MWS
from Bham
Can't find the Heaton St one now, so may have imagined that.
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Esther Hudson
- Thread starter Lily_Mae
- Start date
Can't find the Heaton St one now, so may have imagined that.
Thank you so much. I found a detailed report of his arrest which I’ll upload tomorrow based on Wilton street. Which he played on the I have only one arm, I’m not involved defence which was unsurprisingly disbelieved. I cant find reference to heaton street which I was more interested in is that is the address / location of his sister esther and her son in the late toward the later years.
As promised. the man appeared to be be a menace. Lots of information in the birmingham post. If I looked for just referenced one armed man - Id probably find more. But this is a detailed descriptipn of the 1887 arrest. The 1874 I have some info - but that was a scam whereby they used bad coin to go drinking I think. So habitual by this time for sure. Also attached is a mug shot from 1895. Dont know why, Age and crime fits - think this was for the police to know what know crims looked like. But by 1894 I think he was in the process of being released.
Attachments
Esther Baker married George Hudson in 1834 Handsworth St Mary.
Burial 1860 , February 5th Bordesley Holy Trinity
In 1851 they are living in Communications Row.
In 1861 their children George 21, James 19 , Esther 10 and Elizabeth 2 are living with their brother William and his wife in Latimer street.
I see that there is a man named Baker in the above newspaper cuttings , I wonder if he was related to Esther.
Burial 1860 , February 5th Bordesley Holy Trinity
In 1851 they are living in Communications Row.
In 1861 their children George 21, James 19 , Esther 10 and Elizabeth 2 are living with their brother William and his wife in Latimer street.
I see that there is a man named Baker in the above newspaper cuttings , I wonder if he was related to Esther.
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Baker is one of the Magistrates. From my research so far, He first got into serious trouble
1858 - on and off scuffles with his dad - 1 month correction
1859 - Stealing Caps - let off with 3 days jail time due to good character references from his employers (Sword makers so would have had both arms at this point
1863 6 years penal time for housebreaking (no reference of disability - so presumably had both arms as would have been useless - would have been useless no idea where time was served at the moment
1871 - charged with passing counterfeit coin (december) - trade now a hawker - arm likely missing as he had a good wage trade for the time. 18 months with 5 months police supervision
1874 - charged with passing counterfeit coin on 4 occasions - 10 years imprisonment - Parkhurst Prison - isle of white - released 1882 (occupation french polisher)
1885 - Assaulted by neighbour in Hospital Street. No idea why (cant be too many 1 armed peoplein Birmingham called George Hudson)
1887 - charged with making counterfeit coins - 10 years imprisonment - Portland Prison Dorset - released 1894 (occupation 1881 census french polisher)
hes down as a border in the 1901 census in Birmingham - occupation hawker
Id like to do more - hoping that there is some court information when I travel into Birmingham Archives. Also want info on Williams Coroners inquest and some workhouse infirmary info if its exists for the family.
George is literally the one obvious wrong-un in the family. But his dad was likely a vicious drunk. There are 2 newspaper records of George Jr assaulting George Sr in Broad street separate occasions, as the family were separated and was accusing his dad of pawning his stuff. So - this is scratching the surface or a suspected ugly living situation. No idea of what Esther died from-Brass street is nowhere near Ladywood really, and the family did not register the death, Presumably cos George Sr forgot, was drunk or both and was supposed to, dunno. Sr was dead by Dec 1860 of Pneumonia and gangrene of the lung at aged 44 . Esther I think died in Feb 1860 and was buried in Bordesley.
Yes there are 2. I know it’s him due to the 1 arm reference . Not found anything similar for 1863 as ye. But u will look later today.
Found him. Sent to Woking prison in November 1864 which was an invalid prison. Convicted of house breaking and larceny. So more intriguing about when he lost his arm. You wouldn’t be a sword polisher grinder with only one arm. So 1863 would have been the year at some point. It was also the year he lost his brother. the convictions are listed in this which is rather interesting
There was a glassmakers arms on granville street, which is fairly close to hill street, almost spitting distance. Certainly closer to tindal street / latimer street. The issue I have now is I dont know if the newspaper report is george sr or george jr, getting drunk and causing havoc. Feels like an older man tbh. But I dont know.
