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Midland Red Early Days

2010-04-10 14:07:18

Startin Pictures. :shocked:

Thomas Startin Jnr Ltd made hearse bodies (appropriate word!) and ambulance bodies for Austin 1920s-1950s. Here are five examples:

92FLU (1926 Austin 20/4 hearse);
JB8819 (1935 Austin 18 ambulance);
RC6895 (1938 Austin 6 ambulance) seen on 15 Aug 2009 at National Code Centre (Bletchley Park).
HFO418 (1952 Austin A125 Sheerline ambulance) seen in 2003 at Alton.
WWP38 (1959 Austin DA1 Sheerline ambulance) seen in 2004 at Drayton, preserved (by "205 Group") in City of Birmingham Fire & Ambulance Service livery as fleet number 207,

[I’d much rather show you a preserved Startin charabanc of 1922 vintage, but I don’t believe there are any survivors.]
 
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2010-04-10 18:31:40

Tramway and Railway World 1908.

Here is a link to an e-book version of The Tramway and Railway World (Volume XXIII January-June 1908). Once you learn your way around, it’s a treasure-trove for the public transport enthusiast. For example, on page 117 (you’ll need to enter n89 in the "Page:" window) is a report by Lieut-Col H A Yorke to the Board of Trade on a Birmingham Corporation tramway accident which occurred on 1 October (presumably 1907). There's lots of other good stuff too (on buses as well as trams and trains). Below is an image of a page advertising Milnes-Daimler and Ryknield motor buses. Have fun! :cool:
 
[FONT=&quot]2010-04-10 19:37:28

A Fly-by-Night Bus Company in Stafford 1908. :shocked:

I was thinking about doing something on the history of public transport in Staffordshire, and I came across this picture on the excellent Staffordshire Past Track website. Since I'd never heard of the Stafford Motor Service and Supply Co Ltd (SMSS) before, I did a little cyber-digging. As usual the London Gazette was good for information about the downfall of the company, but told me nothing about its formation. That's when I was lucky enough to find that 1908 volume of Tramway and Railway World mentioned in my last post, which contained a report (dated 6 Feb 1908) of the formation of SMSS. So with the help of this report, the London Gazette website and the picture caption, I've been able to piece together the following "potted history" of this short-lived company.

SMSS was established in Jan 1908 "to carry on the business of motor car, omnibus, van and cab proprietors" with a capital of £5,000 in £1 shares. The bus in the picture was put into service between Radford Bank and Stafford Common in the same month. Things cannot have gone very well, for an extraordinary general meeting on 20 Jul 1909 resolved to wind up the company. The winding up was completed at the last SMSS meeting on 22 Jul 1910. I suppose eighteen months was pretty good going for a motor bus company in those days! I wonder what became of the bus.

[Can you tell the make and model of the bus Lloyd? I can almost make out the name of the managing director on the side: it looks something like J J P Clemens. What do you think?]

[OK, it's not Midland Red. But Staffordshire was an important area of Midland Red expansion in later years, and of course it was the home of Potteries Electric (later Motor) Traction Co Ltd, one of Midland Red's "poor relations". It was also the site of the longest-lasting of George Francis Trains's weird and wonderful "street railways" in the early 1860s (between Burslem and Hanley). I'm a firm believer in exploring the early history of public transport in a particular area in order to put the later development of Midland Red services into a proper context. It's always a fascinating study too! Perhaps not everyone agrees?!?! Feel free to comment.][/FONT]
 
Updates.

I've updated the Leamington and Warwick (post #137 page 4) and North Warwickshire (post #78 page 2) stories with corrections and new information.
 
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I've been at work the last three days, 07;00-20;00. Reading but little time to add - not much to add either, such skilled research!
Don't recognise the Stafford bus, something rare like a Rykneild or the like, I'll search a few choices later. Here is the present day view of the same spot though, the houses are still there!
 
Thanks Lloyd. That's a nice view of Leonard's Croft, complete with "wheelie bins" - I love those "walk in" maps. 7 am to 8 pm? You really have been working!.

I'd never heard of Ryknield till I saw that ad a few posts back. American firm?
 
