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Wagon and horses Sheldon
- Thread starter DNC
- Start date
No I have no family conection. I have a very old Car [1898 english Daimler] which was owned for many years by the owner of this Pub Doug Copley in the 20s and 30s He seems to have been a bit of a local celebrity and it would be nice to include any infomation I can to go with my reserch for the car. I do know the pub no longer exist as It was burnt down a few years ago
Regards David
Regards David
lindyloo
master brummie
Hi David,
You are right about the pub having burnt down, it has now been replaced by an Aldi store. I was horrified when I saw the remains, such a waste of a lovely building that I had known of for most of my life. But it was doomed to demolition anyway and had stood empty for such a long time. I used to love looking at the old pictures of Sheldon in there..I just hope they were removed when it closed.
I have found couple of photos in a book about Sheldon, I hope they are of use to you.
The first picture is Douglas in his 1898 Daimler circa 1930. It says he was Landlord of the Wagon & Horses from 1923 to 1951 and that he collected early vehicles. He raced his cars in competitions and was a well known local character. He died in 1984 at the age of 95.
The second picture, is a side view of the pub taken in 1937. it says the hand-pump fire engine on the left came from Wootten Wawen and was part of his collection.
Going by his death in 1984 which was registered in Stratford-upon-Avon, Warwickshire, I believe he was born Douglas Melville Copley in 1889, registered in Chorlton, Lancs. The son of Fred A and Kate Alma Copley, both born Leeds. Fred was a school master in 1901 and a Journalist in 1911. Douglas had 3 brothers, Stanley A, Basil F and Cyril Victor. In 1911, Douglas was a Photographer and Cyril was a Chauffeur (Domestic). Douglas married Rose Foy in 1915, in Lancs.
(Hopefully someone else will check what I have found)
You are right about the pub having burnt down, it has now been replaced by an Aldi store. I was horrified when I saw the remains, such a waste of a lovely building that I had known of for most of my life. But it was doomed to demolition anyway and had stood empty for such a long time. I used to love looking at the old pictures of Sheldon in there..I just hope they were removed when it closed.
I have found couple of photos in a book about Sheldon, I hope they are of use to you.
The first picture is Douglas in his 1898 Daimler circa 1930. It says he was Landlord of the Wagon & Horses from 1923 to 1951 and that he collected early vehicles. He raced his cars in competitions and was a well known local character. He died in 1984 at the age of 95.
The second picture, is a side view of the pub taken in 1937. it says the hand-pump fire engine on the left came from Wootten Wawen and was part of his collection.
Going by his death in 1984 which was registered in Stratford-upon-Avon, Warwickshire, I believe he was born Douglas Melville Copley in 1889, registered in Chorlton, Lancs. The son of Fred A and Kate Alma Copley, both born Leeds. Fred was a school master in 1901 and a Journalist in 1911. Douglas had 3 brothers, Stanley A, Basil F and Cyril Victor. In 1911, Douglas was a Photographer and Cyril was a Chauffeur (Domestic). Douglas married Rose Foy in 1915, in Lancs.
(Hopefully someone else will check what I have found)
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Well this is amazing. The Daimler in the photo is in fact my car. Indeed It’s a 1898 Daimler originally built for Sir Oswald Mosely. I new that Doug Copley use to deliver Petrol in it but this is the first time I have seen this picture. I would love a good copy have you any ideas where I could see the original? Thank you so much for posting,you have made my day. If I can work out how to upload photos I could post a picture of the car as it is now if you are intersted.
Regards and thank you David
Regards and thank you David
lindyloo
master brummie
Hi David, I'm pleased that my post has made your day. :encouragement:
I believe the photographs are held at Birmingham Central Library, from what I can see in the Acknowledgements in the book, but please check there opening times if you plan to visit because they vary due to an impending move to the new library next year (I think). You should find library details on the birmingham council website.
I would indeed like to see your photo.. if it is held on your pc, click on the little picture in the tool bar above where you type a post and select 'from computer' and follow the steps.. sorry not very detailed steps ..just on my way out..
