Thomas Odams: Prodigal Son

[Ian Purcell]

These are a few remaining sections of Sun Street and Sun Street West in the 60's & 70's when it was part of the Inner Circle bus route.

Thanks Retired Layabout Phil (sounds like me!). It looks like all the buildings were empty. Was the area being readied for demolition to make way for the motorway?

 

[Ian Purcell]

Another photo of Sun Street / Spring Street before demolition and another photo of Varna Rd in 1910.

Thanks again Phil. The shop two doors down could well have been the bakery! The Varna Rd pic is great. Looking from Bensall Heath Rd intersection down Varna St to Calthorpe Park. The Odams' house at 69 was on the right only a few doors from the park. Ian

 

[pjmburns]

These 2 photos are not really what you asked for but are titled "view from corner of Wellington Road" and dated 1896.

Janice

 

[Phil]

A couple of early photos of some of the magnificent houses that used to be in Wellington Rd, a lot of them have been replaced now but there still are some very fine houses left.

The third photo is the junction of Bristol Rd and Wellington Rd, not as early as c1900 I'm afraid, but c1960 is more near the mark.

 

[mikejee]

Sorry Ian, I do not think that the shop in the picture is the bakers, as the bakers is no 24, which is on the north side between Bristol Road and Spring st. Although there seem to have been some changes, which make the position of this building a little difficult to determine (changes in entrances to courts and the position on the 1851 census), I am pretty sure that this is the red building on the map below

 

[Ian Purcell]

Sorry Ian, I do not think that the shop in the picture is the bakers, as the bakers is no 24, which is on the north side between Bristol Road and Spring st. Although there seem to have been some changes, which make the position of this building a little difficult to determine (changes in entrances to courts and the position on the 1851 census), I am pretty sure that this is the red building on the map below

Thanks Mike. You're amazing. Comparing the photo and the map I can see that the display windows of the shops in the photo are represented on the map by little extensions. I think this means that No 24 as identified by you would have been on the opposite side of the street to where the car is parked.

 

[Ian Purcell]

A couple of early photos of some of the magnificent houses that used to be in Wellington Rd, a lot of them have been replaced now but there still are some very fine houses left.

The third photo is the junction of Bristol Rd and Wellington Rd, not as early as c1900 I'm afraid, but c1960 is more near the mark.

Thank you again Phil. In Adelaide, magnificent homes like these were built on the terraces (eg, East Terrace, South Terrace etc) that faced parklands. They were subsequently (say in the 1950s) turned into boarding houses and student digs, but with gentrification, often restored to their former glory as homes, or medical offices.
In the third photo, is Bristol Road the one with the bus on it?

 

[Ian Purcell]

These 2 photos are not really what you asked for but are titled "view from corner of Wellington Road" and dated 1896.

Janice

Thank you Janice.
You have no idea how much the second photo looks like photos of late 19th/ early 20th century Adelaide - looking down King William (yes we were very patriotic) Road.

 

[mikejee]

I think this means that No 24 as identified by you would have been on the opposite side of the street to where the car is parked.

Yes I would agree with that

 

[Ian Purcell]

OK Brummie Sleuths - here's the next instalment of the story of Thomas Odams.

When he came to Australia in 1857 on the Algiers, he travelled with Edward and Martha (nee Dodson) Quiney. Martha died on the voyage from consumption.

William Arundel (who bought the Wellington Rd bakery from Richard Odams in 1868) in his letter to the editor of the Gawler Bunyip newspaper said that Quiney and Odams were friends in Birmingham.

The 1841 census shows the Quiney family living on Cheapside in what was then the hamlet of Deritend (see attached) [which isn't at all that far from the Odams' Sun St or Wellingon Rd residences, although when he moved to Harbourne - listed as residence on his 1849 marriage certificate, he would have been further away, perhaps suggesting that Odams and Quiney met before 1849?]. Edward was said to be 13 on the 1841 census, so he was born in either 1828 or 1829. The 1857 inward passenger list from the Algiers shows his age as 29. The 1841 census lists his mother Esther (nee Taylor) Quiney (57), Laundry, two older brothers William 21 and Raymond 18 as Brass Founders. They probably worked at the well-known Brassfounders Tonks & Sons in the next street - Moseley St (see attached). Also listed - 15 year old Emma. Emma married at 17. William married, died at the age of 25. Raymond (never married?) lived a long life as a brass founder. Listed on the 1881 census as a boarder in Kenion St, age 56. He died on 18 Nov, 1895 (see attached). Esther's mother Mary Taylor 85 also lived with them. Edward's father (also Edward?) is not listed.