Thanks, Thylacine, for the link to the 'Tramway and Railway World' issue from 1908. I can remember going through copies in the Birmingham Central Reference Library from 1949. After I moved to London and settled down I started using the Patent Office Library in Holborn in the mid 1960s. Once you were known there you were allowed behind the counter to the stacks where you could spend all day, and find oddities that escaped the catalogues.
Ah, happy days!
Peter
 
Peter, "happy days are here again"! I love the old public transport literature - people were so ... serious about it in those days. It's a great find for me as there's very little British stuff in the Tasmanian libraries (actually very little Tasmanian stuff too!). Enjoy your browsing!
 
2010-04-11 11:07:13

Dudley Co-operative Society Outing to Evesham c 1922.

There's a wonderful picture in Midland Red Volume 1 (page 4) of the staff of Dudley Co-operative Society getting ready to depart on an outing to Evesham in the early 1920s. It must have been something of a nightmare for the organizers! We can see some 20 buses and 15 charabancs, and they all appear to be fully laden, so there must be over 1,000 passengers. Two of the buses have roof luggage racks neatly buttoned up. Most of the women seem to be waiting patiently while a few of the men-folk finish their cigarettes.

Private hire was a significant part of Midland Red operations. As the caption says: "The company handled many such large private hire ventures, both in its own right and on behalf of local municipal operators".

The registrations of a few of the vehicles can be seen clearly, others less so. Here's a list of those that I can make out:

OH1234 (foreground) is fleet number A205 (1920 TS3 Strachan & Brown B29F).
OE3150 or OE6160 (behind) is A290 (1920 ex-WD TS3 probably BRCW B29F rebodied 1921) or A131 (1920 TS3 BRCW B29F).
OE3154 (registration barely visible "above" roof rack of OH1234) is A125 (1919 TS3 Marston Ch32 rebodied 1920).
OE7311 (foreground) is A233 (1922 TS3 Startin Ch32).
OE7312 (front row to right of small tree) is A234 (1922 TS3 Startin Ch32).
OK1309 (front row behind OH1234) is A231 (1922 TS3 Startin Ch32).
HA2318 or HA2319 (to right of OE7312) is A241 or A242 (1922 Garford 20 hp Davidson Ch18).
JC15x (front row next to first bus from left) charabanc with Bangor registration (if my eyes don't deceive me!).

These identifications definitely date the picture to between 1922 and 1925 (when the Garford was withdrawn). I'm assuming that whoever captioned the picture had a good reason for saying c 1921. So perhaps it's 1922.

The most tentative identification is OE3154. The registration (which is only partially visible) appears to be OE715x or OE315x, and the only charabanc I could find that fits is OE3154. If I'm right then this is a picture of the only Marston body (ever) in the Midland Red fleet. Perhaps it's wishful thinking on my part!

The charabanc I've identified as Garford doesn't look much like one to me, but the vehicle is hardly visible.

JC15x definitely looks like a "foreigner" (the windscreen and radiator are different from those on Midland Red charabancs). Does anyone know its origin?

[What do you think, Lloyd? Get your magnifying glass out!]
 
2010-04-11 15:52:07

Richardson & Startin 1849-1850: Who Were They? :rolleyes:

I have been searching the directories for more on Birmingham coach-builders Richardson & Startin (1849-1850). The useful (but temperamental) Historical Directories website yields the following information:

White 1849:

Thomas Startin, bricklayer, 12 Baggot St.
Thomas Startin junior, bricklayer stenciller and colourer, 11 Grove's Buildings.
Richardson & Startin, coach-builders, 84.5 Edmund St and 20 Great Charles St.
Richard Richardson, wire worker and weaver and manufacturer of wire gauze blinds, court 3 Baggot St, residence Round Hills.
William Tay, livery and bait stables, 20 Great Charles St, residence 22 Great Charles St.

Post Office 1850:

Thomas Startin, bricklayer, 12 Baggot St.
Thomas Startin junior, bricklayer, 293 Summer Lane.
Richardson & Startin, coach-builders, 20 Great Charles St.
Robert Richardson, wire worker, 3 court (between 26 and 32) Baggot St.
William Tay, livery stables, 20 Great Charles St.

