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Where is This? - No. 112
- Thread starter ChrisM
- Start date
Wendy,
If you open up the image in its expanded form in the forum, then right click on it, choose Save Picture As and then save it to a convenient file on your computer; and then open up that file in your graphics program; you will then be able to expand it as much as you want. It will become very legible.
I am assuming that you're using Internet Explorer.
Chris
If you open up the image in its expanded form in the forum, then right click on it, choose Save Picture As and then save it to a convenient file on your computer; and then open up that file in your graphics program; you will then be able to expand it as much as you want. It will become very legible.
I am assuming that you're using Internet Explorer.
Chris
Re: Where is This?-No.112 (Bristol/Ashley St.-Old Meeting Church-the Home Guard)
There's a bit of additional information relevant to this thread (where, in a triumph of sleuthing by forum members, we managed to identify the Old Meeting Church in Bristol Street/Ashley Street as the home of the Birmingham Home Guard Street Fighting School).
The attached pictures show the area where the School carried out its practical training. In the background in the first image one can see the church on the skyline. There appears to be scaffolding around the steeple and some damage is evident which suggests that the building did not emerge totally unscathed from the Blitz. There were further hints of this in the original picture.
As best I can work it out, it looks to me as though the training area lay to the north-east of the church, in the area of Wrentham, Essex, Kent and Gooch Streets. I should appreciate opinions about that, based on the possible orientation of the church.
In the other image, a panorama, a large portion of the training area seems to be illustrated. What strikes me is the utter desolation. I don't know if this area was extensively damaged in the bombing, or if it was already the subject of some pre-war redevelopment which was suspended due to the war, or a combination of both. I am also a bit surprised at the extent of open spaces in the area, not just those caused by destruction or demolition.
I have put a better version of the panorama image and also a couple of pictures of the surrounding streets on a website page here. (The original Street Fighting School page remains here).
I should be very grateful for any opinions or information forum members might have about the area and the reasons for it being in the state which it obviously was.
Thanks.
Chris
There's a bit of additional information relevant to this thread (where, in a triumph of sleuthing by forum members, we managed to identify the Old Meeting Church in Bristol Street/Ashley Street as the home of the Birmingham Home Guard Street Fighting School).
The attached pictures show the area where the School carried out its practical training. In the background in the first image one can see the church on the skyline. There appears to be scaffolding around the steeple and some damage is evident which suggests that the building did not emerge totally unscathed from the Blitz. There were further hints of this in the original picture.
As best I can work it out, it looks to me as though the training area lay to the north-east of the church, in the area of Wrentham, Essex, Kent and Gooch Streets. I should appreciate opinions about that, based on the possible orientation of the church.
In the other image, a panorama, a large portion of the training area seems to be illustrated. What strikes me is the utter desolation. I don't know if this area was extensively damaged in the bombing, or if it was already the subject of some pre-war redevelopment which was suspended due to the war, or a combination of both. I am also a bit surprised at the extent of open spaces in the area, not just those caused by destruction or demolition.
I have put a better version of the panorama image and also a couple of pictures of the surrounding streets on a website page here. (The original Street Fighting School page remains here).
I should be very grateful for any opinions or information forum members might have about the area and the reasons for it being in the state which it obviously was.
Thanks.
Chris
Attachments
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Chris
Those are great photographs. I would think the desolation was entirely due to the bombing, though some who know the area will undoubtably be able to say if that is the photograph must be from the true. As to the position, i attach a map of the area (from c1910). From the position of the spire, the photo must have been taken from approximateley north-northwest of the church. Assuming that they were still there before the war, I would think that big area of water might be the old corporation baths, which are in about the right position.
mike
Those are great photographs. I would think the desolation was entirely due to the bombing, though some who know the area will undoubtably be able to say if that is the photograph must be from the true. As to the position, i attach a map of the area (from c1910). From the position of the spire, the photo must have been taken from approximateley north-northwest of the church. Assuming that they were still there before the war, I would think that big area of water might be the old corporation baths, which are in about the right position.
mike
Thanks, Mike, a wonderful map.
I am struggling a bit with all this. I have marked up your map with a couple of possible lines of sight, lining up on the large building between us and the church spire and having several chimneys. I think that the right-hand line is the more likely although the left is possible. Either way, I think that it is Wrentham Street which is running across the photograph in the middle distance. It is very difficult to assess distances, orientation and perspective though.
