Rose & Crown, Cliveland St.

[Sadbrewer]

Hi All
I'm just researching my Brummy roots, and found my GGG Grandmother Letticia Hall, in the 1851 Census was a publican at 29 Cliveland St.
The name of the pub is not given, but No 30 next door is a Beerhouse run by G Evans, I have found that was the Red Lion.
A later record from 1869 suggests that No 29 was the Rose & Crown. Was it also known as the Rose&Crown in earlier times and how long did Letticia and family run the place?
It seems that in later years No 30 was the address of Turner Bros, toolmakers.
I'm just wondering if any photo's exist of the buildings, but also wonder if any re-numbering took place that might affect things....any help you can give will be most appreciated.
Andy

 

[mikejee]

There appears to have been no renumbering of the street. No 29 does not appear in later directories, and no 30 , as a retail brewer disappears between the 1900 and 1903 editions. Looking at these directory entries below, it appears that no 29 was previously held by Thomas Hall (husband?) and that both ceased being public houses/beerhouses around the middle of the 1850s. The fact that two different directories (published same year but with different survey dates) suggests 29 stopped being a pub just before 1855, while no 30 does not seem to be listed around 1852. sometime around 1960 no 30 again became a licensed premises, but this ended around 1900

From directories. the dates are publication dates, which in later years will probably be the year before, but in earlier directories dates can be rather variable

1839 29 Cliveland St, Charles Haddon, beer retailer

1839 30 Cliveland St , James Hill, beer retailer

1841 29 Cliveland St, Thomas Hall, beer retailer

1845 29 Cliveland St, Thomas Hall, beer retailer

1845 30 Cliveland St, William Price, beer retailer

1850 29 Cliveland St.Mrs Leticia Hall, beer retailer

1850 30 Cliveland St, John Jackson, beer retailer

1852 29 Cliveland St.Mrs Leticia Hall, beer retailer

1855 Whites Directory 29 Cliveland St, Thomas Markland, retail brewer

1855 P.O. Directory 29 Cliveland St, George Figgers, shopkeeper

1858 26 &29 Cliveland St, Alfred Bullock, corn miller

1862 29 Cliveland St, Henry Smith (no trade)

1862 30 Cliveland St, Charles Cotterill, retail brewer

1867 30 Cliveland St, John Griffin, beer retailer

1868 30 Cliveland St, Alexander Dunn beer retailer

1872 30 Cliveland St, James Shaw beer retailer

1873 30 Cliveland St.James Alfred Crompton, beerhouse

1874 30 Cliveland St, John Smith beer retailer

1878 30 Cliveland St, Joseph Coldicott, beer retailer

1879 30 Cliveland St, John Smith beer retailer

1880-84 30 Cliveland St, William Biddle, beer retailer

1888-90 30 Cliveland St, Henry Woodfull, beer retailer

1892 30 Cliveland St, Thomas Pittaway, beer retailer

1895-7 30 Cliveland St, Edmund Murrell, beer retailer

1899 30 Cliveland St, George Stokes, beer retailer

1900 30 Cliveland St, Richard Mackenzie, beer retailer

1903 No listing of no 30

 

[Sadbrewer]

There appears to have been no renumbering of the street. No 29 does not appear in later directories, and no 30 , as a retail brewer disappears between the 1900 and 1903 editions. Looking at these directory entries below, it appears that no 29 was previously held by Thomas Hall (husband?) and that both ceased being public houses/beerhouses around the middle of the 1850s. The fact that two different directories (published same year but with different survey dates) suggests 29 stopped being a pub just before 1855, while no 30 does not seem to be listed around 1852. sometime around 1960 no 30 again became a licensed premises, but this ended around 1900

From directories. the dates are publication dates, which in later years will probably be the year before, but in earlier directories dates can be rather variable

