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Peaky Blinders - A world away from Downton!

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Ar that’s it Alberta, the works were at Armourer Mills in Sparkbrook. Bostin’ to hear there’s a blue plaque there an’ all – wouldn’t mind see a snap of that sometime?

See y’ve been looking at the same stuff I found about their armoured cars Mike, but did y’clock the bit about some of ’em being sold to the Russian Imperial Army in 1915, and some more then going out to the Caucasus a year later as part of the Royal Naval Air Service’s expeditionary force?

Looks like there’s a historic precedent for things behind the story in Peaky Blinders then, so we’ll ’ave t’see how things go with t’night’s offering – can’t wait!
 
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Bobowler
The only thing is about Lanchesters is that 1915 & 1916 the Russian government were allies . In the Blinders in the 1920s the armoured cars were supposedly being supplied to white Russians, who were fighting against the , then, communist government, so it would have been a somewhat different situation
 
Ta for the link to the pic of the blue plaque Ell, that’s an interesting site y’found, well worth a good ol’ mooch. I thought Lanchesters rang a bell – so they were the ones who made the first ‘motor car’ in England. I think I read about that when I was young, mind that’s going back a few years now!

Ar I take yer point Mike, what I meant about an historic precedent was that Lanchester armoured cars had been previously shipped out there, either as part of their sale to the Imperial Russian Government or with the RNAS force, so the story in Peaky Blinders would fit with certain establishment figures in England wanting to carry on their support of the White Russians by sending out more, even though the government there was by then communist – if fact because it was!

Anyroad, thought it was powerful stuff last night, and am now keen t’see if Tommy’s plan comes together and if the Russkies get their armoured cars or not!!
 
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’Ow do Maria, ar that’s a new one on me an’ all! As far as I know ‘up the Swannee’ means summut’s gone wrong or is bost, so I think when Arthur says it to mean his wife’s pregnant this might ’ave been deliberate on the part of the writers? After all his character en’t the sharpest razer in the box! The phrases I know are ‘up the spout’ and ‘up the duff’; though apparently duff is/was a steamed pudding, so is similar to the saying ‘in the pudding club’.

By the way, did anyone clock it when Aunt Polly said about Sabini and Solomons, and how “it won’t be long before they come trotting up the A1 like wolves” – the only thing is if this was s’posed to refer to them coming up to Brummagem from London then it’s the wrong road, because, as far as I know, the A1 actually goes up through the East Midlands! If I’m right the old A-road that came up to Brum from the Capital was the A41!!
 
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Yes, perhaps Arthur got it wrong - but they all seemed to understand him! By the way, the Arthur residence (or do they have a wing of Tommy's mansion?) has a very posh shower, did any one notice?

We noticed the A1 thing as well.

maria
 
Ar y’re right Maria, the others did get what he meant when he said about his wife Linda being ‘up the Swannee’, though he did also say he was going to be a dad, which kind of made it obvious! Like I said, ’ten’t a phrase I’ve heard meself, well not to mean pregnant anyroad, maybe we need to ask Steven Knight?

Y’re right an’ all about that shower, certainly plenty of room!! I have t’say I think Arthur had the best line this week, during that tense scene with Tommy, Vicente Changretta and the box of razers, at the end of which when he said “I ’eard the blackbird sing”!

Anyroad, another apparent slip-up from the last episode seems to be when John asks Polly if “swearing in Gypsy counts?”, an’ she replies “There’s no reason for us to be speaking Rocka or Shelta in any case”.

Now I dun’no that much about Romani, but my understanding is y’dun’t ‘speak Rocka’ you would ‘rokker Romanes’. ‘Rocka’, or rather ‘rokker’, is the Romani word for ‘to speak’ or ‘to talk’, instead of meaning the language itself. I believe Romanes is the word that is used for the Romani Language, mind this literally means Romani-like. Another word which can also be used is ‘chib’, or ‘jib’, though this is actually the Romani word for ‘tongue’.

I en’t sure that ‘Shelta’ is right either – this is the name of the cryptolect of Irish Travellers, or Pavees, rather than Romani Gypsies, but I thought they tended to call their language the ‘Gammon’ or the ‘Cant’ themselves, and that ‘Shelta’ was more what linguists termed it? Anyhow, if the Shelbys are s’posed to be part-Romani, where does them knowing the speech of Irish Travellers fit into things??
 
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I couldn't make out what words she was saying, but that explains it, Bobowler, thanks. I think that some Romani language feeds into Polari, and 'rokker Romanes' sounds quite Polari-ish! Actually, I've heard 'cant' somewhere as well. Do you think that some research regarding the language went a bit haywire?

I've seen a shower like Arthur's in stately homes!!

maria
 
[! Actually, I've heard 'cant' somewhere as well. Do you think that some research regarding the language went a bit haywire?

Hi All,
I do not watch this program so much of the thread is double dutch to me. However, the word cant is slang for gossip' Such as they are having a cant or they are canting.

Old Boy
 
I know the phrase "up the swanee" as broken or in trouble someway. I think it might have come from the Stephen Foster minstrel song "The Old Folks at Home" which is also the State Song of Florida.

Way down upon de Swanee Ribber,
Far, far away,
Dere's wha my heart is turning ebber,
Dere's wha de old folks stay.
 
Ar spot on Maria about there being a Romani element in Polari, though from what I’ve gleaned it’s only a small part of that lexicon. Seems what Romani there is came through the older Parlyaree, which was used in fairgrounds an’ circuses, and which, eventually, made its way into musical halls an’ theatres, from whence it transferred to the Gay community, expanding and developing into Polari.

