totally agree with you superdad...as said earlier i was at the church a couple of years ago and i am sure i saw a few headstones dotted around...so sad
lyn
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Holy Trinity Church Bordesley.
- Thread starter Jill
- Start date
lyn
apologies if this interesting link has been posted before
no it does not jan..the obvious place would be witton what gets me is if you look at my street view on post 89 just how steep the grave yard must have been as it must have been where the duel carriageway is now. its easily checked on on the scottish maps overlay..just cant work it out
lyn
Id like to know that too, there must have been a public / paupers graves. My ancestors werent rich and the period 1857-1863 was a period of chaos for the family. The husband and wife were living separated and she died in 1860 and was buried here and he died a few months later (probably picked in Alcohol if you get my drift) - both were aged 44, and I doubt their kids would have had the funds to pay for both funerals in such a short amount of time. I haven't even got a death cert for my Gt Gt Gt grandmother because her useless husband never registered her death (again probably stewing in alcohol - he died of pneumonia and gangrene of the lung) - all I have is her burial record. It would have been natural causes as there is no coroners record as was the case with her son who died 3 years later after collapsing in the street and died on the spot - aged 27.
All I have is that she was buried in this graveyard. She just disappeared from history. And this is the proverbial cherry on the cake.
I am assuming that when the roads were widened that the affected graveyard/graves dug out and moved as the road is lower that than the remaining graveyard. If this is the case they must have been moved.
Its appalling that they were treated in this way. In life and in death.
MWS
from Bham
There are numerous mentions of the closure and subsequent uses of Holy Trinity in the newspapers.
In 1967 (7 Jul, Bham Daily Post) police were urged to keep a closer a watch on the graveyard because of vandalism.
In 1973 (12 Mar, Bham Daily Post) the graveyard is mentioned as being treated as a wasteland, the haunt of vandals.
And in 1990 (22 Jun, Bham Mail) it was reported that the excavation of remains took place and were reburied at Brandwood.
I don't know if that was all of them or if any happened previously, it's not easy to find the right combination of words to get the right results (with holy and trinity).
In 1967 (7 Jul, Bham Daily Post) police were urged to keep a closer a watch on the graveyard because of vandalism.
In 1973 (12 Mar, Bham Daily Post) the graveyard is mentioned as being treated as a wasteland, the haunt of vandals.
And in 1990 (22 Jun, Bham Mail) it was reported that the excavation of remains took place and were reburied at Brandwood.
I don't know if that was all of them or if any happened previously, it's not easy to find the right combination of words to get the right results (with holy and trinity).
hi lily totally sympathise with you...so many of us have got ancestors who have had their remains removed...its just not morally right..however i noticed you say you cant locate a death record for you gt gt gt grandmother so if you would like to give us her name we can ask our members to double check this for you
lyn
Thank you I would appreciate this. Her name was Esther Hudson nee baker
Born around 1815 (baptised at st martins 21st of September of that year.
Death unknown date but buried 5th feb 1860 at holy trinity church bordesley. Abode brass street. Age 44
Her husband George died 28th July 1860 buried 5th august at holy trinity church bordesley after a pneumonia 3 weeks and gangrene of the lung. Residence fordrough street. His death was registered by his daughter in law, not by any of his 5 children. Age 44
There is nothing on the gro for Esther in neither name for that period. She does not appear on any census records after 1851. The age fits and they I know they were living separately at the time of her death probably from 1857/8, when her husband was taken to court by his employer for not fulfilling his duties as a sword grinder due to his drunken habits and gaoled for a month.
I just feel so sad for her. 44 is a nothing age to die. I’ve checked newspapers for the period and she is just a literal ghost. Nothing. It’s like she never lived other than her baptism records.
Ironically I can’t find gro records for the birth of any her sons (William is pre gro in 1835, but George 1840 and James 1843 should be, but strangely I can for her daughters, Mary Ann and Esther. neither daughters ever married as far as I can see,
Esther b. 1851 is my gt gt grandmother through her only son William b 1875. Her daughter Ann died 1872 aged 2.
I feel connected to Esther senior, as her life was hard and apparently chaotic. Lots of house moves and I dunno, it should have been different. Her husband had a trade. A good one for the time and yet, she lived in abject poverty and her kids were undoubtedly affected. It was what we would call today a dysfunctional family. william died suddenly at 27, George became a habitual criminal, in and out of prison for the rest of his life who also lost an arm around 1863, James married and died at age 34. Mary Ann didn’t appear to Marry, but moved in with the bloke next door Samuel green around 1863 and established themselves as man and wife which actually seemed stable. And Esther lived with her and her family until she moved in with her son, his wife and their children. As I said neither girl married.
All these are facts, which when read objectively tell a rather unpleasant story probably one which was rather common at the time.