William & Raymond were born in Fermanagh, Ireland. I don't know when the family moved to Birmingham or if Edward and Ellen were also born in Ireland or Birmingham. I couldn't find a birth certificate for either.

What of their missing father on the 1841 census? He is listed on Edward Quiney's 1849 wedding certificate (see attached) as living (doesn't say 'deceased') and working as a brass founder. He is listed on the reference to Raymond Quiney's death as father of Raymond. I can't find any more information about him.

On the 1841 census document under the last two columns which read 'Where Born', all the children in the family were listed as being born in England ('Y') and not in Ireland. Why, I wonder? Also, in the employment column, Ellen is listed as 'FS'. Does that mean Female Servant?

On Edward's marriage Certificate, his occupation is listed as 'Steel (something) Manufacturer'. Can anyone interpret this for me? Also I can't imagine that Edward was the owner of the firm which the use of 'Manufacturer' makes it sound like to us today. Did it mean 'maker'? Martha's father John Dodson's occupation is given as 'Wood (something)'. Can anyone interpret this for me?

Any assistance would be very much appreciated. Ian.

 

[Alberta]

On census entries Ellen Woodward nee Quiney gives her birthplace as Birmingham.

Although the fathers name on a marriage certificate does not say deceased that was not always the case
.
Esther was a widow in 1851 when she was living with Ellen and her husband Alfred in Amblecote.
records on Ancestry for Ellens marriage certificate in 1843 say that the fathers name was missing.

 

[Phil]

Thank you again Phil. In Adelaide, magnificent homes like these were built on the terraces (eg, East Terrace, South Terrace etc) that faced parklands. They were subsequently (say in the 1950s) turned into boarding houses and student digs, but with gentrification, often restored to their former glory as homes, or medical offices.
In the third photo, is Bristol Road the one with the bus on it?

Ian

Much the same happened to our larger properties here in districts like Moseley and Edgbaston, but I have to say that the surviving larger houses in Wellington Rd mostly remain in private ownership.

 

[mikejee]

Ian

May not be connected, but in the 1841 directory there is an Edward Quiney (obviously not the same one, but possibly the father), down as metal dealer at 46 Lichfield St. He is listed also in 1845 at the same address, but in the 1849 whites directory (but not the post office directory from which Quiney was absent as a name) there is an Edward Quiney, silver and german silver joint and fancy steel toy manufacturer, Cregoe Place, Bell Barn Road . This could be your Edward. I wonder if Dodson's occupation could be Wood turner (with old style T) , which possibly might make Edwards occupation as steel Toyxx manufacturer, with xx as crossing out in register

 

[pollypops]

Hi Ian,
You mention on your post #50 that Raymond Quiney died 18th November 1895.
I have found a report of an inquest into the death of a Raymond Quiney on 18th November 1895 age 73 in the Workhouse Infirmary.
I can only find one Raymond Quiney of correct age that died at this time - the burial record states he was buried in Witton Cemetery, Birmingham.
Article from the Birmingham Daily Post dated Saturday 23rd November 1895
It is quite sad but as he was not a relative of yours I thought you wouldn't mind me posting it on the forum.
Polly

 

[pollypops]

There is a burial of a William Quiney age 25, abode: Bromsgrove Street, on the 15th December 1845 at St Martins, Birmingham.
Possibly the correct William but as there are no other details on the parish record it is hard to say for definite.

 

[pjmburns]

There is a burial recorded of an Edward Quiney in 1838 at St Martins - address given as Cheapside. Could this an older relative as the age is 86?

There is also another Edward in 1846 at St Phillips -address as Lichfield Street, aged 65 and a note to say buried at St Barth... Chapel (St Bartholomew?)



Janice

 

[Ian Purcell]

Hi Ian,
You mention on your post #50 that Raymond Quiney died 18th November 1895.
I have found a report of an inquest into the death of a Raymond Quiney on 18th November 1895 age 73 in the Workhouse Infirmary.
I can only find one Raymond Quiney of correct age that died at this time - the burial record states he was buried in Witton Cemetery, Birmingham.
Article from the Birmingham Daily Post dated Saturday 23rd November 1895
It is quite sad but as he was not a relative of yours I thought you wouldn't mind me posting it on the forum.
Polly

Thanks Polly - definitely the same Raymond Quiney. How very sad.

 

[Ian Purcell]

There is a burial of a William Quiney age 25, abode: Bromsgrove Street, on the 15th December 1845 at St Martins, Birmingham.
Possibly the correct William but as there are no other details on the parish record it is hard to say for definite.

