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St Cyprian's Church, Hay Mills

Hi All,

In post 10 Grog quotes the charge for examining the registers of St Cyprians as £19 for the first hour and £16 per hour after. In a later post he says that someone connected to the church must do the search owing to data restrictions etc.

I, personally, consider this excessive and do not accept the reasons given for persons not to be able to do the search themselves. Many parish registers are deposited in Public Record Offices and can be examined by anyone free. Birmingham Library is an example

I consider that parish registers are public records and they should all be available to view free of charge. Have I any supporters?

Old Boy
 
Yes, Old Boy, I agree with what you say, I didn't understand the reasoning for not being able to do personal searches. What about Bishop Transcripts, do they not exist?

I wouldn't be happy with someone esle doing a search for me, as being a touch OCD I really need to be able to do things myself, so be sure nothing has been missed. Also I have found, when trawling through registers, I might find a vital clue, that I know is a connection to the family I am searching, which another person would not pick up on.
 
from a handout by Stafford records office
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]you can search for him in the relevant parish register. Most parish registers are now kept [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]in the various County Record Offices, although there are still some that remain in the [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]churches. It is a good idea to check the whereabouts of the register before making a journey to the counyr records office. if it is still held by the church, it is usually because the [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]register is still in use and it will be necessary to contact the incumbent to settle a time [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]when it will be convenient for you to go and see them. There is a charge for this, but the amount is decided by the church officers.[/FONT][/FONT]
 
I'll address some the points made above. Firstly, St Cyprians parish records have not been deposited in the National Archive or Birmingham Library and are still held by the church who are under a legal duty of care to protect the document s themselves and also under a duty of confidentiallity of information in some instances, therefore the searching of the registers by individuals is not permited. Birmingham library has registers copied onto micro-film or may have them on-line by now, but they are in a form that addresses the above two issues of protecting the document and the data. The charges are set by the Church of England not the church itself. Also please remember the church itself is not a staffed organisation, it is opened by the wardens who do so on a voluntary basis and so arrangements need to be made to gain access. If anyone does request a search I expect that they would ask myself to undertake such a search, I do have a BA in History and have done a fair amount of genelogical and military historical reseach of my own to undertake the work. I have not seen the registers myself and I do have sympathy with the view of Old Boy that they should be free of charge, I've done enough research myself to appreciate this. However until they are deposited in the National archive and presented by them, then the situation we have persists. I don't know what the procedure is about depositing records in the National Archive, Birmingham Library does list some minutes of vestry meetings being held by them, but again I've not seen them. If anyone knows how they can be deposited or has experience of this I would be grateful to hear from them.
 
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hi Motherhen, was interested to read your post regarding old cottages as my grandparents lived there around 1909. Grandad worked as a brazier at Latch and Bachelor on the same site as Horsfall.I was told that they had to leave as there were loads of rats from the river and a baby in a pram was bitten and as they had a baby they were worried.They lived in several of the surrounding streets for the rest of their lives.Margaret
 
grog said:
I'll address some the points made above. Firstly, St Cyprians parish records have not been deposited in the National Archive or Birmingham Library and are still held by the church who are under a legal duty of care to protect the document s themselves and also under a duty of confidentiallity of information in some instances, therefore the searching of the registers by individuals is not permited. Birmingham library has registers copied onto micro-film or may have them on-line by now, but they are in a form that addresses the above two issues of protecting the document and the data.

Hello All,

I must take issue with Grog over the suggestion that personal examination is not permitted under a duty of confidentiality. I have visited numerous record offices and have always been allowed to examine the registers myself and for no charge.

I know that some churches retain the registers and make a charge for their examination. Kings Norton was one such church that I visited and was allowed to examinine the registers myself. I was charged but nothing like £19 although I admit that it was some years ago. I repeat that to me £19 for one hour is excessive and suirely prevents many people who wish to research their family history from doing so.

Old Boy
Click to expand...
 
I have to say I've been looking into this a bit myself, please remember records offices are not the churches, they are run by proffesional archivists not volunteers, St Cyprians is currently without a vicar so it is entirely run by volunteers. The charges form part of the Church of England parochial charges and details are available on their web site. To be honest i was surprised by the amount.

https://www.cofe.anglican.org/lifeevents/fees/2010feestable.pdf

I have no wish to hide behind a legal position and as I say I haven't seen St Cyprians registers so I don't know how far back they go or if they are in one volume. However they are legal documents and so the guardians ie the church wardens have to mindful of a) the protection of the document itself and b) if the registers are current then whether there is a Data Protection issue, I've tried to see if I can find some guidance on this without success only references again to a duty under that act. As I say I don't know if there is an issue with current data held in registers, however alot of this material can be found elsewhere FreeBMD comes to mind or at The Family History centre in Islington. These registers will only be of Baptisms and Marriages there is no churchyard at St Cyprians so they will be far from complete especially into the modern age. From my own point of view if I was asked by the wardens to search for someone I would have no problem in having them there by appointment, as it were, but it would have to be to in my own time when I am am available. I am thinking of getting the PCC to think about depositing the historic registers in the appropriate archive, if they can be split from those in use, which would be of benifit to all and remove any concerns or obligations to all.
 