Slater 1852-1853:

John Startin, coach-builder, 143 Icknield St East.
Thomas Startin junior, bricklayer, 311 Summer Lane.
William Startin, bricklayer, 391 Summer Lane.
William Tay, livery stables, 20 Great Charles St.

Dix 1858:

Startin & Mackenzie, coach-builders, 240 Bristol St.
Thomas Startin, coach-builder, residence 240 Bristol St.
William Startin, bricklayer, 2.5 Mott St, residence Whittall St.
Henry Mackenzie, tool broker, 84 Steelhouse Lane.
William Tay, livery stables, 20 Great Charles St, residence 22 Great Charles St.

Morris 1862 (trade directory only):

Startin & Mackenzie, carriage-builders, Benacre St.
Henry Mackenzie, tool broker, 84 Steelhouse Lane.
Thomas Tay, livery stable keeper, 20 Great Charles St.

Coach-builders Richardson & Startin are only mentioned in 1849 and 1850, and no individual Startin or Richardson is given the occupation of coach-builder. There are several Richardsons in these years, but wire worker Robert Richardson (he's called Richard Richardson in 1849; either a misprint or a father / son situation) is my preferred candidate for Richardson & Startin partner because: [1] he is listed in Baggot St, as is Thomas Startin; [2] he "disappears" after 1850. So I conclude that the partners in coach-building firm Richardson & Startin are wire-worker Richard or Robert Richardson (court 3, Baggot St, perhaps two different people) and bricklayer Thomas Startin (12 Baggot St). This also pushes Thomas Startin's coach-building days back to 1849, which is closer to the alleged "founding date" of 1840 for Thomas Startin’s coach-building empire. It is also possible that the Startin in Richardson & Startin is John Startin (coach-builder) 1852-1862, but he is not listed in 1849-1850.

By 1858 the coach-building firm is Startin & Mackenzie (240 Bristol St) and coach-builder Thomas Startin is living at the same address. It is interesting that Thomas Startin junior isn't listed in 1858; perhaps he was living with and working for his father. We know that Thomas Startin's partner was named Henry Mackenzie, so the only possible candidate is tool broker Henry Mackenzie (84 Steelhouse Lane).

I believe that the 1888-1890 Startin Brothers "late W Tay" (livery stables, 20-21 Great Charles St Mews) are Francis and Charles Startin (second and third sons of Thomas Startin). Their elder brother Thomas Startin junior set up his own coach-building firm by 1888, and Charles Startin had a solo fling as coach-builder in 1892. Francis Startin was working as a coach-builder at Leeds by 1894. And their youngest brother Frederick William Startin isn't mentioned in connection with the coach-building trade until the 1901 census. The "Tay's yard" connection with Richardson & Startin 1849-1850 helps to establish continuity.

Here's a chronological summary of Startin coach-builders that we know about:

Charles Startin (Newcastle, Staffs) 1828 – 1835 (family connection unknown).
Richardson & Startin 1849 – 1850: Thomas Startin senior (c 1829 – 1904) and Richard or Robert Richardson.
John Startin 1852 – 1862: John Startin (brother of Thomas Startin senior?).
Startin & Mackenzie 1855 – 1864: Thomas Startin senior and Henry Mackenzie.
Thomas Startin 1864 – 1878: Thomas Startin senior with the probably silent involvement of his eldest son Thomas Startin junior (c 1850 – 1897).
Startin & Sons 1878 – 1888: Thomas Startin senior and his sons Thomas Startin junior and Charles Startin (b c 1861); possibly Francis Startin (b c 1854) and Frederick Startin (b c 1864) were also involved.
Startin Brothers (livery stables) 1888 – 1890: Francis Startin and Charles Startin, sons of Thomas Startin senior.
Thomas Startin Junior 1888 – 1897: Thomas Startin junior.
Charles Startin 1892: Charles Startin, son of Thomas Startin senior.
Francis Startin (Leeds) 1894 – 1900s: Francis Startin, son of Thomas Startin senior.
Thomas Startin Junior 1897 – 1907: Thomas Edward Linnett Startin, Ernest Henry Startin and Percy Startin, sons of Thomas Startin junior.
Thomas Startin Junior 1907 – 1920s: Thomas Edward Linnett Startin (?).
Thomas Startin Jnr Ltd 1920s – 1987.