I believe the photographs are held at Birmingham Central Library, from what I can see in the Acknowledgements in the book, but please check there opening times if you plan to visit because they vary due to an impending move to the new library next year (I think). You should find library details on the birmingham council website.
I would indeed like to see your photo.. if it is held on your pc, click on the little picture in the tool bar above where you type a post and select 'from computer' and follow the steps.. sorry not very detailed steps ..just on my way out..
brummie nick
master brummie
I think there was another picture of Doug Copley driving another old car posted on the site, can't remember the link though.
Nick
Nick
Hello Lindyloo. Thank you for the Photo infomation. Please find Photo of the car as it is now in fact Summer last year. Where did you get Copleys family info from I would love to find out more about him if posible and perhaps the date on which he died.
Regards David
Thank you also to the others who have responded
Regards David
Thank you also to the others who have responded
lindyloo
master brummie
Hi David,
I agree with pollypops, it is indeed a beautiful car and obviously it is given plenty of TLC ..
I'm glad you found out how to post it.. :encouragement:
I got the family info from Ancestry.co.uk by following them through the census. I have had a quick look at the Newspaper Archives available through my library card ( 19th Century, Gales Vault and The Times Digital) but have found nothing about Doug in the years covered. Later newspapers in the library itself may have articles about him, but it would involve a trip (or several) to the library and really you could do with dates to make searching easier.
His Death was registered in January 1984 which narrows it down a little.
I will see if I can find out anymore info on the date.
Lynne
I agree with pollypops, it is indeed a beautiful car and obviously it is given plenty of TLC ..
I'm glad you found out how to post it.. :encouragement:
I got the family info from Ancestry.co.uk by following them through the census. I have had a quick look at the Newspaper Archives available through my library card ( 19th Century, Gales Vault and The Times Digital) but have found nothing about Doug in the years covered. Later newspapers in the library itself may have articles about him, but it would involve a trip (or several) to the library and really you could do with dates to make searching easier.
His Death was registered in January 1984 which narrows it down a little.
I will see if I can find out anymore info on the date.
Lynne
W
Wendy
Guest
What a lovely car thank you so much for posting the photo David. Lynne a great piece of research I hope we can find some more information on the Copley family. So sad such a lovely pub has gone. We used to pop in there in the 70's on the way home from visiting Michael's sister.
lindyloo
master brummie
Hi brummie nick, I have just found one thread started by Astoness in 2009 that mentions Doug Copley https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=25167&page=5&highlight=copley ...I have asked if she maybe still has the photo to do with claypipes as this may also be of interest to David...unfortunately some of the photos will probably be irreplaceable as they were posted by the late Lencops .. 
There is more on Doug mentioned here, with the same picture that I have posted. https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=35238&highlight=copley
David, just in case you are unaware, this site lost thousands of photos due to the action of a hacker.. many have been replaced by the sheer hard work and dedication of the members on the Forum, but some will have been lost forever.
There is more on Doug mentioned here, with the same picture that I have posted. https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=35238&highlight=copley
David, just in case you are unaware, this site lost thousands of photos due to the action of a hacker.. many have been replaced by the sheer hard work and dedication of the members on the Forum, but some will have been lost forever.
lindyloo
master brummie
Thanks Wendy
, as I mentioned..hopefully someone will double check it, to make sure I have it right..
sylviasayers
master brummie
It never ceases to amaze me what detailed information our members manage to find out and share on the Forum, whatever the subject may be someone or some people are able to help. Well done.
Hi
I've just been working on some family history and I discovered that a first cousin twice removed was the Publican at the Wagon & Horse, Sheldon around 1911. In trying to find a bit more information on the pub and its history I came across this site and was delighted to find so much interesting information, together with the photographs.
In case anyone can delve even further back than Doug Copley's management of the pub, my relation was Leonard Pillinger and he ran the pub around 1911 according to the census returns, along with his sister and brother-in-law.
His father, William Pillinger used to run the Prince Arthur Tavern in Arthur Street, Aston around 1901 and then the Regent's Park Tavern in Small Heath around 1911.
As I'm new to this site please forgive me if I've posted in the wrong place or inappropriately. but I would be very grateful for any other information that anyone can give.
