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jelf william george -- mary ann hughes

A

Astonian

gone but not forgotten
hi guys
sorry to beabit of a pain,but can anybody spare abit of
there valuable time i am desperat to find a
marriage between george william jelf and mary ann
hughes, and it was possible st martins or st lennords
around the very late 1800,s to the early 1900,s
and possible birmingham
at an address called [ IVYDENE ] 901 tyburn rd
erdintonbirmingham 24
once again i thank you all for your valuable time
have a nice day and i wish you all a merry christmas and a happy and health and prosperous new year
best wishes astonian ;;;
 
Re: william george jelf -- mary ann hughes

I checked FreeBMD for the marriage.

There is obviously a transcription error as the entries read:

Dec Qtr 1867 Aston 6d 381

Mary Ann Hughes

Mary Ann Jelf

I think Mary Ann Jelf should read George William Jelf?
 
Re: william george jelf -- mary ann hughes

hi sue
many thanks for that very much appreciated search
yes i suspect it was a clercial error
mary ann hughes did mary jelf
when i checkeda couple of the jelfs family of brothers
it always came back with mary an jelf on it
yet she died sept 16th 1946 and the family members the brothers also had this name on strange
as i said it was tyburn rd erdintonb.24 where she lived for donkey years prior the thirtys
once again sue thanks a million desperate search is over now
so now i can put this one to bed astonian ;;;
 
Re: william george jelf -- mary ann hughes

Hi

Don't want to put a damper on things but checking Ancestry for the mentioned marriage the page lists 2 women and 2 men so perhaps it cannot be assumed that it was a transcription error?

People on the page are
Joseph Fox
Mary Ann Hughes
Mary Ann Jelf
William Taylor

Suzanne
 
Re: william george jelf -- mary ann hughes

i think ive found the marriage

george william "jalfs" to mary ann hughes

1885 jul-sep aston 6d 360
 
Re: william george jelf -- mary ann hughes

hi shera
do you really think that could be the one
because there is a spelling mistake in that one too
they have spelt jelf with an a rather with the e, jelf
and would it come under the erdingtpn area
but there again it was possible done diberlately
by the people whom went to arrange the marriage
because has you know fommemory this ann jelf as appeared numerous times on a couple of the jelf brothers certi;
any chance you could enlighten me on this one please
i do have there last will and testoments from both of
them and the legal documents and the jelfs name are with an e ; when it came back from london from the security vaults
i was told by them there is limited stuff they could tell
me , and other info;; on himwould not be disclosed to me or my solictor and prior to that they contactedme back and asked me how much do i know and prove to them
but the only info;; we are prepared to give you is postible what you know
but its always spelt with the e. and not with the a ;
many thanks shera yet again you have always helped me out
just like alberta lloyed and sue
so at this moment i am confused , but saying that and thinking of the tyburn rd proprty it was a very large premise for
accomodation and large grounds along with the coffee shop and the booking office that wthere
so may be what you found may have been the lodgers
and may be sue only took the jels name but yoursis with the a . and sues with the e;
and thats why i am not sure which way to go onthis
i would really like your advice on this please if you feel you can offer
best wishes astonian ;;;
 
Re: william george jelf -- mary ann hughes

hello astonian,

i certainly believe that this is the correct marriage. the spelling is of course incorrect but remember this was 1885 and there were many spelling errors in the past.

looking at the electoral rolls george jelf was listed at 37 great hampton st. in 1912, 1920 and 1925 with another abode listed as 122 tower rd. aston.

in 1930 and 1935 he is living in tyburn rd. as you know.

all the best, shera
 
Re: william george jelf -- mary ann hughes

139 lichfield rd. aston

george jelf 46 married 25 yrs. 7 children all living. refreshment house keepers. working on own account at home

mary ann jelf 44
george jnr. 23
john 16
ernest 14
william 11
ivy 6

all were b. bham. the fact that they had been married 25 years confirms the 1885 marriage
 
