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Sparkbrook 1881/1891 census

P

PJay

knowlegable brummie
I'm now getting to the point of throwing the laptop out of the window due to total frustration and a serious headache :eek: It could of course totally be me and my senior moments but if anyone could help I will be forever grateful.
I'm trying to locate an Edwin Bryan who was a shipping clerk in the 1888's and lived on Larches Street Sparkbrook (I can't find any other details, even to the point of a 50 mile radius from Birmingham city centre for a birth. Other than a Electoral role stating an Edwin Bryan lived at the back of Highgate Road). I've checked the census and can't seem to locate Sparkbrook. I've even gone through the Central Birmingham census trying to find the area to no avail incase of a incorrect name spelling. Many thanks in advance
 
. have patients do not do that (throwing the laptop out of the window) some one will help you on here.
 
in 1891 Larches Street is under Bordesley.
Edwin is listed as a grocer. Is this the rght person?
1667743190241.png
 
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In 1881 his address seems to be Highgate Lane, 21 Chestnut Avenue. He was a carpenter. The road names fit but not the occupation.
1667743337162.png
 
When Alfred William was baptised Edwin's occupation is a joiner.
Same occupation when eldet daughter Emily was baptised.
I haven't found any reference to him being a shipping clerk.
 
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Could you be refering to his son Edwin Oscar b 1860 Shipston

I have record of him in London 1881 working as Rail Porter.
 
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Alberta said:
Could you be refering to his son Edwin Oscar b 1860 Shipston
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I am not sure . I just searched for the Larches Street given in the first post. Edwin Oscar is no longer living with them by 1891. Did he go to America?
 
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Yes he did Janice he died in Wisconsin in 1945 , left England after 1881 records differ 1885-1887, he married in 1888
 
mw0njm. said:
. have patients do not do that (throwing the laptop out of the window) some one will help you on here.
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Thanks, it really helps to know that Brummie's will come to the rescue ;)
MWS said:
What was the record that listed Edwin Bryan at Larches St?
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The details were on a Will March 1888 - He was also named on a death Cert at the same address 1667748121078.png
 
Alberta said:
Could you be refering to his son Edwin Oscar b 1860 Shipston

I have record of him in London 1881 working as Rail Porter.
Click to expand...
No not that one either - I've been through all the Edwin Bryan since 1845 - 1865, 50 mile radius of Birmingham as place of birth. He's showing as a son-in-law for my great great grandfather, which is a real shock as he only had one child in 1858, but you know what these Victorians were like ;);) I think it might either be Edwin is not his first name or he was telling porkies about the son-in-law bit
 
In the Kelly's directories there are the following entries in the "court" entries ie just under name with no reference to occupation.
1667750100019.png
 
MWS said:
What was the name of your great great grandfather?
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Now this is were it gets complicated James Davis (Davies) he was born in Kingsland Hereford C1833. He had a son out of wedlock James Downes mum Jane Downes. James and Jane married in 1873 Ludlow, Both round 43 years old. The marriage cert says Bachelor and Spinster no other children to either of them as far as I can see.
Bet you wished you never asked :joy::joy:
 
PJay said:
Janice, youre amazing. I wonder why there's nothing on the 1891 census then
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See post #5
As the addresses fit (move from 144 to 147 perhaps?) is it the occupation which is incorrect. When was the will written? Could Edwin be a stepson?
 
pjmburns said:
See post #5
As the addresses fit (move from 144 to 147 perhaps?) is it the occupation which is incorrect. When was the will written? Could Edwin be a stepson?
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The Will was 1888 but the death cert also states shipping clerk.
No Edwin wasn't a stepson. - So put the kettle on, and sit down with a cup of tea as I explain. :joy:
On the death cert Edwin is the person who reported it. Its for James Davies its states that Edwin is the son-in-law which like you said could be wrong BUT James never got married until 1873 to Jane Downes (Ludlow) both around 40ish - they did have a child out of wedlock James Downes 1858. On James Snr and Janes marriage cert it states Bachelor and Spinster, we all know what these Victorians were like ;);) but its turning into a right old mystery.
What did it mean in the Kellys Directory the bit about 'court' entries
Appreciate all your help
 
PJay said:
What did it mean in the Kellys Directory the bit about 'court' entries
Appreciate all your help
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Kelly's lists several things.
1667753150067.png
Street directory is a listing by streets
Suburban - lists outer areas like Acocks Green (I don't think that is in all directories

Court - later changed to Private Residnets Directory and that lists people by name (this is where I found the two entries I posted. So it gives their name and address only.

Commercial lists people by name and gives their occupation
Trades lists people by grouping occupations.
 
There is a tree that lists Edwin Oscar Bryan's wife as a Mary Jane Davies. And there is a birth registration for a Mary Jane Downes no mmn registered Ludlow 1862.

On the 1871 census she appears to be listed as the grand daughter of Jane's mother, Mary.
 
PJay said:
The Will was 1888 but the death cert also states shipping clerk.
No Edwin wasn't a stepson. - So put the kettle on, and sit down with a cup of tea as I explain. :joy:
On the death cert Edwin is the person who reported it. Its for James Davies its states that Edwin is the son-in-law which like you said could be wrong BUT James never got married until 1873 to Jane Downes (Ludlow) both around 40ish - they did have a child out of wedlock James Downes 1858. On James Snr and Janes marriage cert it states Bachelor and Spinster, we all know what these Victorians were like ;);) but its turning into a right old mystery.
What did it mean in the Kellys Directory the bit about 'court' entries
Appreciate all your help
Click to expand...
Couple of questions.
Where did James die?
Where was the death registered?
Is this the probate you refer to?
1667754698746.png
 
pjmburns said:
In the Kelly's directories there are the following entries in the "court" entries ie just under name with no reference to occupation.
View attachment 174674
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He is in fact listed in the Kellys for their editions 1890 - 1895. Not listed at all in 1894 or 1896
Below is a 1950s map showing were 144 and 147 were in red (numbering is the same in the 1950s), and the 1881 house in the census at 19 which seems to have been occupied by 3 households (assuming numbering has no altered) in blue

map 1950s showing 144 and 147 larch st and 19 chestnut place.jpg
 
MWS said:
There is a tree that lists Edwin Oscar Bryan's wife as a Mary Jane Davies. And there is a birth registration for a Mary Jane Downes no mmn registered Ludlow 1862.

On the 1871 census she appears to be listed as the grand daughter of Jane's mother, Mary.
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Sorry I'm confused - very easily done these days. I get the Edwin married Mary Jane Davies but I don't understand the Mary Jane Downes. If it helps 'my' Jane was born 1833 Diddlebury Shropshire - thats all on James Davies and Jane Downes's wedding cert.
 
Mary Jane Downes b1862 would possibly be Jane's daughter or Jane and James' daughter. If so and she married Edwin then it would make Edwin Oscar Bryan, James Davies' son-in-law.
 
mikejee said:
He is in fact listed in the Kellys for their editions 1890 - 1895. Not listed at all in 1894 or 1896
Below is a 1950s map showing were 144 and 147 were in red (numbering is the same in the 1950s), and the 1881 house in the census at 19 which seems to have been occupied by 3 households (assuming numbering has no altered) in blue

View attachment 174680
Click to expand...
Thank you - Thats great to see
 
MWS said:
Mary Jane Downes b1862 would possibly be Jane's daughter or Jane and James' daughter. If so and she married Edwin then it would make Edwin Oscar Bryan, James Davies' son-in-law.
Click to expand...
Have you found the marriage?
 
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