1839 29 Cliveland St, Charles Haddon, beer retailer

1839 30 Cliveland St , James Hill, beer retailer

1841 29 Cliveland St, Thomas Hall, beer retailer

1845 29 Cliveland St, Thomas Hall, beer retailer

1845 30 Cliveland St, William Price, beer retailer

1850 29 Cliveland St.Mrs Leticia Hall, beer retailer

1850 30 Cliveland St, John Jackson, beer retailer

1852 29 Cliveland St.Mrs Leticia Hall, beer retailer

1855 Whites Directory 29 Cliveland St, Thomas Markland, retail brewer

1855 P.O. Directory 29 Cliveland St, George Figgers, shopkeeper

1858 26 &29 Cliveland St, Alfred Bullock, corn miller

1862 29 Cliveland St, Henry Smith (no trade)

1862 30 Cliveland St, Charles Cotterill, retail brewer

1867 30 Cliveland St, John Griffin, beer retailer

1868 30 Cliveland St, Alexander Dunn beer retailer

1872 30 Cliveland St, James Shaw beer retailer

1873 30 Cliveland St.James Alfred Crompton, beerhouse

1874 30 Cliveland St, John Smith beer retailer

1878 30 Cliveland St, Joseph Coldicott, beer retailer

1879 30 Cliveland St, John Smith beer retailer

1880-84 30 Cliveland St, William Biddle, beer retailer

1888-90 30 Cliveland St, Henry Woodfull, beer retailer

1892 30 Cliveland St, Thomas Pittaway, beer retailer

1895-7 30 Cliveland St, Edmund Murrell, beer retailer

1899 30 Cliveland St, George Stokes, beer retailer

1900 30 Cliveland St, Richard Mackenzie, beer retailer

1903 No listing of no 30

Hi Mike....many thanks for that, Thomas was indeed Letticia's husband. In the 1841 Census they are living at 29 Cliveland St, Thomas' occupation is caster, non is given for Letticia, but it's not unreasonable to suggest she was running the pub. From your info I now know she was there from around 1840 to at least 1852, possibly 54/5.....thanks again!!
I've been going through the old newspapers and it seems the pubs both carried on for a number of years.
Letticia is still there in 1851 but is a widow.
By 1861 Letticia has married a John Dickens, they are living at 64 New John St...John's occupation is public house musician....it seems they took a grocery business, or was it a pub that was turned into a grocery? ( or at least it was in 1871..see attachment)

 

[Sadbrewer]

Just to follow that up

Courtyards and yards of brum

Bob. The canal is marked as that, but , because only a small section of the map is shown, this does not appear, though the t of towpath does appear on th e edge. The larger scale map from 1889 seems to show that the steps go up to a bridge over the canal

birminghamhistory.co.uk

I wonder if anyone can pick out No's 29 and 30 from this shot?

 

[mikejee]

From the c1889 map m arrangement of doorways and alleys to back court, and the fact that the 1920 electoral roll shows that an entrance to court 5 was between nos 30 and 31, I have marked numbering on the photo

 

[Sadbrewer]

Hi Mike
I cannot thank you enough for your help.
I'm just in the process of retiring from my own Pub/Brewery after 32 years, as you can imagine its particularly interesting for me to know that my ancestors were doing exactly the same thing in Victorian times...and to get a photo of the old premises is the icing on the cake.
Whilst I've been looking through the newspapers I've found a number of other pubs and businesses on Cliveland St....when I've got a few spare mins I'll post them on the forum, you never know if any have slipped under the radar of the trade directories, they might just be useful to other Members.
Thanks Again
Andy

 

[mikejee]

Glad to help

 

[Clairehnc]

There appears to have been no renumbering of the street. No 29 does not appear in later directories, and no 30 , as a retail brewer disappears between the 1900 and 1903 editions. Looking at these directory entries below, it appears that no 29 was previously held by Thomas Hall (husband?) and that both ceased being public houses/beerhouses around the middle of the 1850s. The fact that two different directories (published same year but with different survey dates) suggests 29 stopped being a pub just before 1855, while no 30 does not seem to be listed around 1852. sometime around 1960 no 30 again became a licensed premises, but this ended around 1900

From directories. the dates are publication dates, which in later years will probably be the year before, but in earlier directories dates can be rather variable