Last edited:
Re: william george jelf -- mary ann hughes

hi shera
many thanks for giving the extra help on this
i really do appreciate it
yes i was aware of the rest of the familys
of all there address and ages previous years
going futher back down the line with them all
apart from one and that was the lad age 16 yrs old
the only young lad i was aware of was john
my mothers first child whom died at 2 yrs old
i was not aware of another john
still i will try and resolve where he fits in
abit later on
once again shera you are a true scholar and a gentleman best wishes astonian ;;;;;
 
hi guys
I have tracked down and received a photo copy of my grand fathere and the other couple of members in his family
from a relative whom his a member of this forum but she his not regular as she works hard and does not have much time ;
i have over the period of time sent her an EM and many times we reply tpo each other but i am yet to meet in person ;
so now i know as well there as many people been are intrested in the jelfs family i still have more on these people to show
so now i have got my son to down load a copy ; thanks to him and my relei ; jayne i can put them on ;
have a nice day every body ; astonian
the picture shows my grt grand father and of him self along with another couple of brothers and friends out side the banna ovens
in old jamica row which was published in the old brum magerzine i would very much appreciate it if any body as a copy of the story behind it
i do not know the year it was published but it was our parents aunty whom i beleive it was arther,s daughter [ irene jelf ] was the manager for them;
irene is the mother of jayne my relie and her grand dad is bottom on the right
my grand father is ernest jelf second on the left at the back also i have a picture of mary ann hughes ;[jellf ] what year again i do not knpw also a
picture of ivy jelf in her garden and in her living quarters above the coffee shop of 901 tyburn rd erdington;
may i also add to an old thread by lucky brum and a willoby the names they mentioned are kate and elsie jelfs are part of the jelfs family history
katey was responible for my mother and her mom for the stage dancing whom is connected to the perks of nechells with her dance school all those years are back and when they danced in the rocky lane canteens and her aunty perks had the school of dancing i think it was nechells park rd way back in time
of the early1900s and katie was the grand daughter of old lady perks whom ended up in a wheel chair at sefton rd edgbaston;
at one time my mother said she beleived when katie got grown up she lived in shakespear rd and she had a job as a insureance collector for some company in brum . but i cannot think of here name i did happen to see katie that day she spent hours in our house at king edwards rd talking about there carrers and the stage dancing around the country she said katie was at her height in her carreer of dancing of tap and stage danceing ;
best wishes astonian .


mr jelf banna ovens jamica row ;

jelf-photo.jpg



mary ann jelf [ nee hughes

jelf-1.jpg

mary ann hughes nee jelf

JELF-2.jpg


great grand father mr jelf outside the banna ovensjamica row
on the left

JELF-3.jpg


miss ivy jelf sister to the jelfs brothers
never married up in her living quarters tyburn rd shop

ivy-jelf-2.jpg
 
Re: william george jelf -- mary ann hughes

Hello Astonian [Alan],
As a newbie to this fantastic forum, I reckon if I spend 40 hours a week for the next five years, I may just catch up with most postings!

However, your name crops up many times, as does the name Jelf, which are your family I believe.

I attach a picture taken at Aston Cross, showing Jelf's Crockery Hire and refreshment house, and my question to you is, is this part of your family?

kind regards, Ray.s Crockery Hire Service.JPG
 
Good morning fujifreak
I hope you are well as i am estatic this morning over seeing the mos picture i ever wanted
I have been wanting for many years since i have been on this site and scouring many avenues
You have made my day and i hope you do not mind i am going to down load it to photograpic parer today
and frame it ;
on the question of is this my relatives ; this most certainly his this was one of there first propertys of the thirty three bussiness
they owned in fact it would have been there flag ship of the family of jelfs whom as i have said along and along aston rd north being
Aston cross from there down to nechells and park lane and lichfield rd lodge rd hockley tyburn rd hockley
even in te burlington arcade in the city and snow hill the name places go on ;
it was all started by my great grand father whom died on my birthday sept 1935 and it was taken over by the oldeest son Arther
and it was slowly taken over by charleswhom had the booking offices and cafe on summer lane and vila street and then the other brothers got older they all had shops along with the chippies; the crockery hire and done all te big catureung for the GPO ; the town hall AND ALL THE HIGH SOCIETY ; THEY HAD TWO BIG WARE HOUSES FOR ALL THERE FOOD PROVISIONS FOR THERE BUSSINESS OUT LETS
They had big bed and breakfast out lets as well as you have probly read before now of my threads
they was grand masters of the society of the aciant order of the druids along with there involment with the legal systems of our society ;
the main ones was arther and charles and there father and his father befor hand whom was resonible for the hanging of a certin gentleman in 1925 for murder he sent for albert piepoint to hang him at worc ail wher they orinate from they supplyed brum during the war years with provisions
Alot of people never knew bhind the scenes of this bunch of brothers and they never really spoke to each other even thou they all lived about a mile between there shops and homes the father was the main man whom set them all up he lived in a big house in handsworth some where my mother told me
as she used to go visiting him with her parents there father bought mr patterson resturant in the war years or just after which was in the grt western or the burlington arcade in those years later patterson and hughes got together which there name still goes on i beleive [ that being patterson and hughes]
and they grew and grew right up until 1970 when my grand father took over all the brothers bussiness,s when they died one by one
he bieng a womaniser started to sell off the shops one by onein order to keep is life systle and travell around with the stars like bill cotton and we georgie wood and i think the third was sandy powell ;his wife y grand mother berth victoria hinton was also a wealthy lady whom married my grand father
they kept a monkey and transported it around in a gage whereever they went ;over seas or where ever they went
if you was to tap into his name the fathere on googleyou will learn more about him and his postion he held
sorry to waffle on but as i have said i am estatic about this pic fuji and you have got me going now ;
but i had better stop here okay ;thanks a million fuji have a nice day alan;; Astonian;
 