Thank you again Polly. I think this would be the same William Quiney. Age fits. 1841 census 21. 1845 Burial record age 25. Area fits as well. Not far from 1841 census listed residence in Cheapside, Deritend.

 

[Ian Purcell]

There is a burial recorded of an Edward Quiney in 1838 at St Martins - address given as Cheapside. Could this an older relative as the age is 86?

There is also another Edward in 1846 at St Phillips -address as Lichfield Street, aged 65 and a note to say buried at St Barth... Chapel (St Bartholomew?)



Janice

Hi Janice - I think the first burial record could be of the 1841 census 13-year old Edward Quiney's grandfather? The second Edward you found seems to be the same one Mike found (see post 53). An Edward Quiney - metal dealer Litchfield St in the 1841 and 1845 directory. Who would have thought there were so many Edward Quineys in Birmingham! Again - many thanks.

 

[Ian Purcell]

Ian

May not be connected, but in the 1841 directory there is an Edward Quiney (obviously not the same one, but possibly the father), down as metal dealer at 46 Lichfield St. He is listed also in 1845 at the same address, but in the 1849 whites directory (but not the post office directory from which Quiney was absent as a name) there is an Edward Quiney, silver and german silver joint and fancy steel toy manufacturer, Cregoe Place, Bell Barn Road . This could be your Edward. I wonder if Dodson's occupation could be Wood turner (with old style T) , which possibly might make Edwards occupation as steel Toyxx manufacturer, with xx as crossing out in register

Mike - I think you might have solved a riddle. I now think 'my' Edward Quiney has nothing to do with the Cheapside Quiney family from the 1841 census. His profile in Australia always suggested a middle-class background, education and opportunities in life that the son of a brass founder and laundress just wouldn't have had. I think the 'Edward Quiney, silver and german silver joint and fancy steel toy manufacturer, Cregoe Place, Bell Barn Road' you have found is the one. Is it a problem on his marriage certificate that his place of residence is listed as Harborne? Could he have lived in Harbourne and had his business in Bell Barn Road? Distance of about 3 miles.

 

[Alberta]

If your Edward was with his wife Martha on the journey to Australia it must be the one on the marriage certificate as there are no other marriages for Edward Quiney and Martha recorded and it clearly says his father is a Brass founder.

 

[pollypops]

I believe this is Edward and Martha in 1851
They have a daughter Alice 7 months (there are a few deaths for the name Alice Quiney in 1851/1852 so she may have died).
They seem to have a bit of money as they have a house servant but Martha is working (I find that unusual - is it?)

In 1851 2 Saint Martins
Edward Quiney, Head, married, age 22, Fancy Steel Toy Maker, born Birmingham
Martha Quiney, wife, age 24, Umbrella Maker, born Birmingham
Alice Quiney, daughter, 7 months
Mary Ann Asbury, servant, 14, House servant

then In the Whites directory of Birmingham 1855
Quiney Edward – Fancy Steel Toy mnfr – 2 St Martins Place

On the marriage certificate in 1849 one of the witnesses was Betsy Dodson - this could be her - living in the same area.
In 1851 living at Digbeth, St Martins
Mary Dodson, head, married, age 60 born Cheshire
Eliza Ann Dodson daughter, age 21 b.B’ham
Betsy Dodson, daughter, age 31, shop assistant, born B’ham
Catherine Nuttney, granddaughter age 11, born B’ham

 

[Ian Purcell]

If your Edward was with his wife Martha on the journey to Australia it must be the one on the marriage certificate as there are no other marriages for Edward Quiney and Martha recorded and it clearly says his father is a Brass founder.

Yes - I agree Alberta. If he is the Edward Quiney of the Cheapside, Deritend family (1841 census), the older brothers of which are also listed as brass founders, is it possible he could have set up his own business (Fancy Toy Maker) by the age of 19? I suppose so. The Australian records show that Quiney was an enterprising (if not always successful) man. Even though his marriage certificate says his father was a brass founder, the fit with the Deritend Quineys is problematic. On the 1841 census, the mother is listed as Esther Quiney 57. This is confirmed by the records found about Raymond Quiney. And yet, William Arundel in his letter to the editor of the Gawler Bunyip newspaper in 1880 says that Edward's mother was still alive and living in London and that she was in her 73rd year. It couldn't have been Esther. She would have been 96? Could there have been more than one Edward Quiney in Birmingham, born in 1828/29, with a father also named Edward Quiney who was a brass founder? Curiouser and curiouser. Ian

 

[pollypops]