They referred to the Coal Hole (which was on Ann street) and then walked down HIll street before a conversation was had about going to the glasscutters arms. Would they have referred to the Glassmakers arms as glasscutters colloquially???? (like the coal hole for the bell and candlestick). Certainly seems closer late at night with no public transport if your that desperate for another pint and there was a Glassmakers arms on granville street for sure. Think thats the back of the registry office now or thereabouts.
MWS
from Bham
If there was one closer it seems more likely than the one on Hospital St, which I mentioned because it was close to Brass St.
I agree it seem more likely to be the George snr but you may never know for certain.
Here's a map from 1889, the writing is not great but on the corner of Granville St and Holliday St...
I agree it seem more likely to be the George snr but you may never know for certain.
Here's a map from 1889, the writing is not great but on the corner of Granville St and Holliday St...
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I found reference to a glasscutters arms on hill street in the newspaper for 1860 - the landlord got done for trading in Sunday!! It’s just a passing mention, amongst other pubs which also got fined. But it makes more sense if George sr was travelling down hill street to go there.
I did check the 1861 census, briefly and can’t find the landlord or the pub. There are 2 mentioned on hill street one by name, the grapes and the other just public house 103-104 hill street landlord was mr tailby. The name I was looking for was Thomas Bradley who was done for Sunday trading I think In 1860. but who knows. At least I found out it did exist. Yay me!!!
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The 1855 directory lists the following licensed premises on Hill St (city centre):
Rose & Crown
Horse & jockey
Star & Garter
Sampson & Lion
Old Rodney
No 88, not named, but on 1881 census is the Malt shovel
The Jim Crow
The 1867 directory also lists a beer retailer at no 68, but censuses either do not list it as a business premises or, in 1881 as a shop, so I think it was probably an off licence
Rose & Crown
Horse & jockey
Star & Garter
Sampson & Lion
Old Rodney
No 88, not named, but on 1881 census is the Malt shovel
The Jim Crow
The 1867 directory also lists a beer retailer at no 68, but censuses either do not list it as a business premises or, in 1881 as a shop, so I think it was probably an off licence
MWS
from Bham
Re-reading the 1858 article it doesn't actually say that the Glasscutter's Arms was on Hill St, it says that while George was walking down Hill St he proposed that they go to the Glasscutter's Arms. No road is specifically mentioned in reference to the Glasscutter's Arms. Not saying that it isn't there, just that the sentence is not totally clear.
Interestingly, on the 1861 census there is a Thomas Bradley on Granville St, though he's not listed as a publican.
Ive take this as far as I can with online records. Planning a trip now to the Birmingham Archives in Sept for the
1. Assize records for George Hudson Sr and Jr - court records etc Would like the trial info.
2. Workhouse records for George Jr - wrt amputation of arm. Cant see has access / funds or any other healthcare / and for Marys childbirth / admittance of Priscilla Hudson until her death in 1866.
3. Coroners inquest of William Hudson
4. Any other housing records their are for the period 1857-1863 as they moved around a lot and its not clear whether its 1 household or 2 by 1958/9.
MWS
from Bham
That article seems pretty clear.
One interesting point. The name of the Glasscutters Arms probably came from the nearby nusiness at 45 Navigation Street (position shown below. Numbering of Navigation St changed since 1860s)
This is listed in the 1858 , 1861, 1862 directories as glass toymaker, and in the 1867 directory as Glass button maker. The proprietor in 1858, 1861, 1862 was Benjamin Bradley,. and in the 1867 directory as Mrs Eliza Bradley.
In the 1855 directory ( but not 1858), 1861William Bradley is listed as a retail brewer in Blews St West, in 1861 a retail brewer in Heath St, and in 1862 a retail brewer in Icknield St East. So he seems to have moved about a bit, perhaps a bit of a chancer
This is listed in the 1858 , 1861, 1862 directories as glass toymaker, and in the 1867 directory as Glass button maker. The proprietor in 1858, 1861, 1862 was Benjamin Bradley,. and in the 1867 directory as Mrs Eliza Bradley.
