dennis', has scored, what beautiful, atmospheric shots of Old Birmingham, never heard of those streets or terraces, must have been demolished before I was born in the 40's. Paul

 

[Dennis Williams]

Dennis
Your title for the picture says Suffolk St terrace, not suffolk Terrace. Which is right. i have searched for a Suffolk terrace , and the only one associated with Birmingham is in Bournmouth , where apartments were regularly advertised in the birmingham Post, and where in 1891 Henry & Rose Goffe, the mineral water manufacturers, were boarding during the 1891 census

Sorry mike, you are right of course....I'm sure it's just an alleyway (unnamed) off Suffolk St...just below the Queens College Building...that might be it....there's an 1889 map I think confirms a likely gap off Suffolk St I found, but Old Maps has sort of gone from my Bookmarked page, and I never saved it! And now I can't get the 1889 Brum old map link back to copy or check...helpppp?? And please don't give me any accolades...they are all from this Warwickshire Shoothill collection...and it just blows my mind! e.g...this pic of nearby John Bright Street...fabulous...

 

[mikejee]

Unfortunately Dennis, Oldmaps has changed and you can now only get a very distant view without a subscription or by buying a map. As you say, the only open -ended terrace on Suffolk St seems to be Court 8 just below the college as seen below

 

[mindy1459]

I am glad you mentioned about 'old maps' Mike, because I had been having trouble accessing them and thought it was me doing something wrong.