The coach-making division was sold to S MacNeillie & Son and the motor car dealership to Startin Group Ltd (no Startin family involvement).

[I've also found a blacksmith Thomas Startin of Lower Leigh (Staffs) in 1834. This was possibly the father of Thomas Startin senior who is first heard of in Birmingham as a bricklayer in 1839. The blacksmith occupation could be an indicator of early involvement in coach-building or at least coach repair. This supposition also fits in with the general "drift" of Startins southwards towards Birmingham.]
 
Re the huge private hire. I've never studied the picturte in such depth before (unusual because I often do!) but, the vehicle you identify as HA 2318or9 looks too big to be a Garford but could be brand new HA 2348, SOS Standard / Davidson Ch32, with another one next left and another hidden by the small tree - just front nearside wheel visible.
The small black plate visible on the aluminium bulkhead under the letters 'VA' of PRIVATE on OH 1234 is the TIlling makers plate, which is visible on several others. SOS's didn't have that (obviously) and the bulkhead is smaller, so the numberplate lower (see HA 2353 on page 55 of the same book).
If so, that puts the year at 1923.
Possible JC registration - a Tilling TS3 almost certainly, but the picture pixellates too much to see any more. I'll ask Mesrrs Gray and Keeley if they kept a copy of the oriiginal.

Yes, long days at work, but a 3 day week - Thu Fri Sat this week, Mon Tu Wed next, then off till Thur of the followiing week. In Worcester too, 23 miles from home each way. Very tiring, but love the 'week off' every fortnight! My 'wind down' to retirement in 4 years and 2 weeks time! (That's only 1473 days, and discounting holidays etc that leaves 549 working days left, not counting any sickness!)

Oh, and the Stafford bus could be a Brush - compare the wheels to this Schweppes lorry.
 
The Past is a Different Country.

The 1908 volume of Tramway and Railway World is proving to be an interesting read (although so far I have found nothing on Midland Red). Here's a snippet from 6 Feb 1908 that's of interest to us:

"Mr W Steadman, late traffic manager of the Kidderminster & Stourport Electric Tramway, who has been appointed traffic superintendent at Warwick, was entertained at a smoking concert at Stourport on 30 Dec 1907 by the employees of the tramway company, and also by other residents, and was presented with a purse of gold and a painted photograph of his family."

Can anyone explain to me what a "smoking concert" might be?
 
Lloyd, re your post (#140 page 10) on Leamington & Warwick tramway general manager Robert L McCulloch. I've learned from Tramway & Railway World that he came to Warwick late in 1907 from another BET tramway: Merthyr Electric Traction & Lighting Co Ltd (where he was traffic manager).
 
Not surprised as his daughter was born there!
Re pages, this (here, now) is only page 6 to me???
 
A few additions . I have gone back to see how businesses developed, going back through other names and addresses:

Robert Richardson ( listed as robert) is mentioned with same (or similar) details in the 1839 Wrightsons, 1841 Pigotts & 1845 PO directory
1845 Henry Mackenzie is listed as an ironmonger at 57 steelhouse lane..
240 Bristol St:
1815, 1818 and 1823 Hill Ambrose wheelwright and blacksmith,,, horsefair
1829 and 1833 Hill Ambrose, coach builder, 239 and 240,Bristol-st.
1839 Arthur F.& E..coach & railway carriage makers
1841 Arthur P. & E. coach & gig builders (possibly should be F.& E)
1845 Arthur Frans. railway coach builder
20 Great Charles St
1818 Tay William, livery stables, Great Charles-street
1823 Tay William, livery stables, 14 and court 1, Great Charles-Street
1829 and 1833 Tay Wm. Livery stables no number given
1839
Tay Wm. Livery stables
TayThos.Chambers. plumber & glazier
1841
Tay Wm. Livery stables (and next door at no 19 was William Nashwood ,a blacksmith)

1845
Green Thos. Coach builder
Wilson W. pearl button & ornament maker
Tay Wm. Livery stables
TayThos.Chambers. plumber & glazier
Stenton Jobn, wholesale . paper warehouse

 
Lloyd, re Stafford bus (posts #214, #217, #224). Yes, the wheels are the same, but we see those same elaborate wheels on Milnes-Daimler, Wolseley, Thornycroft, Dürkopp and Brush of that era (Midland Red Volume 1 pages 15-19).