In the 1855 directory ( but not 1858), 1861William Bradley is listed as a retail brewer in Blews St West, in 1861 a retail brewer in Heath St, and in 1862 a retail brewer in Icknield St East. So he seems to have moved about a bit, perhaps a bit of a chancer
Had the Death Cert for William Hudson. Died 2 bread Street within 5 minutes according to the coroner. Will need to go to Birmingham. Certain its My William but the address is not the home location. Would this be his work location? If so is there any info on Bread street in 1863. Assuming its a work address??
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I didnt find much at the archives. Im now of the opinion after reviewing the timeline that it was George jr who was the one causing trouble. Sr was a drunk for sure and had left the maritial home by 1858, and the chaos on the family is clear. The 1857 newspaper clip is the only clear reference to George Sr in the news, there is nothing else that I can see.
In June 1858 George Jr, attacked his father and was prosecuted and gaoled for a month. This was after an earlier similar assault.
In October 1858 Jr, did steal 10 caps but it didn't come to trial until December.
Then in December came the charge of theft by Overton alleged initially by William Hudson. (the brother) and then in court was changed to George. So I do think some skullduggery by Jr was going on (not beyond the realms of possibility to pretend to be his brother) to avoid additional trouble with the legals as he was up for the cap thefts later that month. In December - Overton was acquitted and on Jan 1st Jr was found guilty of the cap thefts and given a sentence of 3 days which was tantamount to release based on time served.
So I think circumstantially it is more likely that George Jr, was the subject of the following rather than George Sr. He was later imprisoned twice for coin counterfeiting. So by 1860 he was well on the way a very unsuccessful life of crime. But given the family dysfunction at that time hardly surprising.
In June 1858 George Jr, attacked his father and was prosecuted and gaoled for a month. This was after an earlier similar assault.
In October 1858 Jr, did steal 10 caps but it didn't come to trial until December.
Then in December came the charge of theft by Overton alleged initially by William Hudson. (the brother) and then in court was changed to George. So I do think some skullduggery by Jr was going on (not beyond the realms of possibility to pretend to be his brother) to avoid additional trouble with the legals as he was up for the cap thefts later that month. In December - Overton was acquitted and on Jan 1st Jr was found guilty of the cap thefts and given a sentence of 3 days which was tantamount to release based on time served.
So I think circumstantially it is more likely that George Jr, was the subject of the following rather than George Sr. He was later imprisoned twice for coin counterfeiting. So by 1860 he was well on the way a very unsuccessful life of crime. But given the family dysfunction at that time hardly surprising.
Hi - Anyone know where Mill street is please in 1837? There is one in Nechalls now but that seems too far considering the family tended to live around the Broad Street area of Birmingham. Just wondering if this is a one of those streets that is lost now.
Birth of Mary Ann Hudson She was baptised on 23 Oct 1837, St Martins Birmingham. Occupation of father Grinder (which is likely a Sword Grinder) and they resided at Mill Street. (Source – baptism record for St Martins Church) - daughter of George and Esther
Birth of Mary Ann Hudson She was baptised on 23 Oct 1837, St Martins Birmingham. Occupation of father Grinder (which is likely a Sword Grinder) and they resided at Mill Street. (Source – baptism record for St Martins Church) - daughter of George and Esther
If anyone can confirm this would be very much appreciated.
From the https://mappingbirmingham.blogspot.com/p/sub-districts-for-1851-census.html
There is a reference which also refers to Tyndall Grove and Sheepcote streetm Ruston street which are referenced as homes they used within the time period (they moved a lot). So its there somewhere. I just need to find where it would be on the map. I know there were flour mills there but cant find owt else. Very frustrating.