Hi ray ;
I hope you are well as i am myself especialy seeing the old coffee shop which nce our family members ;
i have been grosley intrigued by seeing this pic;and i got thinking about it ;and i as wondering how you come by it ;
as far as i know there would have been one person ; whom may have this picture and tat would be uncle george whom is still alive i beleive
and he is in his ninetys i have not heard any think about him possible passing over
I went to his house about four years back and spoke with him and he topld me he the photographs of all the shops ;of his father had had
And also my mother whom he was close to and my father very well; i also recall my mother telling me of another jelf whom she beleived to have lived in small heath ; many , many years ago; but she could not recall where about in smal heath thats why i was questioning and thinking to myself
how or where you obtained a cracking picture and would you have any more of such kind of the shops
also i am asking myself would you be related to jayne ; i sincerely hope youdo not mind me asking in an inquis mind and i hope you do not feel offended
In any way or shape if so i opologise to you for even tinking this way ;
but ray it does not matter as i am estatic of finding this brilliant pic of the flag ship coffee house i have taken it to my younger brother whom is the spitting image of george ;and i cannot thank you enough for it should yopu want to respond to my thread in private you can come through the notifaction section and i will give you my personal EM address ;many thanks ray ; i hope you have a cracking week end i myself are off to hamms hall car boot
in the early hours of the morning ; best wishes astonian;; Alan''
 
Hi Alan,

I have to say your memory does you proud, the minute details you recall leave me astounded.
With regards to the picture, I have a few thousand on file and the reason I have that one was the bus. My Father worked for the old BCT Birmingham City Transport. He was based at Highgate Road and his main working route was the Inner Circle Eight.
So having the picture was a fluke really. Reading the posts, and yours in particular, the name Jelf jumped out at me whilst I was going through my old pictures.
Just sheer coincidence that my bus picture captured the Jelf business premises, but I am pleased it was of some use to you.
Keep posting away Alan, you make a fascinating read.
Kind regards,
Ray.
 
HI Ray
many thanks for your reply ,you may call it a fluke or not but to me i did not care what you called it for many years i always hoped that one day i would get one of the aston cross one from the day i enrolled i spoke with old george jelf afew years back at his house he is in is ninetys he as got history to his name
very much in birmingham and across the country [ politicaly ] and his father but when i went to see him we spoke briefly about the family history and told me how he andmy mother was the only child and how close they was as mom often remeisend about her growing up with george and raymond jelf the accamdic one
the oxford councillor but any way george told me he had all the pics of all the jelfs coffee houses but he was never gonna part with them as you know i was born just along the rd from these coffees shops and we was involved because of our grand father and mother being whom they was as you know there was one or two along the aston rd going back years one was called thomas cafe which i have a early picture of which was pased along the fam,ily of brothers
also i am after the ones along across the rd in park lane facing the billard hall and the one down lichfield rd heading towards the station which i beleive was eventualy sold off to another member of the family connections and she was living close to the coffee shop on lichfield in a batch of houses and the shoe repairers
by a guy called a harold lloyed whom was shacked up with the sister of the jelf family brothers and she alledged that her mother bought the coffee shop on lichfield rd from ivy the sister but they changed it and turned it into a flower shop on the forum she was named flower girl and she gave her story about how she sat in the window daily but flower girl as not been heard of since so i cannot get a picture of that shop either which i would like also i would dearly like to get one of number 1 new cannal street one the main hub for the family it was on the corner of bordesly street if any one can get me onei would be very happy man and over the moon thats where my mom was brought up and ran away to marry the poor man from aston;whom was my father i hasnt to say ;
i now have reason to beleive flower girl was a relative member some here involved harold whom eventualy lived with ivy for many many years and i was told he died before she did but according to ivys will he had left and was living in at addrees in liverpoolbecauseshe left a large amount to him and had it sent to liver pool which i have the addrees still not to worry its water underthe bridge i ve lost my older brothers and my mother and father but i would dearly like to get those extra pics if it was possible i am happy to say and thank god that you fluked it gave me great pleasure i have just remembered on more i would dearly love to get and that would be out side the bottom of park street and the bottom of wainwright street i beleive there was a news paper cutting of a big picture of father christmas travelling down park street by the vine to go up wainwright st where the big sign of jelfs coffee house is on the wall and emediately there was steps you would have walked up to enter the coffee shop was my mother and father youg looking at father christmas best wishes Alan Astonian;
 
