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Southall, John

H

HCastle

proper brummie kid
Hi

I've been researching my nan's family for about a year now, but am stuck - would anyone be able to help me?

My Nan was Nellie May Southall, born 4 Feb 1889. Her marriage certificate (to Frederick Arthur Hall in 1911) shows her fathers name as John Southall, Labourer, but I can't seem to find anything about him, or who my great grandmother is.

The only other bit of information I have, is on Nellie May's married certificate showing her address as 57 Kendall Road, she was a spinster and the church was Christ Church, Sparkbrook. The witnesses were linked to my grandad.

Any help would be gratefully appreciated.

Thanks
 
Could she be the Ellen May Southall born in Old Swinford 1888 (reg Stourbridge), daughter of John Southall and Mary Ann Cox?

Her father, John Southall was a Bricklayer's Labourer.
 
Looks like the marriage address is a convenience one. It is occupied by a Mrs Allen , widow (cannot read Christian name) with her 3 daughters and 4 sons
 
MWS said:
Could she be the Ellen May Southall born in Old Swinford 1888 (reg Stourbridge), daughter of John Southall and Mary Ann Cox?

Her father, John Southall was a Bricklayer's Labourer.
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Thanks MWS but I've looked into her before and the DOB is different and she got married. - my nan was a spinster according to her marriage certificate to my grandad
 
mikejee said:
Looks like the marriage address is a convenience one. It is occupied by a Mrs Allen , widow (cannot read Christian name) with her 3 daughters and 4 sons
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Thanks Mikejee. So, does that mean that might not have been their address? The marriage certificate shows 57 Kendal Road for both my nan and my grandad - would they have needed to live separately prior to being married?
 
If one of the parties did not live in the area covered by the church they wanted to marry in then often they gave another address, of a friend who was OK with that
 
From https://www.theguardian.com/news/2007/apr/14/guardianspecial4.guardianspecial211 :

Sadly, the addresses on marriage certificates are often misleading, as getting hitched on the cheap meant jumping through a few hoops. The cheapest Church of England marriages involved the reading of banns. The banns had to be read over three successive Sundays in a parish church and the parties had to be living in the parish for at least a week before banns were read. Often, therefore, the address on a marriage certificate is no more than an address of convenience.
 
HCastle said:
Thanks MWS but I've looked into her before and the DOB is different and she got married. - my nan was a spinster according to her marriage certificate to my grandad
Click to expand...
It is worth bearing in mind that "sometimes" the information on a marriage certificate may actually be untrue.

I have marriage certificates for some of my ancestors whereby ages of one or both parties are incorrect, also name of father (when they are actually illegitimate (and father unknown), and their marital status i e my GG Grandmother said she was a widow (when she was actually a spinster who had given birth to at least 4 children previously. I also have a certificate for another GG Grandmother whereby the groom said he was a bachelor when in fact he was still married (his first wife had been transported to VDL in 1844).

William.
 
mikejee said:
From https://www.theguardian.com/news/2007/apr/14/guardianspecial4.guardianspecial211 :

Sadly, the addresses on marriage certificates are often misleading, as getting hitched on the cheap meant jumping through a few hoops. The cheapest Church of England marriages involved the reading of banns. The banns had to be read over three successive Sundays in a parish church and the parties had to be living in the parish for at least a week before banns were read. Often, therefore, the address on a marriage certificate is no more than an address of convenience.
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Thank you Mikejee, the information is much appreciated. Very interesting read and gives me some other potential avenues to explore - I'll do some wider searches.
 
williamjukes said:
It is worth bearing in mind that "sometimes" the information on a marriage certificate may actually be untrue.

I have marriage certificates for some of my ancestors whereby ages of one or both parties are incorrect, also name of father (when they are actually illegitimate (and father unknown), and their marital status i e my GG Grandmother said she was a widow (when she was actually a spinster who had given birth to at least 4 children previously. I also have a certificate for another GG Grandmother whereby the groom said he was a bachelor when in fact he was still married (his first wife had been transported to VDL in 1844).

William.
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Gosh William! That must make tracing ancestors very difficult. Amazing that you were able to uncover all this.

My G grandfather was a policeman when he married my G grandmother, so I might try there.