LADYWOOD SUB DISTRICT
Albert Place*, Albion Place*, Albion Street*, Albion Terrace*, Anderton Street, Arcall Terrace, Attwood Passage, Barker Street, Baskerville Place, Birmingham Heath, Bowden Place, Brass House Passage, Brass House Yard, Brighton Place, Brighton Terrace, Broad Street*, Cambridge Street, Camden Hill/St, Camden Place, Canal Side, Carver Street, Clarence Place, Clement Street, Cobden Place, Cope Street, Cottage Lane, Cottage Place, Cresent, Cumberland Street, Dudley Road*, Easy Row*, Edward Place, Edward Street, Eli Place, Essington Street, Eyre Street, Frederick Street*, Freeth Street, Garbett Street, Graham Street*, Great Charles Street*, Griffith's Court, Grosvenor Street West, Grotto Place, Hawkins Square, Heath Farm, Ladywood Lane, Ladywood Place, Ladywood Terrace, Ledsam Street, Lees Drive, Legge Lane/St, Lower Terrace, Melbourne Place, Mill Place, Mill Street, Morton Place, Morville Street, Mousley Court, Nelson Street, Nelson Street West, New Hall Hill, Nile Place, Nile Street, Oak Place, Oldbury Road, Oozells Street, Parade*, Pope Street, Powell Street, Providence Terrace, Richmond Place, Rotton Park Farm, Ruston Street, Ruston Street North, Ryland Place, Ryland Street*, (St.) Martin's Place, Sand Pits, Sand Pits Terrace, Saturday Bridge, Sheepcote Lane, Sheepcote Street, Spring Hill*, Spring Place, St, Mark Street, St. Martin's Row, St. Peter's Place, Steward Street, Stour Street, Summer Hill, Summer Hill Terrace, Summer Row*, Tenby Place, Tenby Street, Tindal Grove, Tindal Street, Tyndal Street, Union Place, Union Terrace, Victoria Place*, Vincent Street, Warstone Lane*.
There is a reference which also refers to Tyndall Grove and Sheepcote streetm Ruston street which are referenced as homes they used within the time period (they moved a lot). So its there somewhere. I just need to find where it would be on the map. I know there were flour mills there but cant find owt else. Very frustrating.
LADYWOOD SUB DISTRICT
Albert Place*, Albion Place*, Albion Street*, Albion Terrace*, Anderton Street, Arcall Terrace, Attwood Passage, Barker Street, Baskerville Place, Birmingham Heath, Bowden Place, Brass House Passage, Brass House Yard, Brighton Place, Brighton Terrace, Broad Street*, Cambridge Street, Camden Hill/St, Camden Place, Canal Side, Carver Street, Clarence Place, Clement Street, Cobden Place, Cope Street, Cottage Lane, Cottage Place, Cresent, Cumberland Street, Dudley Road*, Easy Row*, Edward Place, Edward Street, Eli Place, Essington Street, Eyre Street, Frederick Street*, Freeth Street, Garbett Street, Graham Street*, Great Charles Street*, Griffith's Court, Grosvenor Street West, Grotto Place, Hawkins Square, Heath Farm, Ladywood Lane, Ladywood Place, Ladywood Terrace, Ledsam Street, Lees Drive, Legge Lane/St, Lower Terrace, Melbourne Place, Mill Place, Mill Street, Morton Place, Morville Street, Mousley Court, Nelson Street, Nelson Street West, New Hall Hill, Nile Place, Nile Street, Oak Place, Oldbury Road, Oozells Street, Parade*, Pope Street, Powell Street, Providence Terrace, Richmond Place, Rotton Park Farm, Ruston Street, Ruston Street North, Ryland Place, Ryland Street*, (St.) Martin's Place, Sand Pits, Sand Pits Terrace, Saturday Bridge, Sheepcote Lane, Sheepcote Street, Spring Hill*, Spring Place, St, Mark Street, St. Martin's Row, St. Peter's Place, Steward Street, Stour Street, Summer Hill, Summer Hill Terrace, Summer Row*, Tenby Place, Tenby Street, Tindal Grove, Tindal Street, Tyndal Street, Union Place, Union Terrace, Victoria Place*, Vincent Street, Warstone Lane*.
Looks like in this region - 1851 census says, So Im guessing that the street has been renamed (Tyndall Street we know was renamed as Browning Street which appears as Browning street in this map) Grosvenor Street west is still there and Ladywood Lane seems to be now Ladywood Road.
Anyone know when these changes would have been made.
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