Mike, thanks again. You know, we started with little more than the bare name "Startin" and within a few weeks we've developed quite a story!
 
I must study the Stafford bus some more, and compare to other chassis.

Ref post #201, the Volume 1 cover picture.
This was specially comissioned for the book, and based on a photograph of Bewdley from the river bridge, with HA 2450 from page 53 superimposed.
That picture incidentally is a record of an accident, the original has the remains of a motorcyle underneath it, explaing the stream of oil running off right, and the Constable standing watch. No details of the accident survive other than it was in Bromsgrove, but Midland Red insisted that the damaged motorbike be 'blanked out' if the picture was used.
I managed to acquire a copy of the cover print when the books were in production, it is framed and hanging by my side now!
 
What a wonderful "back story", Lloyd. I never noticed the oil spill before, but I wondered what the caped constable was doing there! The caption on page 53 says "Castle Hill, Dudley" not Bromsgrove!?!? Did you ever meet the artist Sid Cooper?

I've been looking into Marston (maker of just one charabanc body for Midland Red in 1920 - mounted on OE3154). I suspect the maker was John Marston & Co (Bradford St, Birmingham). As with Startin, there were several generations (at least three) of John Marstons who were known for their hansom cabs and funeral coaches (as well as omnibuses and a curiously named horse-drawn char-au-banc!). More to come.
 
2010-04-14 12:15:26

The Marston Coach-Building Dynasty of Birmingham 1855 – 1940. :rolleyes:

Chronology (from local directories unless otherwise indicated; with additions and corrections from mikejee's post #240):

1820.04 John Marston and Sarah Smith (Nuneaton), wedding banns read.
1835 John Marston, grocer, Nuneaton.
1841 John Marston, "chymist and druggist", 69 Lancaster St.
[1845 John Marston, boot and shoemaker, 5 Brasshouse Passage (but still there 1855-1858).]
1851 John Marston, shopkeeper and dealer in groceries and sundries, Parkfield, Sedgley.
mid 1850s many Marstons around Willenhall (including one John Marston, but he clashes with 1855 carriage works).
1855 (PO directory) John Marston, Borough Carriage Works and Horse Repository, 21-25 Bradford St; residence Reservoir Rd.
1855 (Whites directory) John Marston Hunter, Borough Carriage Works, 21-26 Bradford St; residence "The Limes", Reservoir Rd. Incorrectly listed name? No previous John Hunter. Cf 1858.
1858 John Marston & Co, coach builders, 24 Bradford St; John Marston Hunter | John Marston, carriage manufacturer, residence 22 Reservoir Rd (off 146 Ladywood Rd); Jno Marston & Co, carriage builders, 23 Bradford St; J Marston & Co, 21 Bradford St, Smithfield; [John Marston, 5 Brasshouse Passage (off 6 Broad St, Islington)]. Cf 1855 (Whites).

1861 census (only Marston at Reservoir Rd, none in Birmingham with occupation carriage maker):

6 Reservoir Rd (Edgbaston).
John Marston, 27, patent medicine vendor, born 1833/4 Nuneaton.
Ellen, 20, wife, born 1840/1.
Ellen, one month, daughter, born 1861.
Three servants.

Also no John Marston with occupation carriage maker etc in Warwickshire or Staffordshire.
Mary A Marston and husband Henry Marston at 7 Reservoir Rd (Ladywood). There appear to be two parts of Reservoir Rd.

1862 John Marston & Co, carriage builders, 21-25 Bradford St.
1867 John Marston, coach builder, coach and carriage builder, 21-24 Bradford St.

1871 census:

"The Elms", Castle Bromwich.
John Marston, 67, coach builder, born 1803/4 Birmingham.
Mara A Marston, 54, wife, born 1816/7 Birmingham.
Clara F Marston, 23, daughter, born 1847/8 Birmingham.
Charles Louis Marston, 20, son, born 1850/1 Birmingham.
Laura E Marston, 19, daughter, born 1851/2 Birmingham.
Julia L Marston, 17, daughter, born 1853/4 Birmingham.