Thanks
Helen
 
HCastle said:
Gosh William! That must make tracing ancestors very difficult. Amazing that you were able to uncover all this.

My G grandfather was a policeman when he married my G grandmother, so I might try there.

Thanks
Helen
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I've checked my G grandad's police record and it shows the same information for my G grandmother as the marriage certificate. It says he lived at 31 All Saints Road, Handsworth at the time he joined the force in 1903 (married in June 1911) but I can't find anything for that address for check for any more clues. The 1911 census, he lived at Bordesley Green Police Station.
 
Hopefully the 1921 census will point you in the right direction. Just with a place of birth would allow to you expand your search to possible illegitimate children etc in that area.

And only 6 months to wait.
 
Nellies' date of birth on 1939 and her death in 1977 give date of birth as 4th February 1889 there are 2 born in that qtr
one in Stourbridge and the other registered West Bromwich.
 
Question for those more experienced than me...

I have a question about illegitimacy and society norms regarding where people would live and work.

I am researching Nellie May Southall DOB 04.02.1889. Lived in Birmingham, father on her marriage certificate being John Southall. No other information before she was married.

I have found on the 1891 census a Nellie Southall, 2 Bridge Row, Deritend, Aston. She is listed as 10 months old (if born if Feb, would be 14 months old) and a visitor. She is living with Mary J Southall, age 19, single, visitor and a domestic. Also living at the address is John Tomlinson, age 20, single and 3 other people (relatives to John).

1. Do you think it likely that Mary J Southall is Nellie's mom?
Assuming illegitimacy, is it normal to take the mothers name as a surname? As Mary is a visitor and a domestic - is she a domestic at the property for the family? I thought an unmarried or married female would loose her job if she had a baby? 1881 Census, I've found her living with relatives in Derbyshire although she was born in Selly Oak. I can't find her on the 1901 census and I can't find Nellie either or a record of Nellie's birth. Nellie's residency in 1911 at the time she married may have been a convenience address as she is not listed on the census (per advice previously given in this tread).

2. Do you think it likely that John Tomlinson is Nellie's dad, or is this far too much to assume?
Would it be acceptable for an illegitimate child to live with unmarried parents in 1891? John goes on to marry someone else and have a family.

On another note, isn't it easy to get hooked on family history and researching! Fascinating! Although sometimes, I have to remind myself to live in the present :)

Thanks
 
HCastle said:
Question for those more experienced than me...

I have a question about illegitimacy and society norms regarding where people would live and work.

I am researching Nellie May Southall DOB 04.02.1889. Lived in Birmingham, father on her marriage certificate being John Southall. No other information before she was married.

I have found on the 1891 census a Nellie Southall, 2 Bridge Row, Deritend, Aston. She is listed as 10 months old (if born if Feb, would be 14 months old) and a visitor. She is living with Mary J Southall, age 19, single, visitor and a domestic. Also living at the address is John Tomlinson, age 20, single and 3 other people (relatives to John).

1. Do you think it likely that Mary J Southall is Nellie's mom?
Assuming illegitimacy, is it normal to take the mothers name as a surname? As Mary is a visitor and a domestic - is she a domestic at the property for the family? I thought an unmarried or married female would loose her job if she had a baby? 1881 Census, I've found her living with relatives in Derbyshire although she was born in Selly Oak. I can't find her on the 1901 census and I can't find Nellie either or a record of Nellie's birth. Nellie's residency in 1911 at the time she married may have been a convenience address as she is not listed on the census (per advice previously given in this tread).

2. Do you think it likely that John Tomlinson is Nellie's dad, or is this far too much to assume?
Would it be acceptable for an illegitimate child to live with unmarried parents in 1891? John goes on to marry someone else and have a family.

On another note, isn't it easy to get hooked on family history and researching! Fascinating! Although sometimes, I have to remind myself to live in the present :)

Thanks
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It’s a good question in that in history there is never a subjective truth. It not just that the prospective has change or the documentation does not support the assumed facts, we have to also explore too how our culture has changes over the past 120 year too.

Marriage really was a financial contract for wealthy people and not such a big deal for everyday working folks. Lots of people most certainly lived in what we now call sin and had children out of wedlock. A lot of working people also did not care too much about record keeping and registering births etc, so a lot of inaccuracy’s would creep in.