I've just been working on some family history and I discovered that a first cousin twice removed was the Publican at the Wagon & Horse, Sheldon around 1911. In trying to find a bit more information on the pub and its history I came across this site and was delighted to find so much interesting information, together with the photographs.
In case anyone can delve even further back than Doug Copley's management of the pub, my relation was Leonard Pillinger and he ran the pub around 1911 according to the census returns, along with his sister and brother-in-law.
His father, William Pillinger used to run the Prince Arthur Tavern in Arthur Street, Aston around 1901 and then the Regent's Park Tavern in Small Heath around 1911.
As I'm new to this site please forgive me if I've posted in the wrong place or inappropriately. but I would be very grateful for any other information that anyone can give.
lindyloo
master brummie
Hi Westwitch, Welcome to the BHF from me Your post about The Wagon is in just the right place. I'm sorry to say I don't have any earlier information about the pub at the moment apart from the fact that it is said that the pub dated "from 1627 and that from the 1870's it also had Tea and Pleasure Gardens", but if I come across anything I will post it here. What kind of information are you looking for?
You may have already explored the site, but to find out if there is any info about the other pubs that you mentioned, you need to type in what you want to look for in the search box at the top right of the page. If you get stuck with anything there are sections on the home page where you can post a question, someone will come to your aid because they are a lovely, friendly lot on here.
Your post about The Wagon is in just the right place. I'm sorry to say I don't have any earlier information about the pub at the moment apart from the fact that it is said that the pub dated "from 1627 and that from the 1870's it also had Tea and Pleasure Gardens", but if I come across anything I will post it here. What kind of information are you looking for?You may have already explored the site, but to find out if there is any info about the other pubs that you mentioned, you need to type in what you want to look for in the search box at the top right of the page. If you get stuck with anything there are sections on the home page where you can post a question, someone will come to your aid because they are a lovely, friendly lot on here.
Westwich
Kellys lists Leonard George. Pillinger, as landlord of the Wagon & Horses at Sheldon in the 1912 & 1913 edition. It is a different landlord in the 1910 & 1915 editions., and Leonard is not listed in either of these years at another establishment. It would be reasonable to assume that the information was taken anytime from the second half of the year before to the first few months of the year given.
William Pillinger is listed:
No listing in 1892
1895-1905 wine & beer retailer 31 Arthur St
1908-1915 as a beer retailer at 215 Coventry Road
Not anywhere in 1921.
Description as a beer retailer would have meant his house was probably a beerhouse, ie only had a licence to sell beer, not spirits or wine
Kellys lists Leonard George. Pillinger, as landlord of the Wagon & Horses at Sheldon in the 1912 & 1913 edition. It is a different landlord in the 1910 & 1915 editions., and Leonard is not listed in either of these years at another establishment. It would be reasonable to assume that the information was taken anytime from the second half of the year before to the first few months of the year given.
William Pillinger is listed:
No listing in 1892
1895-1905 wine & beer retailer 31 Arthur St
1908-1915 as a beer retailer at 215 Coventry Road
Not anywhere in 1921.
Description as a beer retailer would have meant his house was probably a beerhouse, ie only had a licence to sell beer, not spirits or wine
lindyloo
master brummie
I thought it might not be the right place Mike as the initial enquiry was for The Wagon, but if you think its ok I will
1. Shows the position of the Prince Arthur in 1889 on Arthur Street
2. Shows the position of the Regents Park on the corner of Herbert Street where it met the Coventry Road
3 Shows the position of both Pubs in 1937 (the Regents Park isnt marked as PH but you can see the junction of the two roads and the building)
(As you can see Mike, I havent mastered the art of colouring the buildings in yet )
1. Shows the position of the Prince Arthur in 1889 on Arthur Street
2. Shows the position of the Regents Park on the corner of Herbert Street where it met the Coventry Road
3 Shows the position of both Pubs in 1937 (the Regents Park isnt marked as PH but you can see the junction of the two roads and the building)
(As you can see Mike, I havent mastered the art of colouring the buildings in yet
)Lindyloo and Mike - Thank you both for the speedy replies and for the warm welcome too!