1839 29 Cliveland St, Charles Haddon, beer retailer

1839 30 Cliveland St , James Hill, beer retailer

1841 29 Cliveland St, Thomas Hall, beer retailer

1845 29 Cliveland St, Thomas Hall, beer retailer

1845 30 Cliveland St, William Price, beer retailer

1850 29 Cliveland St.Mrs Leticia Hall, beer retailer

1850 30 Cliveland St, John Jackson, beer retailer

1852 29 Cliveland St.Mrs Leticia Hall, beer retailer

1855 Whites Directory 29 Cliveland St, Thomas Markland, retail brewer

1855 P.O. Directory 29 Cliveland St, George Figgers, shopkeeper

1858 26 &29 Cliveland St, Alfred Bullock, corn miller

1862 29 Cliveland St, Henry Smith (no trade)

1862 30 Cliveland St, Charles Cotterill, retail brewer

1867 30 Cliveland St, John Griffin, beer retailer

1868 30 Cliveland St, Alexander Dunn beer retailer

1872 30 Cliveland St, James Shaw beer retailer

1873 30 Cliveland St.James Alfred Crompton, beerhouse

1874 30 Cliveland St, John Smith beer retailer

1878 30 Cliveland St, Joseph Coldicott, beer retailer

1879 30 Cliveland St, John Smith beer retailer

1880-84 30 Cliveland St, William Biddle, beer retailer

1888-90 30 Cliveland St, Henry Woodfull, beer retailer

1892 30 Cliveland St, Thomas Pittaway, beer retailer

1895-7 30 Cliveland St, Edmund Murrell, beer retailer

1899 30 Cliveland St, George Stokes, beer retailer

1900 30 Cliveland St, Richard Mackenzie, beer retailer

1903 No listing of no 30

I’m Alexander Dunn’s great granddaughter x

 

[Clairehnc]

There appears to have been no renumbering of the street. No 29 does not appear in later directories, and no 30 , as a retail brewer disappears between the 1900 and 1903 editions. Looking at these directory entries below, it appears that no 29 was previously held by Thomas Hall (husband?) and that both ceased being public houses/beerhouses around the middle of the 1850s. The fact that two different directories (published same year but with different survey dates) suggests 29 stopped being a pub just before 1855, while no 30 does not seem to be listed around 1852. sometime around 1960 no 30 again became a licensed premises, but this ended around 1900

From directories. the dates are publication dates, which in later years will probably be the year before, but in earlier directories dates can be rather variable

1839 29 Cliveland St, Charles Haddon, beer retailer

1839 30 Cliveland St , James Hill, beer retailer

1841 29 Cliveland St, Thomas Hall, beer retailer

1845 29 Cliveland St, Thomas Hall, beer retailer

1845 30 Cliveland St, William Price, beer retailer

1850 29 Cliveland St.Mrs Leticia Hall, beer retailer

1850 30 Cliveland St, John Jackson, beer retailer

1852 29 Cliveland St.Mrs Leticia Hall, beer retailer

1855 Whites Directory 29 Cliveland St, Thomas Markland, retail brewer

1855 P.O. Directory 29 Cliveland St, George Figgers, shopkeeper

1858 26 &29 Cliveland St, Alfred Bullock, corn miller

1862 29 Cliveland St, Henry Smith (no trade)

1862 30 Cliveland St, Charles Cotterill, retail brewer

1867 30 Cliveland St, John Griffin, beer retailer

1868 30 Cliveland St, Alexander Dunn beer retailer

1872 30 Cliveland St, James Shaw beer retailer

1873 30 Cliveland St.James Alfred Crompton, beerhouse

1874 30 Cliveland St, John Smith beer retailer

1878 30 Cliveland St, Joseph Coldicott, beer retailer

1879 30 Cliveland St, John Smith beer retailer

1880-84 30 Cliveland St, William Biddle, beer retailer

1888-90 30 Cliveland St, Henry Woodfull, beer retailer

1892 30 Cliveland St, Thomas Pittaway, beer retailer

1895-7 30 Cliveland St, Edmund Murrell, beer retailer

1899 30 Cliveland St, George Stokes, beer retailer

1900 30 Cliveland St, Richard Mackenzie, beer retailer

1903 No listing of no 30