L
lydfordcastle
Guest
Found an ancestor running the Wagon & Horses in Heneage Street in 1890's. Can some kind soul tell me if the pub still exists or even just the building. Anyone know of a picture?
-
Welcome to this forum . We are a worldwide group with a common interest in Birmingham and its history. While here, please follow a few simple rules. We ask that you respect other members, thank those who have helped you and please keep your contributions on-topic with the thread.
We do hope you enjoy your visit. BHF Admin Team
There doesn't seem to be a Waggon & Horses listed in Kellys in Heneage St in that period. there are however a number of establishments listed as beer retailer. This could be either an on or off licence, and it is probably one of these that was the waggon and Horses. The absence of an establishment name in kellys is not unusual, but it does give the occupant's name.. If you give the name of your ancestor, then I can check these establishments.
Mike
Mike
L
lydfordcastle
Guest
Thanks Mike, the ancestor's name is John Raby and the 1901 census shows him with his wife Mary at 251 Heneage Street and beneath the address on the census form are the words "Wagon & Horses Public House". There seem to be quite a number of pubs in the area according to the census as on the same form are recorded the Rising Sun at number 235 and the Old Brewery at number 244. Sounds like my kind of street!!
Regards
Frank
Regards
Frank
Phil
Gone, but not forgotten.
The 1903 listing from Kelly's is,
251 Littler Albert Beer Retailer.
It seems to be on the corner of Adams Street & Heneage St. I lived a few hundred yards away from here in the 50's and I never heard any mention of a Waggon & Horses. The only pub I knew of close to that location was the Rising Sun. So if you want to rely on my failing memory, you can accept that it was gone before the 50's.
In fact the 1950 edition of Kelly's makes no commercial listing for 251.
Phil
251 Littler Albert Beer Retailer.
It seems to be on the corner of Adams Street & Heneage St. I lived a few hundred yards away from here in the 50's and I never heard any mention of a Waggon & Horses. The only pub I knew of close to that location was the Rising Sun. So if you want to rely on my failing memory, you can accept that it was gone before the 50's.
In fact the 1950 edition of Kelly's makes no commercial listing for 251.
Phil
Frank
James Raby is in the 1896 directory at 251 as Beer retailer (remember the listing was probably done the year before). He is not listed in 1892 or 1888, though there is a Henry Raby in both these years at The old Bulls Head, 81 Digbeth. James is nothere in 1904, though there is an Edward James Raby at a private address 140 South road, Erdington.
All three of the pubs you mention are described as beer retailers in kellys. There was also The Shepheard & Shepherdess at 69; The Bloomsbury Tavern at 127; The Grapes Inn at 178,179; The fountain Inn at 196; together with four other beer retailers. I think i'm goingh to try and work out the exact position of them all on a map
Mike
James Raby is in the 1896 directory at 251 as Beer retailer (remember the listing was probably done the year before). He is not listed in 1892 or 1888, though there is a Henry Raby in both these years at The old Bulls Head, 81 Digbeth. James is nothere in 1904, though there is an Edward James Raby at a private address 140 South road, Erdington.
All three of the pubs you mention are described as beer retailers in kellys. There was also The Shepheard & Shepherdess at 69; The Bloomsbury Tavern at 127; The Grapes Inn at 178,179; The fountain Inn at 196; together with four other beer retailers. I think i'm goingh to try and work out the exact position of them all on a map
Mike
M
Mossy
Guest
Frank there used to be a pub called The Rising Sun at the top end of Ashted Row,
....Mossy
....Mossy
Pubs and licensed premises in Heneage St.
The following are listings of licensed premises and occupiers given in Kelly, and includes both on and off licensees. A couple have been named by references in the census. Have included the Stag & Pheasant as it is partially in Heneage St. Have also included an ale and porter seller, whose position I am not clear on. The years mentioned are those of directories I can check. The position of the premises is marked as a number in red on the map. A couple have question marks against them. This is because there is a doubt as to whether it is the building marked or the one next door. The map used is the 1913 Alan godfrey map. Earlier than that some buildings were different, but its a good approximation.
1. Stag & Pheasant.26 Woodcock St, but on south corner of Heneage St, 1873-6 Thomas Swain; 1880 – 88 William Swain; 1892 George Joseph Stanley; 1896 joseph Beesley; 1904 Mrs Bertha Smith; 1908 - 12 Sylvanus Bird; 1921 Robert Inett; It has disappeared by 1931.
2. No 15. Beer retailer. 1873 Not mentioned; 1876 John Groocock; 1880 – 84 Henry Groocock; 1888 - 96 George Mackenzie; 1904 Charles Hill; 1908 Walter Cox; 1912 Alfred Whittaker, but he is described as shopkeeper, and no further reference to licensed trade.