Hi Alan,
I have read your post and will start to search my images, but alas, I am off on holiday tonight, so will have to start my search when I return.
I will keep in touch and let you know the outcome.
Ray.
 
Re: william george jelf -- mary ann hughes

Hello ray,

Just wanted to say how thrilled I am to see this picture of Jelf's.

I am Astonians cousin. My Mom was a Jelf and spent most of her childhood in the cafe in the picture.

Mom spent a lot of time looking though books of old Birmingham trying to find pictures of jelf cafes in particular the one in your picture.

Mom died in 2010 so to be honest the picture did reduce me to tears as she would have been so pleased so see it

Thanks again for posting

Jayne
 
Hi jayne
All the brothers owned that shop over the years from grand fathers years it was pased all down the line right up to ernest last in the line for
brothers the shortest member of the brothers to hold on to it was william mom had said he could not handle the bussiness so he then handed over
to ernest my grand father this is in the fiftys i think it was the mid fiftys where after a stint sold it to lathams the decorating and wall paper bussiness
because he never neded it because he had the provisions and ware housing behind 235-7 park lane just across the rd behind the fish and chip shop and the coffee barr next to each other along with new cannal street where him and my mom was living along with the one down the lichfield rd all at the sametime
plus there was other shops operating at the same time around brum and on snow hill by the station;
it was when berta victoria hinton ; [nan jelf my moms mother died in 1953 that he found a comanpion lady for him self which we beleived the reason as to why he started to sell off the bussiness ; other wise they would not have been sold any of them he only kept the crockery hire bussiness right up until he died in 1969
where he fell ill and lost the bussiness in 1970 at his death we he came and lived with my mother after forty years of disowner he then he conned her ;
thats the shop where our aunty maud smart met her husband bill smart whilst she was working for he jelfs she was my dads sister and they lived afew doors from carl chinnsand he was only a kid ; bill was working for the old corporation doing and fixing the old steel kerb stones ; way back then
they celebrated 60 years of marige before she died there was a big picture of them on the day of there aniversary done by the evening mail
i have also got some different pictures to show you when we meet up ;
jayne ; i am off to nuneaton today but i will speak again soon ; [ by the way i got your em ; i hope you got mine best wishes Alan;
 
HI RAY ;
I Hope you do not mind me contacting you and i hope you are back off your holidays and that you have had a good one yes again many thanks for putting
up the picture for my cousin and myself [ jayne ] i hope you do not mind me asking again have you got any more you can find for us also could i asked you or sherea is it possible that could you confirm 139 is a house or is it the coffee shop on the lichfield rd as that one was ancesters and there great grand fatherts thomas;s tea rooms he lived around in sandy lane in those early years with in board lodgers he had also thomas had one on the aston rd north just along from there for years and arther and the boys took it over one by one ;
but i woulod dearly love to know is 139 a house or the coffee shop we celebrated the queens coronation in there grand father brought the whole of crpmwell terrace in there all the familys and the kidsalso there was a billard table installed for customers way back in those early years it was a penny a game in those days they had to ut in to get the balls out to play ;
ray i hope you do not mind me contacting to soon after your holidays
best wishes Astonian;;
 
hi carolina ;
what would you like to know or can you tell me ;i can most certainly tell you yes she had a sister called ellen indeed
and she bought a fish and chip shop at spring hill on ickneild street just across from the spring hill libary way back in i think it was 1957-8-9
my mother and myself both worked for her to help her out when she first bought it we just lived along the rd from the shop at springhil we lived
king edwards rd at that time the more i think of the period it would have been around the 58 year because my father had died then he was not
around then i worked in the back cutting up the fish and roe and doing the spuds and filling up the pans mom done the serving ;
best wishers Alan;; Astonian;
 