Parlyaree actually contains many other elements, drawn from things like the language of Italian street entertainers, which is a substantial part, and something known as Thieves’ Cant, which has nunk t’do with the Gammon/Cant of Irish Travellers, but which arose in Elizabethan England as an argot of beggars an’ vagabonds. ‘Rokker’ is certainly found in fairground Parlyaree, though I dun’t think it made it into Polari.

Ar I fancy someone got mixed up over ‘Rocka’, but by all accounts this en’t the first time the Programme’s slipped up with its Romani! There’s the scene when Tommy goes to see Mary Lee, the Gypsy Queen, about his brother John marrying Esme, where they were s’posed to be talking Romani but were actually speaking Romanian!!

On the bit about Shelta, Aunt Polly’s character is apparently half-Romanichal an’ half-Irish, so p’r’aps the Irish half is actually Irish Traveller? In which case maybe she’s s’posed to have growed up knowing both a bit of Romanes an’ some of the Gammon? When Scottish actor Tommy Flanagan played Arthur Shelby Senior, Polly’s brother, he certainly did him with a distinctively Irish accent (I think it was meant to be Dublin), though I dun’t believe it’s yet been made clear exactly how the Irish side comes into things.

Anyroad, whatever Steven Knight has thought up about the Shelby’s background, hopefully all will be revealed as the Series continues ... !
 
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’Ow do Old Boy, ar y’re quite right about ‘cant’ and ‘canting’ meaning gossip and gossiping, in phrases like “they were ’avin’ a right old cant”, or even just to mean talking or speaking, and, as such, is a proper old Brummie word an’ all. Indeed, a common sight on the streets of Brummagem in days gone by would ’ave been all those old gals standing outside their front doors canting with their neighbours!

Anyroad, according to the Oxford English Dictionary it actually comes from the Norman-French word canter, which itself is ultimately from Latin cantāre, meaning to sing. Early on it looks like it was applied to the singsong speech of beggars, and then, in turn, employed as a slang term for speaking/talking in a more general sense. The word was also transferred to mean a certain kind of jargon or slang, and it’s this latter meaning of ‘Cant’, as a particular kind of speech, which is what you get in the term Thieves’ Cant. The ‘Cant’ (Gammon) of Irish Travellers, however, may well be derived from the Irish word cainnt, meaning ‘language’. Hope that’s cleared things up for ya mucker, though I’m afraid it might all seem like yet more double Dutch!!

As to ‘up the Swannee’, ar that’s what I said David, about it meaning summut’s gone wrong or is bost/broken. Y’might well be on t’summut with the song about the Swanee River mind, after all things can also ‘go down the Swannee’, meaning it’s gone down the drain or is ruined. By the way, I den’t know that song was the State Song of Florida – well y’live an’ learn, dun’t ya?

Lastly, cheers for the link to the Birmingham Mail article Mike, about John Loveridge and his Black Patch Romani family – looks like an interesting claim linking them to some real Peaky Blinders. Like y’say, shame the snap en’t clearer, nor the writing underneath, mind looks like it’s out of a book to me!?
 
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Did anyone spot the similarities of Tommy's mansion with Aston Hall. It obviously wasn't the Hall but does anyone know which hall it was supposed to be? It has the tell-tale Dutch gables as did so many around the area, including large pubs. Viv
 
’Ow do Viv, ar it does look like Aston Hall a little dun’ it, though on a smaller scale.

When it switched from the church to the Hall, at the beginning of the first episode in this Series, it was captioned as “Arrow Hall, Warwickshire”. Seems this is purely fictional, but presumably is s’posed t’be near the real village of Arrow, just outside Alcester.

The actual hall where things were filmed is Arley Hall in Cheshire, which was built in the nineteenth century but in a Jacobean style, so mimicking the design of buildings just like Aston Hall – hope this answers yer query? Maybe Maria’s fancy shower is at Arley Hall? Anyroad, time for me to flutter up the wooden hill!
 
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I wonder where the mansion is supposed to be? Hampton-in-Arden? Catherine de Barnes? But at that time you probably wouldn't have to go too far out of the centre to be almost in the country.
 
There’s a Birmingham Mail article from 5 May here which has “The manor is actually Arley House in Cheshire but is meant to be between Birmingham and Warwick, on the River Arrow as it’s named Arrow House on TV.” But then it has Steven Knight saying “It’s probably near where Chelmsley Wood council estate is now”, which would put it nearer to Coleshill, rather than Hampton-in-Arden or Catherine-de-Barnes. Though none of these places seem to be near the River Arrow which is also mentioned, as, according to this, that flows from the Lickey Hills south-east towards Redditch.
 
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Welcome to the Forum Glarney. The programme seems to regularly combine fact and fiction, so Coleshill sounds very possible. Thanks for the info. Enjoy the Forum. Viv.
 
’Ow do one an’ all. Ar that’s what I was saying about it s’posedly being near Arrow, out by Alcester, which would be where the river Arrow is. Mind, if Steven Knight thought it should ’ave been out Coleshill way, then somebody’s geography’s a bit out! Maybe there’s another river or stream called the Arrow, otherwise it looks like they might ’ave gone an’ made another cock-up in the research then!?
 
Interesting interview with Steven Knight on the Historia site here, where it talks about him saying in the past how “the final episode will end with the first air raid siren of WW2”, so seems like there’s still a way to go yet.
 
I hadn't heard of Historia magazine, which looks really interesting.

Tommy had a possible fractured skull (that was the crack we heard during the attack!?) and something else?

maria
 
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