3. No 48 Beerhouse 1873 Louis Smith; 1876. Mrs Caroline Smith; 1880 - 4 George Lawson; 1888 John Robinson; 1892 Robert Robinson; 1896 John Hardware; 1904 – 08 Albert Kemp; After 1912 Not mentioned;
4. No 59. Beer retailer. 1873 - 80 Robert Dawson; 1884 - 96 Mrs Ann Dawson; 1904 Edwin Lowe Harrison; After 1908 Not mentioned;
5. No 69 Shepherd & Shepherdess, 1873 - 80 Thomas Richards; 1884 - 88 Mrs Clara Richards; 1892 Frederick Banghan; 1896 Frederick Smith; 1904 Richard Hy. Anthony; 1908 - 12 Arthur Ivers Croft; 1921 William Henry Stoddard; 1932 – 33 Frederick Breeze; 1940 - 44 William Henry Birch; 1950 no mention; 1956 Mentioned, no licensee given.; 1964 No licensed premises listed in street
6. No 109 Beerhouse 1873 James Samuel Lyth; 1876 William Ritcher; 1880 William Pitcher; 1884 Not mentioned; 1888 William Hodgkiss; 1892 Alfred Henderson; 1896 Benjamin Horton; 1904 George Standley; 1908 – 12 William Dale; 1921 Mrs Mary A.Hunt; 1932 is shop. No further mention of licensed trade.
7. No 127 Bloomsbury Tavern. 1873 Not named. Walter Hyde; 1876 - 80 George Cookes; 1884 John Cook; 1888 William Bagley; 1 892 William Bodman; 1896 Richard Thomas Jones; 1904 George A. Palmer; 1908 John Alfred Green; 1912 Elijah Dunn; 1921 John William Peake; After 1932 Not mentioned
8. No 180 Ale & porter merchant, 1873- 76 John Bubb White. 1880 – J Freeman & Co, aerated water manufacturers . After that no relation to licensed trade.
9. No 196, The Fountain Inn. (1873 - 88. not named). 1873 William Mason; 1876 Joseph Nicholas; 1880 John Hughes; 1884 Thomas Dancer Souls; 1888 Frederick Chas Bowles; 1892 Not mentioned; 1896 Edward Wright; 1904 – 12 George Harry Woodley; From 1921 not mentioned;
10.No 235 The Rising Sun. Not named till 1933. 1873 Edward Hands ;1876 Richard Wooldridge; 1880 James Winters; 1884 Charles Criswick; 1888 Enoch Jones ; 1892 William Hasell; 1896 William Dale; 1904 Harry Reynolds; 1908 - 12 Jas E. Blocksidge; 1932 - 40 Reginald Williams; 1944 Jas Thomas Taylor; 1950 No listing; 1956 Thomas Taylor; 1964 No licensed premises listed in street
11.No 244 The Old Brewery. Never named in Kellys. 1873 - 6 Mark Rawlings; 1880 Peter Mills; 1884 David Bloor; 1888 William Rogers; 1892 Francis Baxter; 1896 - 1908 Thomas Clayfield; 1912 Henry Reynolds; 1921 Arthur Ernest Bradshaw; no further mention of licensed premises.
12.No 251 The Wagon & Horses .Never named.1873 Mrs Sarah Harris; 1876 Samuel Randell; 1880 John Henry Johnson; 1884 William Fowler; 1888 - 92 James Collins; 1896 John Raby; 1904 Albert Littler; After 1908 Not mentioned;
13.No 178-9 The Grapes. 1873- 88. John Campbell; 1892 - 96 James Townson; 1904 – 08 Herbert Mound; 1912 Arthur Stokes; 1921 Robert Henry Wilding; 1932 - 40 John Thomas; 1944 – 56 Mrs Elsie May Thomas; 1964 No licensed premises listed in street
The following are listings of licensed premises and occupiers given in Kelly, and includes both on and off licensees. A couple have been named by references in the census. Have included the Stag & Pheasant as it is partially in Heneage St. Have also included an ale and porter seller, whose position I am not clear on. The years mentioned are those of directories I can check. The position of the premises is marked as a number in red on the map. A couple have question marks against them. This is because there is a doubt as to whether it is the building marked or the one next door. The map used is the 1913 Alan godfrey map. Earlier than that some buildings were different, but its a good approximation.
1. Stag & Pheasant.26 Woodcock St, but on south corner of Heneage St, 1873-6 Thomas Swain; 1880 – 88 William Swain; 1892 George Joseph Stanley; 1896 joseph Beesley; 1904 Mrs Bertha Smith; 1908 - 12 Sylvanus Bird; 1921 Robert Inett; It has disappeared by 1931.
2. No 15. Beer retailer. 1873 Not mentioned; 1876 John Groocock; 1880 – 84 Henry Groocock; 1888 - 96 George Mackenzie; 1904 Charles Hill; 1908 Walter Cox; 1912 Alfred Whittaker, but he is described as shopkeeper, and no further reference to licensed trade.