Alan, the Ellen I was talking about is much older, sorry my mistake. She was born 1867 and married Arthur Biddulph and ran the Duke of York Pub in Aston. The reason why I asked was because I had got some photos of Ellen, but it appears its not related to yours. Carol
 
hi carolina
in answer to your question i have not got that far back yet but if my memory serves me corectly the bidoths was money lenders and if the pub you are mentioning is where i think it is around that time in that paricular area there was a few jelfs knocking about along that stretch of rd
they was the in the legal proffesion; and there great grand fathers was living down that side of the woods and one or the others had previously been married
which one i do not know as our dear old friend from the forum afew years back namely [ cromwell ] at one point did say the jelfs was into relationships
judgeing by the records i do not have emediately to hand records like the rest of you or most of you members on the forum
i have to try and get myself into memory guide so to speak;at the time i have spoken to you about the chippie shop all i can say at what i was going by was mom said she was some kind of aunt to her but what i i do not know i only presume she was one of the jelfs as regarding mary ann hughes and mary ann jelf i have not ventured into whom her sisters are if you look into the birchfield rd [ six ways asonyou will find a rake of the jelfs familyall congregated along there
in and around the period you are speaking about and all from aston coming from aston and perry barr and handsworth thats where the great grand father lived in a big house with servants as mom said she was takenthere with her parents and i do knopw that the bidophs was mentionioned years ago unfortunely i havelost the records that cromwell gave me on this forum and yes i can recall the name of the stories with the biddophs involved down the old birchfiekld rd and the
family you have mentioned but i will now pursue this line as from monday have a nice week end as it promises to be a good one
best wishes Astonian;; Alan;
 
Hi Alan,
Sorry to be so long in sending this reply to you but have been tied-down with holidays and happy family matters.
I am still ploughing through my pictures, and should I come across any relevant to you or your family, I will contact you.
Do you remember the picture I sent you of Rocky Lane Aston Cross, well I have found the book it came from so I am attaching a piccy for you.
You will see that Jelfs get mentioned in the write-up in the book called 'Birmingham Buses & Recollections' by David Harvey, page 30.
Hope this is of use to you.

Kind regards,
Ray.Jelf Rocky Lane Aston.jpg
 
hi carolina
today i am hoping to find out the answer today from a member of the jelfs whom i have never met so i am hoping this ellen is connected i know that the jelfs from my side may have been connected i know my mother mentioniond to me the bidduphs as they lived down the rd from us many years ago ;
i am meeting up at 11 30 in brum so i hope to get some results i will confirm at a later date best wishes i know mentionioned to me about her family and life saying friends with the lord clifton and possible the duke as my old man used to do alot of relief in the local pubs as well; when not running the golden cross on aston cross for the dodds best wishes Astonian; Alan;
 
Hi Carolina
I hope no-one minds me bringing back up this old thread from 2013 regarding carolina
Asking me whether mary Ann hughes had a sister called Ellen
And i would like to reply bck to her on this one ,
And i would like to say is all that i know is she was maried to one of my mothers family namely
George jelf as my mother was related as she is a jelf , joyce ivy beatrice jelf , the one and only child to Ernest jelf
And bertha hinton but mary ann hughes became mary ann jelf born 1867 and died 1946
george died 15 sept 1935 , and by coincidence ho it worked out really
he died on the 15 sept my birthdate and she died the day after
I have just been handed an old photograph of mary anne jelf , nee hughes and a it contains her being taken with
miss Ivy Jelf there sister of the jelf brothers the only girl in the family
She was young , meaning Ivy , and mary ann in old age , and right up until day i do not know much about her at the
moment as to where she came from and i will be trying my best to learn more of where she came from
as she as lived with every member of the jelfs family from day one righ up until her death in 1946 the year i was born,,
I do have some beleif that she was connect to an lady by the name of bannings from stoke prior worc
and that the bannings and the hughes had both got small holdings of farm land in cow honeybourne
and they was close neibours in the very village by the fleece inn worc
So really and truly i cannot answer carolina question as ellen was her sister
I can only say i think there was an ellen and a jon hughes in the 1800,s stoke prior eversham in those periods
I wouldlike lovely to for some one whom may be able to help to excactly where she came from
any suggestions or any connections from any other hughes that might reconise her or resemble some one
I have enclosed an old black and white photograph of her in old age with the stick
and with miss Ivy jelf when she was young and she was the secretary for the jelfs business,s
Across birmingham in the early 1930,s
best wishes Alan,,,, Astonian,,,,,,
 