I think this is why Martha was working as an Umbrella Maker on the 1851 census

From Directories
1818
John Dodson, wood turner, Cheapside
1821 and 1830
Umbrella makers
John Dodson, St Martins Lane
Umbrella stick makers
John Dodson, (and walking) St Martins Lane
1849
John Dodson, Umbrella and Fishing rod Maker, 2 St Martins Lane
1852
John Dodson, wood turner and Pen holder maker
Chunk works, Coventry Road, House 67 High Street, Bordesley
Also in 1852 Elizabeth Dodson, shopkeeper, 86 Cheapside
1855
John Dodson penholder maker, 67 High Street, Bordesley

Baptisms – Dodson – all with parents John and Mary *apart from Martha whose mothers name appears as Ann on the parish record - I think this is probably an error as all other findings match with Mary being Martha's mother.
All at St Martins apart from Joseph – his baptism was at St John the Baptist, Deritend

Year - name –abode - fathers Occupation
1814 – Jonathan, Alcester Street, wood turner
1816 – Phoebe, Cheapside, wood turner
1819 – Betsy, Cheapside, wood turner
1821 – Esther, Cheapside, wood turner
1823 – Joseph, Cheapside, Umbrella stick maker
1825 – Martha, Cheapside, wood turner
1830 – Eliza, St Martins lane, wood turner

In 1837 – 29 October – Edgbaston parish Church
Marriage of Phoebe Dodson abode Digbeth, Father John Dodson, Umbrella Manufacturer to Charles Nutting

Note: There is a Nutting child with the Dodsons on both the 1851 in Digbeth and the 1841 in Painswick

1841 census
Greenhouse Lane, Painswick Gloucestershire
All the Dodsons were listed as not born in county
John Dodson age 50 wood turner
Mary Dodson age 50
Martha Dodson age 15
Eliza Dodson – age 10
Ester Nutting – age 3
Mary Pearce – age 10

1851 census as on the above post #62
Note: On the 1851 Betsy Dodson is listed as shop assistant and in 1852 Elizabeth Dodson (her sister Eliza?) is a shopkeeper

John Dodson was not on the census with his wife Mary – I believe this is him:
1851 High Street, Bordesely
Harriet Evans, head, age 35, unmarried, varnisher, born Gloucestershire
John Dodson, Lodger, married, age 60, Wood Turner, born B’ham

There is a burial of a John Dodson, High Street Bordesley on the 9[SUP]th[/SUP] September 1855
District Church of St Mary, Birmingham

It seems John Daughter Phoebe and her husband Charles were also Umbrella makers (or carried on with her father’s business)
1861 census – 136 Digbeth - listed with their children
Charles Nutting 47
Phoebe Nutting 45
Umbrella and walking stick makers employing 7 men, 3 boys and 2 girls

Also there is a Baptism of a John Dodson son of Matthew and Elizabeth Dodson on the 12[SUP]th[/SUP] June 1791 at St John the Baptist, Deritend.


This may be Johns Mother

1841 census at Cheapside, Deritend.
Elizabeth Dodson age 85, not born in county
Elizabeth Dodson age 55, Nurse, not born in county
Mary Belamey(?) – age 1 born in county

Burial at St Mary, Birmingham
2[SUP]nd[/SUP] May 1847 – Elizabeth Dodson age 92, Cheapside

 

[Ian Purcell]

I believe this is Edward and Martha in 1851
They have a daughter Alice 7 months (there are a few deaths for the name Alice Quiney in 1851/1852 so she may have died).
They seem to have a bit of money as they have a house servant but Martha is working (I find that unusual - is it?)

In 1851 2 Saint Martins
Edward Quiney, Head, married, age 22, Fancy Steel Toy Maker, born Birmingham
Martha Quiney, wife, age 24, Umbrella Maker, born Birmingham
Alice Quiney, daughter, 7 months
Mary Ann Asbury, servant, 14, House servant

then In the Whites directory of Birmingham 1855
Quiney Edward – Fancy Steel Toy mnfr – 2 St Martins Place

On the marriage certificate in 1849 one of the witnesses was Betsy Dodson - this could be her - living in the same area.
In 1851 living at Digbeth, St Martins
Mary Dodson, head, married, age 60 born Cheshire
Eliza Ann Dodson daughter, age 21 b.B’ham
Betsy Dodson, daughter, age 31, shop assistant, born B’ham
Catherine Nuttney, granddaughter age 11, born B’ham

Hi Polly - this information is really helpful. I think this is definitely our Edward and Martha.I couldn't find them in the 1851 census or in White's so well done! Looks like Alice the daughter died. Sad that Edward lost first his daughter and then his wife. Not unusual in those days I suppose.
It's probably not unusual to find the wife working because it would have been what we would call today a 'cottage' industry, the workshop where Edward made the toys and Martha made umbrellas would have been part of their house/property.
Interesting that apart from the ship passenger list, the first public record of Quiney in Melbourne is an advert in a Melbourne paper The Age, 'ON SALE UMBRELLAS AND PARASOLS' (see attached).
It looks as if Betsy Dodson was Martha's older sister. Mary would have been her mother. If she was 'head' of the household, it suggests that Martha's father John Dodson was dead.
Thanks again Polly - as I said, very helpful to get this picture of their life in Birmingham.