1871 (or 1872) By this time John Marston junior had moved to Knowle, Warwickshire.

1871.0929 John Marston of Castle Bromwich, carriage builder (Bradford St, Birmingham), died. Executors of his will are John Marston and Charles Louis Marston (his sons). [London Gazette.]

1872 John Marston & Co, coach builders, 21-23 Bradford St and Worcester Wharf.
1873 John Marston & Co, carriage builders and harness manufacturers, Borough Carriage Works, 21-25 Bradford St.
1875 John Marston & Co, coach and carriage builders, 21-26 Bradford St; residence "Parkfield", Knowle.
1876-1900 John Marston & Co, coach builders, 21-26 Bradford St.

1887.0722 Advertisement in the Undertakers and Funeral Directors Journal:

John Marston & Co, hearse and cab builders, 21-26 Bradford St, Birmingham. Patentees and sole builders of "the Imperial" open or closed hansom; the new patent balancing hansom, for driving either inside or out; also the new patent char-au-banc [sic] omnibus, the best party carriage for winter or summer use. 34 prizes awarded for improvements in hearses etc; also the medal at the Inventions and Liverpool Exhibitions. No 341333. The improved "patent" funeral carriage [pictured] ... £180. No 3886. Light single or pair-horse hearse [pictured] ... From £100. Funeral cars; glass-sided hearses; sheliberes; brakes; omnibuses; broughams; landaus; side-light coaches; cabs, etc. New and secondhand on easy terms. Silver-plated hearse rails for hearses, from ?s each. Patent hammer clocks, carved, £8 per pair. Wheels, bodies and carvings for the trade. For drawings and particulars apply to John Marston & Co, Birmingham.

1890 (approximately) Marston works can be seen here; you can see it expanded a little between the two maps.

1891 Census:

"Park Field", Knowle, Warwickshire.
John Marston, 57, coach builder, employer, born 1833/4 Nuneaton.
Ellen Marston, wife, 47, born 1843/4 Birmingham.
Elsee Marston, daughter, 27, born 1863/4 Edgbaston.
John Marston, son, 25, coach builder, employer, born 1865/6 Edgbaston.
Clara Marston, daughter, 24, born 1866/7 Edgbaston.
Beatrice Marston, daughter, 19, born 1871/2 Knowle.
William Marston, son, 18, born 1872/3 Knowle.
Charles Beale Marston, son, 15, born 1875/6 Knowle.

1901 Marston & Co make (?) two 22-seat single-deck top-covered two-horse charabanc bodies for Derby Corporation Transport (DCT). These were classified as "omnibuses" by 1905 and used in service. One was converted into an "omnibus proper" in 1909. They were both withdrawn in 1917.

1902-1905 John Marston's Carriage Works Ltd, coach builders, 21-27 Bradford St.
1908-1933 John Marston's Carriage Works Ltd, coach builders, 21-27 Bradford St.

1911 (approximately). A 24-page "Motor Bodies" sales brochure of John Marston's Carriage Works Ltd was issued (three-colour board cover, with eight illustrations of cars with different bodies, a photograph of a car awaiting its body and a history of the works with testimonials). A copy was sold (together with a W Parkyn & Sons Ltd brochure) by Charles Leski Auctions Pty Ltd (Hawthorne East, Victoria, Australia) on 27 Jul 2003 for Au$120. [I would like to see that!]

1914 Sale brochure of late John Marston and mortgagees. "Parkfield Estate" (Knowle) etc.
1917 Sale brochure of late John Marston and mortgagees. "The Poplars" (Knowle) etc.

1919 Marston makes 32-seat charabanc body (no C9) for Midland Red which in 1920 is mounted on A125 (OE3154 T-S TS3 chassis no 1121 new in 1919 with body no BB120 Brush B29F); chassis and body broken up 1926; this charabanc is possibly pictured in c 1923 at Dudley in Midland Red Volume 1 (page 4).