Attachments

  • IVY JELF - MARY ANN JELF - NEE HUGHES.jpg
    IVY JELF - MARY ANN JELF - NEE HUGHES.jpg
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Hi Carolina
Many thanks for coming back to me on this one at first i thought it might have been mary ann jelf , nee hughes
but it strikes the fashion of her in an early presentation she wore a long coat and a hat simmuraly to her
whom lived with all the jelfs after her husband died in 1935 and she died the day after my birthday
Now the ellen whom ran the springhill chip shop i cannot say it was her and if i think more of it in my mine i beleive she lived in
scotlandmy mother said but she was related to some one within the family that was correct
i have decided to contact raymond in oxford within the next couple of days
and to asked him does he recall where mary ann orinates from as his father was bill jelf { william } even thou they was not very much
into the jelfs as bill old ever owned and ran one shop , mom said he could not Hackit he was just the run around
for the rest of the brothers but i thought he was moms cousin number 1 and would have met mary ann many times than my mother
even thou ray and my mom was close growing up as lids together he went to the Grammour school mom had a private schooling
from the age of five as her patents was very rich inded and his side was the poor relations at that period
but ray became a top dog in our society today and very highly succesfull big time
but any way i will not ramble on but yes thanks again for putting up the picture and i will down load it for future reference
for when i speak to ray best wishes carol , Alan,, Astonian,
 
Hi ray and pauline horton
many thanks for that old photograph you have put up of my mothers family and my ancestors
whom throgh out as ran that shop from when it first put there so to speak
I beleive from my mothers stories as a child growing up and was very close knitted family
Being the five brothers or so and the one sister whom was there company secretary miss ivy jelf
whom from one reason or another never married but had a relationship with an old cobbler on lichfield road
facing robbo,s and dents shop whom had a little shoe repair shop is name was albert lloyed from liverpool
whom moved into her coffee shop at tyburn road , Holly lane erdinton with her for many , many years
which i may add caused big trouble with ivy from her brothers they disagreed with him
and they voved not to cross the freshold of her dwelling and business until he left
but any way thats another story
thank you for giving me the name of the book , i will try and track it down to purcahase
i have just re turned a thread to carolina and it says about the one brother bill , young william
and said he could not run a shop well thats the one my mom told me off he could not handle it
and never ran another shop in his life until he died in the 1970,s i beleive
I belive it was george senior whom took over it firstly from there father when he died he had the tyburn road one as well
and he and the family lived there as well this would be his first son george whom in turn had another son by that name as
but any way arhur and charles and geoge and my grand father ernest as owned it and ran it
along withe the other ones along aston road nort by the post office
i notice it said 105 aston road north rocky lane
because across on park lane just passing the lights and the chemist on the oppersite side there was a chip shop
and the opening down a drive and right next to the gates was another of there shops with boarders living in there as well
and down that drive was a huge ware house full of provisions for all there outlets around birmingham and
a huge garage work shops for there cars and vans it was a two story one plus an one up and down little house
whom i beleive they rented it a mrs mack she was a little lady as i recall of her
but they actualy done many years later right up until 1969 they operated as the crocery hire business
still going strong doing al the big business for the council house and the gpo as it was in new hall street
right up until 1969 when my grand father taken ill and died there was cut glass and silver ware
and all the other silver ware and it was taken by persons unknown and the office was wrecken
my mother was the only child to ernest and it was surposed to have been hers but the vultures went in ,
and took the lot
ray sorry for getting carried away it all comes back to me asif it was testerday
still i have been looking for photographs of all there out lets but i only jhave a couple at the moment
so yes hanks again ray and i will try and track that book down
thanks a million Astonian,,,,, Alan,,,
 
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