 

[mikejee]

To add a reference to Polly's

1845.Dodson, John, , umbrella & fishing tackle maker, 2 St Martin's lane

 

[pollypops]

Hi Ian,
Glad the information was helpful to you - I cannot take all the credit for it as I had help from a friend
Something I must point out - when typing the very long post above I meant to state that on the baptism Parish record for Martha her mothers name appears as Ann not Mary - although I believe this is a writing error made on the day of the baptism as all other facts match with Martha being Marys daughter.(I will correct this on the post above now)

I do think that Martha's father John Dobson was probably still alive in 1851 and is the John Dobson lodging in Bordesley. If Mary's husband was dead in 1851 she would have been listed as head, widow not head, married. It would of been much easier for her to state she was widowed if she was than admit her husband wasn't there and as John was absent from the address on the day of the census Mary would have been listed as head - I have found this on my own family research when husbands were working away from home and lodging elsewhere.
I think Mary and John may of split up by 1851 and he had started a business in Bordesley - the John Dodson in St Martins disappears from the directories at this time and one appears listed in Bordesley.
I notice your comment above regarding the 1841 census which is possibly 'your' Edward Quiney but you are not sure as his mother was possibly in London when aged 73 in 1880 and that does not match with Esthers age - one of the problems with the 1841 is that it does not give the relationship of the people there to the head of household therefore making it possible that if it is 'your' Edward, Esther was not his mother but a relative - an aunt maybe? Again in my family research I have found it quite common for children to be living with aunts or grandparents. The puzzle continues.....
Thats a great advert from the Melbourne Paper - it fits in very well with the Dodson story.

 

[mikejee]

Polly
It would seem that your supposition was correct regarding John Dodson. His issues with Mary would seem to have been, partially at least, financial, as can be seen in the cutting from the Birmingham Gazette 24.6.1844. Later John was imprisoned for 1 month for a debt of 30 shillings non-payment of maintenance for Mary, and gave evidence in a report of conditions at the Borough gaol held 1853. The beginning of the evidence as reported in the Birmingham Gazette. 4.7.1853 is given below. the whole evidence is too long to put here, and is anyway only relevant to the gaol conditions.

 

[Ian Purcell]

To add a reference to Polly's

1845.Dodson, John, , umbrella & fishing tackle maker, 2 St Martin's lane

Thank you MIke. It's all coming together. I'm going back to my original idea that the Edward Quiney of my story IS the the Edward from the Cheapside Quineys. Polly's great research on the Dodson family (Edward married the daughter Martha) shows that they also lived on Cheapside from (perhaps) 1791 to 1852. The two families obviously knew one another.The fact that father John was a woodturner, fishing pole maker, umbrella and walking stick maker is very interesting. In his first few years in Melbourne, Edward set himself up as a manufacturer of such objects. Perhaps he imported them from his sister (Phoebe) and brother-in-law (Charles') factory in Digbeth St, where it seems Martha probably worked before they left for Australia. It may well be that he made or imported the 'sword-stick', a walking cane with a concealed steel rapier-pointed blade, that Thomas Odams used in 1880 to inflict a fatal wound to the left lung of a man called Johnson who had accused him (Odams) of having 'improper relations' with his wife. The plot thickens.

If you have the time and/or inclination to find on your historical maps of Birmingham the location of 2 St Martin's Lane, Litchfield St, 86 Cheapside and 136 Digbeth, I would be very grateful. Thank you, Ian

 

[Ian Purcell]

Polly
It would seem that your supposition was correct regarding John Dodson. His issues with Mary would seem to have been, partially at least, financial, as can be seen in the cutting from the Birmingham Gazette 24.6.1844. Later John was imprisoned for 1 month for a debt of 30 shillings non-payment of maintenance for Mary, and gave evidence in a report of conditions at the Borough gaol held 1853. The beginning of the evidence as reported in the Birmingham Gazette. 4.7.1853 is given below. the whole evidence is too long to put here, and is anyway only relevant to the gaol conditions.

Have just seen this. Thanks Mike. A similar situation arose for Edward Quiney in Melbourne in 1869. See attached, notice is at the top of the column.