1920 Marston make a B26F body for a GMC-Edison battery-powered bus (DCT fleet number 2 registered CH1812). The bus was withdrawn in 1924, but the body was mounted on a Tilling-Stevens TS3A bus (DCT fleet number 2 registered CH4381 chassis number 3098).

3 Jul 1928. Commercial Motor advertisement:

"Distinctive ... coachwork for any chassis. Double-purpose saloons and hearses any design. Cash or terms. John Marston's Carriage Works Ltd. 21-27 Bradford St, Birmingham." [Picture of hearse.]

31 Oct 1935 John Marston's Carriage Works Ltd (registered office 21 Bradford St, Birmingham). Extraordinary general meeting resolves on a voluntary winding up; liquidators appointed: Charles Beale Marston ("Hill House", Leckhampton Hill, Cheltenham, Gloucestershire) chairman; Frederick Anthony Roberts ("Chartville", Mansel Rd, Small Heath, Birmingham) secretary and general manager. [London Gazette (5 Nov 1935).]

15 Nov 1935 John Marston's Carriage Works Ltd (members' voluntary winding up). Notice to creditors ... "all debts will be paid in full". [London Gazette.]

1936-1938 no listing.
1939 John Marston's Carriage Works Ltd, 1 or 2 Bromsgrove St, Birmingham 5.
1940 no listing.

27 Nov 1940 John Marston's Carriage Works Ltd. Last meeting to complete winding up. [London Gazette (25 Oct 1940).]

Another Marston with long involvement in the carriage trade:

1867-1868 William Marston, carriage & upholsterers trimming manufacturer, Albert Buildings, Dale End.
1872-1873 William Marston, manufacturer of carriage lace, fringes and upholsterers trimmings & warehouseman, 18 Dale End.
1876-1880 William Marston, carriage lace & trimming maker, Albert St, High St.
1883-1888 William Marston, carriage lace & trimming maker, 27 Albert St, High St.
1892-1904 William Marston, carriage lace manufacturer, 28-34 Albert St, High St.
1908-1921 William Marston, carriage lace manufacturer, 28-34 Albert St, trading as Marston.
1932-1973 (at least) William Marston Ltd, motor carriage trimming manufacturers, 28-34 Albert St, trading as Marston.

Three generations of coach-building John Marstons:

[John Marston 0 (c 1785 – c 1855).
?Nuneaton grocer 1835.]
John Marston 1 (c 1803 Birmingham – 1871.0929).
Birmingham chemist & druggist 1841, ?Sedgley grocer 1851; Birmingham coach-builder 1855 – 1871.
John Marston 2 (c 1833 Nuneaton – c 1914).
Birmingham patent medicine vendor 1861, Birmingham coach-builder c 1862 – c 1914.
John Marston 3 (c 1865 – c 1935).
Birmingham coach-builder c 1885 – c 1935. Chairman of the company by 1935 was Charles Beale Marston (brother of John Marston 3). The company was liquidated 1935-1940.
 
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2010-04-13 16:47:20 :rolleyes:

The parallels between the Startin and Marston dynasties are remarkable! Presumably many of the Birmingham horse era coach-builders tried to make the transition to the motor era (with varying levels of success).

Just to confuse matters, there was another (much better known) John Marston who was a close contemporary of my John Marston 2 (c 1833 – c 1914). This was John Marston (6 May 1836 – 8 March 1918) founder of the Sunbeam cycle, motor car and motor cycle business of Wolverhampton. This John Marston's wife was also named Ellen (Ellen Edge of Edgbaston)! I'm pretty sure our charabanc body (C9) was not made by the Sunbeam firm. As this excellent website makes clear, Sunbeam used to farm out their coach-making work. What do other Forum members think?
 
I will go through the directories, though it will have to wait till this afternoon. However marston's carriage works is marked (as carriage works) on the c 1911 OS map in Bradford St

carriage_works_Bradford_st_c_1911.jpg
 
Thanks for the map, Mike. No hurry for the directory search. That's the great thing about the study of history - it's a LEISURELY pursuit. Suited to gentlemen like ourselves!

[And gentlewomen, of course!]
 