Hello Grog.

I have had my say and believe me I have no quarrel with your goodself. If you can persuade the PCC to deposit the registers in the Record Office (In this case Birmingham Library) it can only be a good thing.

All the best. - Old Boy
 
To all who have an issue with the costs incurred in searching records, I can sympathise with the feeling that costs are high and that there are instances where "assistance" is "provided" and the person requesting or seeking the information is not allowed to conduct the search themselves. As explained, it is not always possible to personally do the research oneself for what appears a multitude of reasons. But have sympathy for the mugs like me who do not reside in England and HAVE to rely on proffessional (or other) researchers. Yes, those people do spend their time doing the hard work but they do it through choice. Most are dedicated and do it because they WANT to do it. For many, who are often alone in the world, it is more than a hobby or work choice, it is their life. However, for those like me, 19 or 20 pounds becomes something like 42 to 44 dollars because of crippling exchange rates. So yes, I have to agree the costs involved are, for me (a pensioner), way too high. Over the past 10 months, I have spent in excess of 2000 Aussie dollars in obtaining proffessional reseach, access to BMD Records and GRO Certificates at close to 20 Aussie dollars each. And I am still a long way off what I want to achieve. BUT --- I will soldier on. And I will still find help from the myriad of sites like this. So thanks to you all. Keep up the good work.

OldBrummie.
 
Old Boy said:
Hello Grog.

I have had my say and believe me I have no quarrel with your goodself. If you can persuade the PCC to deposit the registers in the Record Office (In this case Birmingham Library) it can only be a good thing.

All the best. - Old Boy
Click to expand...

No offence taken at all Old Boy, believe me we do share the same view. The issue of the registers has come up because we were handed them when the last Vicar retired and so have had the responsibilty dropped on us as it were. I will make a suggestion to the PCC that they explore the correct way of depositing those historic registers into the record office, that route may be via the Birmingham diocese office, and thence to Birmingham Libary, I will have to find out.


Best Regards

Grog
 
Earlier this week, I contacted Birmingham Archives & Heritage Service (at the Central Library), suggesting that they might be interested in looking at this thread. Here is their reply (received this morning)
Thank you for your email.
Birmingham Archives & Heritage Service already retains a set of parish registers fro St. Cyprian's Church, Hay Mills (EP 88) :
Baptisms 1861 - 1933
Marriages 1869 - 1935
These records are available to view on floor 6 of Birmingham Central Library in our archival Secure Area where readers require some form of identification as identified by the CARN ticket attachment to view materials. The Secure Area is open Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday & Saturday 10 am - 5 pm and 10 am - 8 pm Thursday.
(See attached file: CARN ticket info.doc)
Staff at St. Cyprians can contact our Acquisitions Archivist, Corinna Rayner at archives.heritage@birmingham.gov.uk regarding the deposit of records. Ms. Rayner will assess the requirements of any potential donations and deal with channels of communication.
​
I hope that this information is useful to those looking for records
 
leslam,

Thanks for that very helpful, I was under the impression, that people had failed to find the registers at Birmingham Library see post #3 by OldBrummie, which led me to believe we had all of them, as I 've said I've not even seen the registers myself. Certainly EP 88 is the reference I saw for the registers of Vestry meetings etc . I will enquire with the PCC as to the periods covered by the records we hold with a view, if they are not current, to get them sent to the archives. I can't believe that the current registers go back to the 1930's but then again who knows, Hay Mills is a small parish over half of which is industrial land. In recent years marriages and Christenings have been few and far between. We are of course open for weddings and christenings and as you can see from the photos posted on wikipeadia the church's interior is delightful. End of shameless plug

Here is a link to the National Archive detailing exactly what is held at Birmingham https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=143-ep88&cid=1#1
 
Hi Andrew, I got married at St Cyprians Church in September 1978 and the wedding was conducted by the Rev Fennel who performed my christening 19 years previously ! Within 4 months he conducted my wedding, followed by niece's christening and in January 1979 my father's funeral.

Rev Fennell lived at the vicarage at St Chads Church in Waterloo Road, and I attended Brownies and Guides at St Chads.