3. No 48 Beerhouse 1873 Louis Smith; 1876. Mrs Caroline Smith; 1880 - 4 George Lawson; 1888 John Robinson; 1892 Robert Robinson; 1896 John Hardware; 1904 – 08 Albert Kemp; After 1912 Not mentioned;
4. No 59. Beer retailer. 1873 - 80 Robert Dawson; 1884 - 96 Mrs Ann Dawson; 1904 Edwin Lowe Harrison; After 1908 Not mentioned;
5. No 69 Shepherd & Shepherdess, 1873 - 80 Thomas Richards; 1884 - 88 Mrs Clara Richards; 1892 Frederick Banghan; 1896 Frederick Smith; 1904 Richard Hy. Anthony; 1908 - 12 Arthur Ivers Croft; 1921 William Henry Stoddard; 1932 – 33 Frederick Breeze; 1940 - 44 William Henry Birch; 1950 no mention; 1956 Mentioned, no licensee given.; 1964 No licensed premises listed in street
6. No 109 Beerhouse 1873 James Samuel Lyth; 1876 William Ritcher; 1880 William Pitcher; 1884 Not mentioned; 1888 William Hodgkiss; 1892 Alfred Henderson; 1896 Benjamin Horton; 1904 George Standley; 1908 – 12 William Dale; 1921 Mrs Mary A.Hunt; 1932 is shop. No further mention of licensed trade.
7. No 127 Bloomsbury Tavern. 1873 Not named. Walter Hyde; 1876 - 80 George Cookes; 1884 John Cook; 1888 William Bagley; 1 892 William Bodman; 1896 Richard Thomas Jones; 1904 George A. Palmer; 1908 John Alfred Green; 1912 Elijah Dunn; 1921 John William Peake; After 1932 Not mentioned
8. No 180 Ale & porter merchant, 1873- 76 John Bubb White. 1880 – J Freeman & Co, aerated water manufacturers . After that no relation to licensed trade.
9. No 196, The Fountain Inn. (1873 - 88. not named). 1873 William Mason; 1876 Joseph Nicholas; 1880 John Hughes; 1884 Thomas Dancer Souls; 1888 Frederick Chas Bowles; 1892 Not mentioned; 1896 Edward Wright; 1904 – 12 George Harry Woodley; From 1921 not mentioned;
10.No 235 The Rising Sun. Not named till 1933. 1873 Edward Hands ;1876 Richard Wooldridge; 1880 James Winters; 1884 Charles Criswick; 1888 Enoch Jones ; 1892 William Hasell; 1896 William Dale; 1904 Harry Reynolds; 1908 - 12 Jas E. Blocksidge; 1932 - 40 Reginald Williams; 1944 Jas Thomas Taylor; 1950 No listing; 1956 Thomas Taylor; 1964 No licensed premises listed in street
11.No 244 The Old Brewery. Never named in Kellys. 1873 - 6 Mark Rawlings; 1880 Peter Mills; 1884 David Bloor; 1888 William Rogers; 1892 Francis Baxter; 1896 - 1908 Thomas Clayfield; 1912 Henry Reynolds; 1921 Arthur Ernest Bradshaw; no further mention of licensed premises.
12.No 251 The Wagon & Horses .Never named.1873 Mrs Sarah Harris; 1876 Samuel Randell; 1880 John Henry Johnson; 1884 William Fowler; 1888 - 92 James Collins; 1896 John Raby; 1904 Albert Littler; After 1908 Not mentioned;
13.No 178-9 The Grapes. 1873- 88. John Campbell; 1892 - 96 James Townson; 1904 – 08 Herbert Mound; 1912 Arthur Stokes; 1921 Robert Henry Wilding; 1932 - 40 John Thomas; 1944 – 56 Mrs Elsie May Thomas; 1964 No licensed premises listed in street
L
lydfordcastle
Guest
What a wonderful group of people you are!! Many thanks to all for the information supplied, especially to Mike for his work on the map.
Hi there Mike
I came across your post on Google - thanks for the info and map. My ancestors , the Hydes, kept the Bloomsbury Tavern at 127 Heneage St. I can tell you that it was owned by Joseph Hyde from sometime in the 1840s until it was passed to his son Walter on his death in the 1870s. I didnt know which PH it was from my map - but now I do!
Lisa
I came across your post on Google - thanks for the info and map. My ancestors , the Hydes, kept the Bloomsbury Tavern at 127 Heneage St. I can tell you that it was owned by Joseph Hyde from sometime in the 1840s until it was passed to his son Walter on his death in the 1870s. I didnt know which PH it was from my map - but now I do!
Lisa
Kathsutton46
knowlegable brummie
Hello, It's 8 years since you submitted this information and today Ihave found it very helpful. Thank you.