The reason why I favour the right-hand line is that the outline of the buildings on the map between us and the spire seems to accord somewhat more closely with the image; and to the right of the multi-chimneyed building there are others which tie in with the map. In that case, the road coming up on the right-hand side is Henstead Street. The problem with all this is that Kent Street seems to have wholly disappeared. It should be in the area to the left but there appears to be nothing there apart from wasteland.
The left-hand line would give us Kent Street to the right of us.
What is troubling me is that not a lot seems to tie in exactly even though I realise that we're looking at a map which is 35 years out of date. Also I am surprised at the extent of the desolation. Not only are there large open spaces, but there seems to be little evidence of all the buildings which, according to the map, once stood in the area. I would have expected rather more rubble. Also there are one or two mature trees which I find a bit surprising, bearing in mind the area seems to have been so heavily built up previously.
The images I have are about the highest definition which I can achieve. If anyone is looking at the very fine detail, the best image to use of the area of the church is the single photograph I originally posted. The panorama is fairly accurate but it has been stitched together and might have lost a bit of detail around the joins.
I should be very grateful if one or two fresh pairs of eyes could have a look at this and give me their opinions. Any further information about the extent of Blitz damage in the area would also be invaluable.
Chris
I am struggling a bit with all this. I have marked up your map with a couple of possible lines of sight, lining up on the large building between us and the church spire and having several chimneys. I think that the right-hand line is the more likely although the left is possible. Either way, I think that it is Wrentham Street which is running across the photograph in the middle distance. It is very difficult to assess distances, orientation and perspective though.
The reason why I favour the right-hand line is that the outline of the buildings on the map between us and the spire seems to accord somewhat more closely with the image; and to the right of the multi-chimneyed building there are others which tie in with the map. In that case, the road coming up on the right-hand side is Henstead Street. The problem with all this is that Kent Street seems to have wholly disappeared. It should be in the area to the left but there appears to be nothing there apart from wasteland.
The left-hand line would give us Kent Street to the right of us.
What is troubling me is that not a lot seems to tie in exactly even though I realise that we're looking at a map which is 35 years out of date. Also I am surprised at the extent of the desolation. Not only are there large open spaces, but there seems to be little evidence of all the buildings which, according to the map, once stood in the area. I would have expected rather more rubble. Also there are one or two mature trees which I find a bit surprising, bearing in mind the area seems to have been so heavily built up previously.
The images I have are about the highest definition which I can achieve. If anyone is looking at the very fine detail, the best image to use of the area of the church is the single photograph I originally posted. The panorama is fairly accurate but it has been stitched together and might have lost a bit of detail around the joins.
I should be very grateful if one or two fresh pairs of eyes could have a look at this and give me their opinions. Any further information about the extent of Blitz damage in the area would also be invaluable.
Chris
Attachments
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john knight
signman
Hello Chris,
Here's my take on it for what it's worth, I put a vertical line up the spire and then turned it at right angles to the ground lining it up with the corner of the large building because that angle never moves, only with your position.
I then transferred the line to Mikes map and as you can see it's not far from your right hand line.
Regards John.
Mod note: image unfortunately lost due to Forum hacking: "MapImageCombo1200.jpg"
Here's my take on it for what it's worth, I put a vertical line up the spire and then turned it at right angles to the ground lining it up with the corner of the large building because that angle never moves, only with your position.
I then transferred the line to Mikes map and as you can see it's not far from your right hand line.
Regards John.
Mod note: image unfortunately lost due to Forum hacking: "MapImageCombo1200.jpg"
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Ray Barrett
GONE BUT NOT FORGOTTEN R.I.P.
The soldiers are a motley crew all different regiments,and with 2 ambulance men in attendence.My suggestion would be some sort of dispersal unit,perhaps wounded, and waiting for a return to their own regiment.My guess on location,would be Thorp St.barracks,can't remember whether there was a church there or not.
Thank you everyone for the further contributions to this.
John, I'm glad that you are adding some weight to my right hand line, or at least the general orientation of it. What continues to concern me, though, is the apparent absence of Kent Street.
OtherHalf - thanks for the image. I suppose you have no idea whereabouts in Bristol Street that would be?
Ray - thanks the your thoughts also. Whilst there is always the possibility of course that we have got it wrong, I am still firmly convinced that the interpretation which emerged during this thread is the correct one. I think that it is borne out by the similarities of detail in the 1940s image and the earlier one of the church in question; and I think that the documentary evidence provided by a Home Guard officer from the North Riding (shown on a website page) indicates very strongly the nature of the group, a Home Guard training course. It does look as though, as you point out, that the group had a couple of St John's ambulancemen in attendance. One or two training films showing what the course entailed survive and one can imagine from them why the presence of medical people was considered necessary!