Thank you for this. If they are reinterred at brandwood, I could take a trip down to there as it’s not far from my mothers, and see what information they hold and where
When I was last there,they had moved the office from woodthorpe end to the new site by ickneild road?? Which is kings Heath /kings Norton way
pjmburns
master brummie
Sorry we posted at the same time
hi lily you have most likely spotted this already but on george and esthers son james marriage cert dated 1862 it does not state that george is deceased..having said that maybe james either forgot to put that down or if he was estranged from his dad did not know he had died
lyn
lyn
He’s definitely dead and it was the right person, Not sure why he did this, I’d have to go recheck the record. But the death certificate for George senior, was registered by Priscilla Hudson, Latimer street, which is correct. She was the wife of the eldest son William and the address is absolutely right. James would have been 17 or thereabouts and he was at that address in 1861. Maybe he didn’t want to explain, as i expect there would have been gossip at the time, and George jr, would have been been convicted for the theft of the caps, and was about to be convicted in 1863 for coin counterfeiting. Can’t blame him really for evasion if those were his reasons.
My gt grandad, put his dad down as Samuel Hudson, when in fact, Samuel green was his uncle. It’s down to shame I guess for being illegitimate or to record the man who he Felt was a more father than father figure to him to honour him, Very human I guess,
But it’s an. Interesting theory that they kept it from the younger members of the family. They were dealing with a lot in 1862/3. By April 1863 William was dead, his daughter died a month later and by 1867, Priscilla herself died in the workhouse infirmary.
pjmburns
master brummie
Do you mean Elizabeth who is on the 1861 census as his sister? She seems to have died in April quarter 1863.
No. Elizabeth was Mary Ann’s illegitimate daughter who was born in the workhouse infirmary. she was the reason I connected the family to Tyndall street and tied up some research concerning the crimes of George jr on the back of that. Elizabeth died of mealses in June 1863, a month after her cousin Emily. Aged 4.
Williams daughter was called Emily who died in May, a month after her father’s death of some easily curable illness today I have the death certificate, but it’s on my other device. She was 2. She was his only child. Her mother Priscilla died 4 years later in the workhouse infirmary of some sort of lung disease. Probably the same as killed her husband (who collapsed in the street after coughing up blood)
Both kids died at Latimer street.
As I said 1860-1863 for this family had so much death and despair.
I really don’t think there is one. I’m not sure I’ll ever solved the mystery of why she died in brass street. All I can think of it was the address she lived with her kids, and they moved to Latimer street after her death. George was living apart at this time,
He would have been responsible for reporting her death, even if estranged and I think he was quite capable of not allowing anyone else to so so in the family. He wouldn’t let his sone who worked with him in 1857 to work and this is in a newspaper report. if he wasn’t working at his place of trade as he was the master if you get my drift. I don’t think he cared about the girls, so Esther registered their births as I said - so Esther registered both but the boys, they births weren’t registered at all.
I get the impression he was not particularly pleasant as a person, particularly when drunk.
Her last child Esther was born in 1851 I think So I think unlikely, possible but unlikely. Plus she was separated from George. I am more inclined to think stress / poverty related illness, or lung issues statistically. She died in February so I’m thinking very wet, rough and cold. Probably caught a chill and turned into pnemonia I really don’t think she’d want to be around George. So unless there was another bloke. If it suicide, a coroner would have been involved I think. If she died in The street, the same.
I found the death certificate for Emily, aged 2 died in the May 1863 of diphtheria. So, in April 1863, William died from collapse and throwing up blood, April, his daughter died of diphtheria, and in May Elizabeth of measles, all the worst illness in one house in a 3 month period.
That said, back to Esther senior, her son George jr, seemed to love his mother and defended her took her side in one of the articles from 1859. (George sr prosecuted his son for assault, and he was jailed a a very short amount of time as a consequence). The assault happened at least twice as was reported in the news. So likely a common occurrence.
Thank god jr was such a rogue he made the Birmingham newspaper frequently. Despite his frequent prison visits. He kept in touch with his sister Esther, and it was she who recorded his death in the workhouse infirmary in 1902. Esther was living her son and wife, and his ever growing family in heaton street. (In the end they had 11 children).
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If his mother was alive, I very much doubt George jr would have gone much further down the criminal road as much as he did. He had a trade (sword polisher and could Have progressed to a sword grinder/cutler). But he lost his arm, before his first serious imprisonment at Woking (which was a prison for invalids), and the only other trades I have for him are hawker or French polished when he was in prison.
So Esther was definately gone. Just not registered as should have happened.
So Esther was definately gone. Just not registered as should have happened.
Amazing photos Lyn. Looks like a tomb in the second photo. Wonder where all the remains were moved to (Presuming this was Holy Trinity's graveyard at one time).
viv i think one of the previous posts says the remains are at brandwood end...its definately holy trinitys graveyard again previous post gives us the overlay post 82...just found this one of trinity terrace which is also on the over lay and was to to the left of the church...its still there as i drove down it last time i visited the church...i wonder if anyone can make out the inscription on that old tomb...i doubt its still there but will take a look as i want to get down there soon
Thanks Lyn, shall add info to the reinternment thread.