From the info you've found in Kellys and my info from the census it seems that Leonard only ran the Wagon for 3-4 years. He was 24 in 1911, so quite young to run such a big pub I would have thought. I wonder where he went after that?
He appeared on the 1901 census living at the Regent's Park Tavern where his father William was shown as landlord. Leonard was 14 then and working as a plumber but his mother, brother and sister were all working in the pub. In all there were 9 children living there plus the parents and one servant, so it must have been a fairly large establishment.
Lindyloo - I've been researching my family for many years so have a lot of names and dates but I'm now looking for any information that would put a little flesh on the bones.
I don't have many family photographs but I thought it would add some interest to my records if I could include some photos of meaningful places.
I lived in Malmesbury Road, Small Heath when I was a child and yet I never knew that I had an ancestor who ran a pub in Sheldon until last night.
I have collected some old photos of various places around Birmingham from books and newspapers but I would be interested in any from around the 1940s -1960s.
From the info you've found in Kellys and my info from the census it seems that Leonard only ran the Wagon for 3-4 years. He was 24 in 1911, so quite young to run such a big pub I would have thought. I wonder where he went after that?
He appeared on the 1901 census living at the Regent's Park Tavern where his father William was shown as landlord. Leonard was 14 then and working as a plumber but his mother, brother and sister were all working in the pub. In all there were 9 children living there plus the parents and one servant, so it must have been a fairly large establishment.
Lindyloo - I've been researching my family for many years so have a lot of names and dates but I'm now looking for any information that would put a little flesh on the bones.
I don't have many family photographs but I thought it would add some interest to my records if I could include some photos of meaningful places.
I lived in Malmesbury Road, Small Heath when I was a child and yet I never knew that I had an ancestor who ran a pub in Sheldon until last night.
I have collected some old photos of various places around Birmingham from books and newspapers but I would be interested in any from around the 1940s -1960s.
lindyloo
master brummie
Hi Westwitch, I have found some more information which I believe is for your Leonard George. which hopefully will help you to establish his later whereabouts.
The Midlands and Various UK Trade Directories 1770-1941 on Ancestry have the following.
1912, Leonard George Pillinger, Wagon and Horses PH, Lyndon End
1916 " " " , Three Horse Shoes PH, Sheldon (just along the road from the Wagon)
1921 Same as 1916
1924, 1928 and 1932 Leonard Geo, Pillinger, Beacon Inn, Great Barr, Staffordshire
I looked for a birth for Leonard but could only find a match under George Leonard in 1886, 4th quarter Aston, Vol 6d page 268. This fits with the 1891 census which has him as George L with his parents William and Louisa in Sydney Road, Deritend, Aston.
This also matches the National Probate Calendar entry
Pillinger, George Leonard of The White Hart, Main Street, Birmingham 11. Died 19 April 1958 at Selly Oak Hospital, Birmingham. Administration Birmingham, 15 August to Doris Susette Pillinger, widow. Effects £823, 12s, 3d
George Leonard Pillinger married Doris S Nind Sep quarter 1911 Aston Vol 6d Page 440
I havent found him yet between 1932 and 1958 but you could post in the Electoral Roll threads to see if anyone will look him up for you. ( I don't have access to the Rolls)
I too have been researching my own family for many years and I know exactly what you mean about adding "flesh to the bones".
There are many wonderful photos on the site and I am sure the folk on here wont mind you saving them for your own records if you come across any that are relevant to you. If you find a picture as a thumbnail (small picture) you can click on it to enlarge and sometimes click again for a much larger image, then just drag it across to your "My Pictures" If you get stuck locating photos I will try and help.
Please be aware though that because the site was hacked a while back all of the photos were lost and the members are working really hard to replace what they can, so if you come across a bit where a photo should be you can try asking the individual member if they could repost or add a request on the end of the thread. Some photos are replaceable but sadly some are lost forever because the member may no longer be with us
The Midlands and Various UK Trade Directories 1770-1941 on Ancestry have the following.
