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The City of Birmingham - 46235

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I looked at the Think Tank link and was surprised to see the comment that the CofB locomotive was too big to run on modern railways.

I notice they refer to two other locos of the Class, Duchess Of Sutherland and Duchess of Hamilton. Duchess of Sutherland was recently operating in the Midlands, as the link will show, so maybe the Think Tank needs to think again! :biggrin:

https://www.tyseleylocoworks.co.uk/tours/tr_2014_0628.htm
 
There is often discussion as to whether "CoB" should be restored to working order - but now, with the passage of time, it is the ONLY remaining loco still in "As overhauled by British Railways" condition, all other steam loco survivors having had engineering and / or cosmetic work done to them. To return it to running would destroy that and there are others of the class operable and passed for main line work, so - do you destroy history for history's sake? IMHO not.
 
These monsters of yester-rail were not designed to be 'static' exhibits moving a few feet on command in an exhibition hall but to live in steam. It is perfectly possible for 46235 to be restored to working order as per BR condition and be based in the City (Tyseley) for people to visit and run the occasional excursion.

Mike.
 
This business about C of B and other Princess Coronation class loco not being able to fit into New Street station is an urban myth. I recall this 'story' doing the rounds amongst us rail enthusiasts in the 1950s. All locomotives and carriages must conform to the National Railway Loading Gauge. Nothing can be higher than a railway carriage. The only problem MIGHT be with the width clearance but I seem to recall seeing a photo of a Princess Coronation loco in New Street station in the 1960s.
 
Thanks to Carolina for that lovely photo and I must agree with Pistonvalve that a museum is no place for any steam locomotive. I would love to see C of B back on the rails doing what it was designed and built to do.
 
I was there on the day they moved the loco in & the driver of the lorry did it in one which was ano mean feat when you consider the width on the road at the Old Science Museum. I went down a lunchtime to see it & it was done by the time I had to go back to work!!
 
Hi

I wish the real truth about the 'myth' would come out! I lived by the railway at Stechford with a panoramic view of the New St/Aston split,
and in 15 years as a trainspotter during the 50's and early 60's I never saw a loco of this class take the New street line. When work was done
on the line whch I believe skirted Birmingham through Tamworth the trains were
diverted towards Birmingham (I believe from Coventry) but took the Aston fork and were frequently headed by these engines.
The National Railway Loading Gauge was I understand introduced by British Railways, but these engines predate this.

The height of a Princess Coronation loco is 13' 2", and I think this is higher than carriages of that period, - I have certainly seen pictures which
also suggest that.

The version of the 'myth' that I heard was that one of that class damaged its chimney in the tunnel.

Kind regards

Dave
 
I also heard the myth back in my train-spotting days and cannot remember ever seeing a "semi" at New Street, but there's a couple of photos of City of Nottingham 46251 taken at New Street in 1964 so perhaps it was just a myth.
Believing the myth was true, I have always thought that in this print by Robert Calvert he had used some artistic licence but now it could be for real, sorry about quality.

Colin
 

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The National loading gauge was introduced long before the 1930s, possibly one of the reasons why Brunell's broad gauge was abandoned.
The 1960s diversions due to the electrification of the west coast main line went via Rugby, Coventry, Stechford, Washwood Heath, Aston, Witton, Hamstead, Bescot and used the Wolverhampton Avoiding line onto Stafford where it rejoined the WCML.
 
perry commoner said:
The National loading gauge was introduced long before the 1930s, possibly one of the reasons why Brunell's broad gauge was abandoned.
The 1960s diversions due to the electrification of the west coast main line went via Rugby, Coventry, Stechford, Washwood Heath, Aston, Witton, Hamstead, Bescot and used the Wolverhampton Avoiding line onto Stafford where it rejoined the WCML.
Click to expand...
'
Standard Gauge track i.e. 4' 8.5" was always there from the beginning of our railway system in the 1830's. Brunel's Broad Gauge i.e. 7' 00" was introduced in 1844 and was finally abandoned on May 20th 1892. Todays "Standard Gauge" becoming the "norm". With the GWR, I believe, it was conformity with the rest of the railway track system that was the problem.. Interestingly, the old Broad Gauge did run into the GWR Snow Hill Station.
 
Getting it back out was a nightmare! He must gone forward and back over 2 dozen times, gaining a few inches each time until he could eventually pull away - I got tired of watching so went to my office in Great Charles St and had cuppa, and saw it finally make it down Gt Charles St!
 
 
Yeah, I too have seen several photo's of Coronation Class in New Street. But what the tunnel head clearance is now is unknown and it seems to me that the photo's of this engine were all taken on the up line to London. Maybe that was the only line to have the necessary head room. The stacks are very flush. I can't remember if any of the photo's were semi's though.
Bit daft to build engines for the LMS that would not fit into the second city station. What were they thinking if this is the case. Great looking engine with or without the streamlining. The last hurrah for steam although there is another one that was built recently that is not too shabby also. I can't imagine that you would want to run these heavy thumpers on track that modern light Pendulino style rolling stock runs on
 
Hi Rupert,

I agree, but having lived by the track throughout the 1950s, I can say with certainty that during that time,
I never saw one in use on the Stechford to New St Line. Maybe there was a weight problem
rather than the myth regarding the height. Perhaps the track was lowered in the 1960s.
Again, you wouldn't have expected the clearance in tunnels to be that critical.