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IF John Marston & Co are the firm who made C9 and the Derby chara and bus bodies (and we are far from establishing it), they didn't make very many. I trawled through every one of Peter Gould's bus fleet lists, and all I found were the Derby Corporation ones. If anyone knows of any more Marston bus or chara bodies, please let me know. Some better quality pictures would be good too (of buses and charas that is, not hearses!). I wonder if they made railway wagons or carriages. Any railway buffs amongst our readers?

I'm working on a little essay on the word "charabanc". More to come.
 
Glad to help. Though there is the problem that there are a number of John Marstons.
It might be of interest that there seem to be a lot of Marstons around Willenhall in mid 1850s, many padlock or bolt makers (including one john Marston, but he clashes with 1855 carriage works) .
I attach the following from directories
1841 Marston John, chymist and druggist, 69 Lancaster st
(there is also a John Marston , boot & shoemaker,5 Brasshouse passage in 1845, but he is there also in 1855 when carriage works was extant, so can be ignored)
1855 PO directory : Marston John, Borough carriage works & horse repository,21 to 25
Bradford street. Home: reservoir road
BUT in Whites 1855 directory it lists : Hunter John, Marston, Borough carriage Works
21to26, Bradford st; home.The Limes,Reservoir road, there is no previous mention of
such a person, so it is probably a wrong listing of the name, rather than a changed
name. The home address would fit in with your 1858 listing which presumably should
read “Marston, John Hunter, carriage manufacturer. .”
1861 census
John Marston (27) is listed as at 6 Reservoir road (edgebaston ) and is described as a
patent Medicine Vendor and born in Nuneaton. He is the only one in this census at
Reservoir road and none in birmingham list carriage maker as occupation.
Also at this address:
Ellen Marston wife (20)
Ellen Marston daughter (1 month)
3 Servants
Can’t find any john marston listing carriage maker or like in Warwicks. or Staffs.
Nos 21-24 are described as warehouses, (with no listed persons)
It does seem strange that the only Mary A Marston listed in Birmingham in 1861(see
1871 census below) lives with husband Henry Marston at 7 reservoir road (Ladywood)
. In fact Reservoir rd seems to be in two parts one in edgebaston and one in Ladywood
and some of the numbers are duplicated, so am not too sure of the true street numbers !!
1871 Census – Better luck living at The Elms, Castle Bromwich
John Marston (67) coachbuilder , born Birmingham
Mary A.Marston (54) wife
Clara F.Marston (23) daughter
Charles L Marston (20) son
Laura E.Marston (19) daughter
Julia L.Marston (17) daughter

1872 . Marston John & Co. coach builders, 21 to 23 Bradford street & Worcester wharf
1873 Marston John & Co carriage builders & harness manufactrs.,Borough Carriage works,
21 to 25 Bradford st
1876-1900 Marston John & Co. coach builders, 21 to 26 Bradford street
1902-5 The Marston's (John) Carriage Works Limited, coach builders 21 – 27 bradford St.
1908-33 The Marston's (John) Carriage Works Limited, coach builders, 21 to 27 Bradford
street. T A " Hansoms ; "
Not listed 1936-38 but in 1939 there is Marstons (John) Carriage Works Ltd. 2 (or 1 depending on whether you look at firm or street list) Bromsgrove st 5. However they were gone by 1940


May not be connected, but :
1867-8 Marston William, carriage & upholsteres trimming mnf. Albert buildings, Dale End
1872-3 Marston William, mnf. of carriage lace, fringes and upholsterers’trimmings. &
warehouseman. 18 Dale end
1876-80 Marston Wm.carriage lace & trimming maker,.Albert st. High st
1883-88 Marston Wm.carriage lace & trimming maker,.27 Albert st. High st
1892-1904 Marston Wm.carriage lace mnfr,.28-34 Albert st. High st
1908-21 Marston William, carriage lace manufacturer, 28 to 34 Albert street. T A" Marston"
1932-73(at least) Marston William Ltd. motor carriage trimming manufrs.28 to 34 Albert st.
T A"Marston;"
Also , the works in c 1890 can be seen at https://www.british-history.ac.uk/mapsheet.aspx?compid=55193&sheetid=10098&ox=3085&oy=2600&zm=1&czm=1&x=137&y=301 you can see it expanded a little between the two maps
Mike
 
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