1912, Leonard George Pillinger, Wagon and Horses PH, Lyndon End
1916 " " " , Three Horse Shoes PH, Sheldon (just along the road from the Wagon)
1921 Same as 1916
1924, 1928 and 1932 Leonard Geo, Pillinger, Beacon Inn, Great Barr, Staffordshire
I looked for a birth for Leonard but could only find a match under George Leonard in 1886, 4th quarter Aston, Vol 6d page 268. This fits with the 1891 census which has him as George L with his parents William and Louisa in Sydney Road, Deritend, Aston.
This also matches the National Probate Calendar entry
Pillinger, George Leonard of The White Hart, Main Street, Birmingham 11. Died 19 April 1958 at Selly Oak Hospital, Birmingham. Administration Birmingham, 15 August to Doris Susette Pillinger, widow. Effects £823, 12s, 3d
George Leonard Pillinger married Doris S Nind Sep quarter 1911 Aston Vol 6d Page 440
I havent found him yet between 1932 and 1958 but you could post in the Electoral Roll threads to see if anyone will look him up for you. ( I don't have access to the Rolls)
I too have been researching my own family for many years and I know exactly what you mean about adding "flesh to the bones".
There are many wonderful photos on the site and I am sure the folk on here wont mind you saving them for your own records if you come across any that are relevant to you. If you find a picture as a thumbnail (small picture) you can click on it to enlarge and sometimes click again for a much larger image, then just drag it across to your "My Pictures" If you get stuck locating photos I will try and help.
Please be aware though that because the site was hacked a while back all of the photos were lost and the members are working really hard to replace what they can, so if you come across a bit where a photo should be you can try asking the individual member if they could repost or add a request on the end of the thread. Some photos are replaceable but sadly some are lost forever because the member may no longer be with us
brummie nick
master brummie
Westwitch, do you have a Walter Pillinger among your family,? I have a friend who know a Walter Pillinger who had lived at the 'Cock Inn' Just up the Coventry Road at Elmdon,
Nick
Once again, many thanks for all this information and for the speed with which you've found it! The time and effort you have put in on my behalf is really appreciated and I am so pleased that I've found this site.
Lindyloo - I spent far too many hours last night just drooling over some of the many wonderful photos that are in your collections. They must have brought back many fond memories to a lot of people.
I left Birmingham in the mid 60s and I was astonished at how much everything had changed in such a relatively short space of time. Lovely to see so many of my old haunts too.
Mike - many thanks for trawling through the electoral rolls. It's brought it all into my era and I can now relate to times and places that I once knew.
Brummie nick - yes Walter is in my family tree. In fact he was a brother of the Leonard mentioned above and in 1911 he was living at the Regent's Park Tavern where his father William was landlord. but at that time his occupation was hairdressing.
I would be interested to know more about Walter and your friend because funnily enough, my Mom who is still alive and kicking at 99, has mentioned in the past that she thought my grandmother worked for a relation ata pub called the Cock Inn. I couldn't find anything about this, so just dismissed it, thinking she'd mistaken the name of the pub.
She will be delighted when I pass on all this new information to her.
Thank you all and sorry if I've led this thread a little off track but I do seem to be on a pub crawl at the moment!
Lindyloo - I spent far too many hours last night just drooling over some of the many wonderful photos that are in your collections. They must have brought back many fond memories to a lot of people.
I left Birmingham in the mid 60s and I was astonished at how much everything had changed in such a relatively short space of time. Lovely to see so many of my old haunts too.
Mike - many thanks for trawling through the electoral rolls. It's brought it all into my era and I can now relate to times and places that I once knew.
Brummie nick - yes Walter is in my family tree. In fact he was a brother of the Leonard mentioned above and in 1911 he was living at the Regent's Park Tavern where his father William was landlord. but at that time his occupation was hairdressing.
I would be interested to know more about Walter and your friend because funnily enough, my Mom who is still alive and kicking at 99, has mentioned in the past that she thought my grandmother worked for a relation ata pub called the Cock Inn. I couldn't find anything about this, so just dismissed it, thinking she'd mistaken the name of the pub.
She will be delighted when I pass on all this new information to her.
Thank you all and sorry if I've led this thread a little off track but I do seem to be on a pub crawl at the moment!