I should imagine access to St Cyps would be via the vicarage at St Chads.
 
Gbrownhill said:
I should imagine access to St Cyps would be via the vicarage at St Chads.
Click to expand...

No, this is not the case now. St Chads in Waterloo Road was sold by St Cyps, in 1985 I think, and it is now used by another Christain group. The current vicarage and curate's cottage are the converted cottages next to the church, but these are currently rented out by Webster Horsfall to tennants. Webster Horsfall still own the cottages and the church for that matter and this position will remain until we have a new vicar who wishes to take up residence there. Our previous incumbant didn't live at the vicarage. Webster Horsfall have given an undertaking that the vicarage will be availabale to the next "Priest in charge" as the official title is of St Cyprians' vicar, if required.
For contact details for the church wardens please visit the achurchnearyou website.
https://www.achurchnearyou.com/venue.php?V=7326&P=1

There is musical concert to be held on the evening of 31st July 2010 entitiled Three men and Lady featuring the church organist Margaret Croucher. I believe free admission was stated on the church notices posted which I saw yesterday when I visited. An opportunity for secular visitors to view the delightfull interior of the church first hand in a non religious context.
 
My Hubby and I are off on one of our drives out today, so we are intending to go and take some photos of the exterior of the Church, Hall and Cottages and the entrance to the Works. Hope the rain holds off for us. :)
 
I hope it does too, I was down there yesterday to dead head some roses in the Memorial Garden, small but with a good amount of colour now and in the newly acquired planter under the church sign. Its all double yellow lines by the church, but you can park in front of the schoolroom or just park in the Next car park about 100 yards away and walk down. If there's a blue Rover 75 by the church then my wife is there doing the flowers and yuo can have a look round, I'm not sure if she intends to do them today or if so, what time. Conversely, you may strike lucky and find of the other wardens there.
 
I am glad you liked the church and the garden, people have put a lot of hardwork into it. It is increasingly difficult with a declining congregation, you can see the area is largely industrial, to keep what really is a little gem of a church going. You don't say if you were able to see inside but if not I'm sure we will have other open days in the furture.
 
Motherhen, Thanks for the photo. The old roses do look very nice this time of year. There was a debate about whether they were worth keeping but I persuaded the gardening crew that with a good pruning and regular deadheading they would perform well and they do. We did take a lot out though many were really past it with next to no roots, but we replaced all of them with new Roses from donations by the congregation. We have nade it a memorial garden so that people could make a donation of however much they could afford, many are elderly you see, and we then asked them what type of plant or rose they would like and then have had made a small credit card sized name tag with a dedication In Memorium to al loved one with maybe there name of the deceased and a small inscription. The cemetaries charge a lot of money for a rose and it was outside the price of many of our regulars so we decided to do this. We relaid the lawn last Autumn as well and planted a few small trees in the Big Tree plant for the Guiness book of records that took place last Autumn as well and the planter under the church sign was put in this spring and was planted with Daffs and spring flowers, but has just been replanted to a summer dispaly that you saw yestarday and will ring the changes with a winter display to keep it fresh throughout the year.
 
Well it certainly makes all the difference, it's a little oasis in that industrial area and even if they don't give it too much thought, I imagine it brightens up the day for the men working opposite, who were giving me some funny looks as I went around with my camera.
 
Just a bit of an update as I know some people would like to know of events so they can see the church in a non-religious setting so on October 23 there is a Concertina band concert in the church and a
Christmas Concert on Friday 10th December 2010 at 7:30 pm for 2 hours Come and join in or listen in the church. On Saturday 11th members of the congregation will be singing carols outside the memorial hall followed by aservice in the church, mince pies and tea and coffee will be available in the School room. There will also be a Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve commencing with carols at 11pm and there will be a Boxing Day service at 10am on 26th December 2010. All are welcom eto jpoin in the service or just have a look at the church at Christmas.
 
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I've just updated the Christmas events in this thread as some may wish to visit us over the festive season and despite having no vicar we are still open. I still haven't managed to acquire a scanner to scan in the photos I have but I'm still working on it.
 
Just resurrecting this thread to give everyone the heads up about St Cyprians 140th anniversary celebrations which are taking place next weekend to coincide with St Cyprians feast day. On Saturday Queen Victoria, accompanied by her personal attendant Mr Brown, will open the events which will take place in the memorial hall. The church will be open for all who wish to visit and see this outstanding Victorian gem in the heart of the city. On Sunday, Vicar Rev Roy Anetts will be finally inaugurated at a special Sunday service by the Bishop of Birmingham, David Urquhart.
 
Both my parents and (very) many of the extended families would have been thrilled to be able to attend. But sadly, they are all in the past.

OldBrummie.
 
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