Chris
John, I'm glad that you are adding some weight to my right hand line, or at least the general orientation of it. What continues to concern me, though, is the apparent absence of Kent Street.
OtherHalf - thanks for the image. I suppose you have no idea whereabouts in Bristol Street that would be?
Ray - thanks the your thoughts also. Whilst there is always the possibility of course that we have got it wrong, I am still firmly convinced that the interpretation which emerged during this thread is the correct one. I think that it is borne out by the similarities of detail in the 1940s image and the earlier one of the church in question; and I think that the documentary evidence provided by a Home Guard officer from the North Riding (shown on a website page) indicates very strongly the nature of the group, a Home Guard training course. It does look as though, as you point out, that the group had a couple of St John's ambulancemen in attendance. One or two training films showing what the course entailed survive and one can imagine from them why the presence of medical people was considered necessary!
Chris
OtherHalf
posher half
OtherHalf - thanks for the image. I suppose you have no idea whereabouts in Bristol Street that would be?
Sorry Chris I dont got a few pics off a youtube vid and that was one of them have a couple of others including land mine explosion in Ladywood I think other than that sorry.. keep up the good work all your info on your site etc is very much appreciared thanks
Sorry Chris I dont got a few pics off a youtube vid and that was one of them have a couple of others including land mine explosion in Ladywood I think other than that sorry.. keep up the good work all your info on your site etc is very much appreciared thanks
OtherHalf
posher half
Chris have just looked again at photo re land mine it is Grant st 1940 which was the other side of Bristol st but again might tally with the area being bombed fairly heavily and again surmising ? maybe the ground that the training camp was on was bombed out and site cleared ?the photo is one again from youtube video and has probably come out of a published book so if anyone recognises it? I can acknowledge the original owner?
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john knight
signman
Hello Chris,
From the angle I have suggested and also your own right hand angle, Kent Street would not come into the equation.
Also as the photo is from a low angle Kent Street would be coming in from the left and it's junction with Wrentham St. would just be out of view.
I think that what appears to be a large area of water is throwing everyone of scent.
I may be wrong, but that's as I see it.
Kind Regards John.
From the angle I have suggested and also your own right hand angle, Kent Street would not come into the equation.
Also as the photo is from a low angle Kent Street would be coming in from the left and it's junction with Wrentham St. would just be out of view.
I think that what appears to be a large area of water is throwing everyone of scent.
I may be wrong, but that's as I see it.
Kind Regards John.
Remiss of me not to have thanked John and OtherHalf for their further contributions. Gratefuly received, thanks.
There are still one or two unanswered questions concerning this strange desolate area, once so built up, but I have now added Mike's map to the page: https://www.staffshomeguard.co.uk/DotherReminiscences60ABhamFightingSchool.htm as there seems little doubt about the orientation of the camera.
It would be good to get any further thoughts from future viewers of this thread but even as we stand I think it's a miracle that we have got as far as we have - a great tribute to the knowledge and kindness of forum members.
Chris
There are still one or two unanswered questions concerning this strange desolate area, once so built up, but I have now added Mike's map to the page: https://www.staffshomeguard.co.uk/DotherReminiscences60ABhamFightingSchool.htm as there seems little doubt about the orientation of the camera.
It would be good to get any further thoughts from future viewers of this thread but even as we stand I think it's a miracle that we have got as far as we have - a great tribute to the knowledge and kindness of forum members.
Chris
OtherHalf - You mentioned early about St Lukes Church and the now redundant road at the side of it, well that road is/was St Lukes Road and lead to the school, the school has now been knocked down and is waste ground, the other part of St Lukes Road still exists the other side of the waste ground.
Regards to the Church in the pictures, I have been a postman delivering to Bristol Street and surrounding roads for a few years now, in my opinion this does not look like St Lukes or the Reformed Christian Church of God as it is now called - just my opinion !
Regards to the Church in the pictures, I have been a postman delivering to Bristol Street and surrounding roads for a few years now, in my opinion this does not look like St Lukes or the Reformed Christian Church of God as it is now called - just my opinion !
paul stacey
master brummie
there was a place for courses in Digbeth.
paul stacey
master brummie
I don't know exactly but my dad told me that they had home guard trainee's at the old police training collage digbeth.