Kind regards

Dave
 
https://www.railuk.info/members/steam/getsteam.php?row_id=10785

https://www.semaphoresandsteam.com/p127970527/h5FE186C2#h5fe186c2

A couple of links about the loco. It was always shedded at Crewe I understand and at some points in its career, being one the principal main line locos, it must have visited Birmingham New Street.

I know of the former LMS/BR main lines north of New Street, but being a GWR person I never used the London route from New Street. only the Paddington one, so I am not sure of its route southwards.
 
Princess Coronations were built for long haul expresses on the West Coast Main Line (ie London to Glasgow) It would be a waste of power to use them on the Wolverhampton-L-Birmingham- London route. This route was very ably handled by LMS Jubilee and LMS Black Fives based at Bushbury.
 
I remember the tale about clearances from my train-spotting days and after a bit of delving on the web it seems that there was limited clearance in a tunnel between New Street and Proofhouse Junction. As a part of a line upgrade this was opened out in 1961 by building an additional external lining to the tunnel and then using controlled explosions to remove the inner lining. As part of the West Coast main line upgrade quite a few "Duchesses" were diverted via New Street from about 1963.

This is City of London in 1963 https://www.flickr.com/photos/16749798@N08/3164834488/in/set-72157622673062635/

Regards

Sandy Brook
 
I heard the same story re 46235 City of Birmingham getting stuck in the tunnel whilst attempting to visit New Street Station from Proof House Junction for the centenary celebrations. I believe the chimney got damaged and also the lining of the tunnel. There was no problem with clearances from the Wolverhampton end.

The loco passed through the City on many occasions (Aston - Stetchford line) on Sundays whilst been diverted from its normal route - WCML. I lived close by in the 50's and saw it pulling the 'Royal Scott' express on its way north at about 12.30 PM.


Mike.
 
There was a rumour going round that City of Birmingham was going to be refurbished at Tyseley and brought back into steam. Unfortunately the cost of getting it to Tyseley could not be raised. Pity there are no entrepreneurs interested.
 
It will be a bit hard to get it out of Thinktank at Millennium Point now. Especially since the Thinktank Science Garden got built!

This is the view from inside Thinktank to the Science Garden



 
Rupert said:
Yeah, I too have seen several photo's of Coronation Class in New Street. But what the tunnel head clearance is now is unknown and it seems to me that the photo's of this engine were all taken on the up line to London. Maybe that was the only line to have the necessary head room. The stacks are very flush. I can't remember if any of the photo's were semi's though.
Bit daft to build engines for the LMS that would not fit into the second city station. What were they thinking if this is the case. Great looking engine with or without the streamlining. The last hurrah for steam although there is another one that was built recently that is not too shabby also. I can't imagine that you would want to run these heavy thumpers on track that modern light Pendulino style rolling stock runs on
Click to expand...


It seems that Semi's did reach new Street in the 1960's https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrbns_br2003.htm


I've read before that the ballast on railway lines has been raised, reducing the clearances that are available.
 
Hi

Nice picture, but just one academic point. The train is not standing at Platform 1 as stated in the article, but
at Platform 3. Platforms 1 and 2 were not through lines, but stopped just behind the stairway down from the overhead
bridge to Platform 3. You could walk through the gap to the bar at the back of Platform 1. Happy Days!

Kind regards

Dave
 
On another academic point, had 46257 arrived from somewhere up North, and is waiting to remove the stock to Vauxhall or was it a train bound for Euston?
 
Dave89 said:
Hi

Nice picture, but just one academic point. The train is not standing at Platform 1 as stated in the article, but
at Platform 3. Platforms 1 and 2 were not through lines, but stopped just behind the stairway down from the overhead
bridge to Platform 3. You could walk through the gap to the bar at the back of Platform 1. Happy Days!

Kind regards

Dave
Click to expand...


It is a very good site, but I have noticed mistakes in the past, however I never noticed this one.
 
In the Feb. 2015 issue 'Steam World', there is a photo of 46235 City of Birmingham on a 3 coach Crewe-Warrington train in 1955. It is fitted with a sloping smoke box boiler indicating that during its early years, it was one of the streamlined locomotives however, the locomotive in the Birmingham Museum has a straight smoke box. This raises an interesting question, did 46235 have a boiler change between 1955 and it being donated to the museum or is the present exhibit another locomotive purporting to be 46235?
 
perry commoner said:
In the Feb. 2015 issue 'Steam World', there is a photo of 46235 City of Birmingham on a 3 coach Crewe-Warrington train in 1955. It is fitted with a sloping smoke box boiler indicating that during its early years, it was one of the streamlined locomotives however, the locomotive in the Birmingham Museum has a straight smoke box. This raises an interesting question, did 46235 have a boiler change between 1955 and it being donated to the museum or is the present exhibit another locomotive purporting to be 46235?
Click to expand...

Hi, that seems like an odd working for a Princess Coronation Pacific! I've seen a nice colour picture of 46235 at Crewe North Shed in 1958 while wearing "Royal Highlander" headboards. According to the trustworthy folks at Wikipedia, it had a boiler change in 1952.
 
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