Working people in Victorian times were so overwhelmed by poverty and meeting basic need that maintaining illegitimacy would have been very low down on their list of priority’s

Because your right.jpg
 
Alberta said:
Nellies' date of birth on 1939 and her death in 1977 give date of birth as 4th February 1889 there are 2 born in that qtr
one in Stourbridge and the other registered West Bromwich.
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Both these births have mmn showing - could be false but might be worth checking out
1643282305418.png
 
On the other hand have you tried this? Years are often wrong as less importance was placed on actual age then - no pensions to claim etc.
1643282433410.png
That might fit better with age on 1891 census.
If born Feb 1889 then on 1891 census she would have been 2yrs.
 
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This may be the wrong people for you but does seem to be the birth from 1890.
1643285418294.png

In 1901 George, Ellen and a Nellie are living together in Yardley. Is this too much of a coincidence?
1643285559397.png
Address is 104 Oakwood Road.
 
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As I know it is not the John you referred to as her Father's name I suspect that this 1891 census entry may not be the Nellie you are looking for. The alternative is that the Father's name was incorect for some reason.
Have you Nellie on later censuses - if so where is her place of birth?

Just one extra - when Mary J marries she gives Father's name as William and occupation as fitter - same as George.
 
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I am fairly certain the Nellie on the 1891 census is linked to the posts I have made about birth, marriage and 1901 census but I have no idea if it is your Nellie.
Someone else on the forum might like to check these out and see if they agree with me.
 
Nellie is on the 1901 census at 104 oakwood road Yardley with her father George Southall and mother Ellen nee Tomlinson also Ellen Tomlinson nee Cooke sister of Henry Cooke whose house the family live with in 1891.
This Nellie was born in June 1890.
I presume that Mary J Southall was related to George and John Tomlinson to Ellen.and neither of them is parent to Nellie.
 
That is what I thought, Alberta. I think Mary is George's sister and John might be Ellen's son as he is down as a nephew to Henry Cooke. However, I am not sure this is the Nellie who is related to Hcastle as per post #1.
 
In 1921 Nellie's birth is listed as 1887 Staffordshire, though I'd hesitate to take that for gospel.

What was the occupation of Nellie's father on her marriage? Does it match George's in 1911?
 
Nellie's Father John is given as a labourer. When he marries George is a bycycle spring fitter. I doubt that the Nellie who is George's daughter is the one we are looking for but is the one on the 1891 census.
 
pjmburns said:
As I know it is not the John you referred to as her Father's name I suspect that this 1891 census entry may not be the Nellie you are looking for. The alternative is that the Father's name was incorect for some reason.
Have you Nellie on later censuses - if so where is her place of birth?

Just one extra - when Mary J marries she gives Father's name as William and occupation as fitter - same as George.
Click to expand...
I've picked up the date of birth as 4 Feb 1189 from the 1939 register but don't have a place of birth. John is picked up from her marriage certificate.
 
MWS said:
In 1921 Nellie's birth is listed as 1887 Staffordshire, though I'd hesitate to take that for gospel.

What was the occupation of Nellie's father on her marriage? Does it match George's in 1911?
Click to expand...
Marriage cert is John Southall - labourer
 
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Alberta said:
Nellie is on the 1901 census at 104 oakwood road Yardley with her father George Southall and mother Ellen nee Tomlinson also Ellen Tomlinson nee Cooke sister of Henry Cooke whose house the family live with in 1891.
This Nellie was born in June 1890.
I presume that Mary J Southall was related to George and John Tomlinson to Ellen.and neither of them is parent to Nellie.
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Thank you. I'm not sure if this is my Nellie as her marriage cert lists John Southall as her father. I am aware mistakes can be made but I'm guessing this wouldn't be a mistake?
 
HCastle said:
Thank you. I'm not sure if this is my Nellie as her marriage cert lists John Southall as her father. I am aware mistakes can be made but I'm guessing this wouldn't be a mistake?
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The birth, marriage and 1901 census I posted all point to the Nellie you found with Mary J on the 1891 NOT being the one you want.
Remember in 1890s to early 1900s Handsworth came under Staffordshire with births reg in West Bromwich.
I think either her Father was John or she was illegitimate and gave that name to save face.
 
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