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Panorama – the first Rotunda

Even with Shera's help I haven't been able to isolate a marriage for John Henry Parker in the many at St Martin's (or associated children's baptisms) although there are a few recorded at St Philips and Aston Juxta also during the likely period. Could be a toughie...:explode:
 
leslam said:
Just looked at the first picture again. You can see Ann Street behind the church - the castellations on the building on the corner tie it in nicely :)
Click to expand...

Have you noticed that there is a hint of a hoist-like structure on the building next to the castellated structure between but just below the windows on the first floor??? Could easily be the manufactory...
 
If you look to the left of Allins (castelated structure) you will see the houses that existed before the Town Hall was built in that spot. The drawing in Landscape before the Town Hall shows the same buildings on the west side of Congreve St. https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=30391&p=302813#post302813

The drawing shown on this thread seems to indicate that older buildings were demolished to build Christ Church. Parts of the older structures appear to be in a state of decay around the base of the church.
 
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Good points Rupert - as you memorably said these old drawings were the photos of their day and capture all kinds of detail, some of which takes some understanding
 
Thanks Astonite - lovely tokens showing the skill of the Die Maker/Sinker's art. I think "Panorama Grand Exhibition" is meant to mean a great sight to behold of many different things (but am happy to be corrected)

I attach another view of Allins (watercolour of Paul Braddon), advertising Wax Works for 2D and Laughing Fish amongst other things, and text from Chris Upton's "A History of Birmingham" who also notes that the last tenant were the Suffield family, ancestors of J.R.R.Tolkien:

"...the art gallery and museum had its predecessors in the collections of curiosities and displays of art of an earlier age. James Bisset, famous as the author of a verse guidebook to Birmingham [does anyone know of a copy please?), had a "Museum or Bazaar" on New Street, visited by Nelson in 1802. A similar institution at the end of the 18th Century was Allin's "Cabinet of Curiosities" on the site now occupied by the Council House. Allin sold new and second-hand clothes and shoes, but also advertised "An Exhibition for the Curious Observer of Natural Phenomena", no doubt as a lure for potential customers. In 1805 he too advertised in verse:

But friends from the country, who hate for to travel,
O'er sharp-pointed stones, and to save tender feet,
I've opened a Ware house, by fancy well stor'd,
Near Dunn's famous Swann, at the end of New Street.

Charles Jones "Pantechnetheca", or Grand Repository of Art, in New Street (1823) allowed different manufacturers to exhibit their wares and customers to buy them if the wished.

Individual paintings on the grand scale, usually depicting recent historical events, were also on display. An exhibition at the Theatre Royal in 1807 involved an animated portrayal of the Battle of Copenhagen with sound effects, while a huge depiction of the Storming of the Seripatam{*} was exhibited in Union Street in 1790. A building called the Panorama at the top of New Street specialised in large circular paintings, viewed from a platform in the centre. The line between art and commercialism was a blurred one: in 1749 the Black Boy public House in Edgbaston Street exhibited a model of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi, together with other classical representations. But the fact that the proprietor threw in a magician doing card-tricks seems to undermine the educational nature of the Experience!..."

{*} advertised as "reopening" in the Panorama in 1810

The painting attached and that shown by Rupert on the other thread has some differences/licenses but both show a pub next door (don't know if that is the Swann as per the verse - looks like a squirrel to me) but I think that means that it is a pub sign shown in the Panorama drawing not a hoist - we had already surmised that the view from the manufactory was likely to be a second floor garret (shown in two of the three drawings) anyway.
 
The going "Retaile" rate appears to have been a shilling for an "intellectual" entertainment or one that could be savoured for some time, 1D/2D for a shuftie or a sideshow
 
Just enlarging again on this general area...it seems to me that there was a decent size building on the church plot before the church was built; going by the seeming remains at it's base. One wonders if those arches were maintained as part of the smaller premisses at the base of the church on the New St. corner. Strange to have an oyster parlour just there and I wonder if we are looking at the remains of an earlier building.

The photo has been on here before but I have included it for quick refference. All long gone now of course but it adds to our knowledge.
 
That's an intriguing find Rupert. You can see the crumbling side walls on the painting, perhaps the remains were so thick they were left or maybe it was some sort of leasing condition - I can't imagine the church leaders being too happy about oyster bars beneath their grounds!
 
The oyster bar was no 79 New St. in 1845 no 79 was James Crump, Cooper. He was also there in 1841 , but on searching the 1839 directory no 79 doesn’t seem to be listed.
 
Hansons map dated 1778 (which I need to compress) shows nothing there but trees so either a) map is wrong (do we have another late C18th map?) or b) perhaps these where a design feature like a crypt of Christ Church that was subsequently rented out and we see them partially constructed? I'd like to see a) before we entertain b) or other options....
 
Mikejee - believe you have the full colour 1778 Map, would you mind sharing it for the Paradise St/New St area?
 
Is this what you want?
mike

centre_1778.jpg
 
Cool - cheers Mike - now what we need is another map of around the same time to corroborate.....
 
I don't know about the same time , but this map of 1731 seems to show buildings around there, though it is difficult with the roads changing. I have twisted map round to make it roughly comparable

new_st_1731A.jpg
 
'Below' the church were catacombs and Baskerville was in there for a while but later moved again. Perhaps what was the outer wall of an older building and the space behind became all or part of the catacomb structure. There is a fairly steep bit of hill below the church so that this could be considered to be below.
When we see the latter photo's of the church with the oyster bar in situe; the church seems to be in a state of dis-repair and was about to be demolished in 1899 so that the catacombs would have been cleared out, maybe way before and may have become the oyster bar. One photo has a poster indicating what the site was to become I think. It may not have functioned as a church at that point.
Fairly typically they ran out of funds before the church was completed so perhaps an ecconomy was to make use of existing structure. or maybe that was always part of the plan. So that perhaps the catacombs were below and to the side. Anyone for a plate of oysters.
I suppose that when we think of catacombs we visualise an extensive construction but they can be modest too and must have been in this instance.
Poor old Baskerville travelled about quite a bit after he died.
 
I don't know how much space that number would take up. You can measure how much area that there is on GE. Doubt that the space would have gone under the road. Must have been enough if that number is correct.
 
leslam said:
As far as I know it's not available on-line. But it is held on microfilm in Central Library. The earliest I can go is next Thursday (29th). If you get together a list of refs, I'll do them 29th or 30th if you like?
Click to expand...

Les - Kind of you to offer and sorry for the late reply but there were many more than I bargained for. I have marked those that may be of particular interest but anything gratefully received. All Aris unless marked otherwise:


1804/03/19 p3 "View of Ramsgate" (Barker's) first advert *
1804/06/04 p1 "View of Ramsgate" (Barker's) last advert

1805/03/11 p3 "View of Paris from the Seine" (Barker's) first advert
1805/03/25 p1 "View of Paris from the Seine" (Barker's) last advert

1806/03/10 p3 "View of Constantinople" (Barker's) first advert
1806/10/20 p3 "View of Constantinople" (Barker's) last advert

1807/03/16 p4 "View of Edinburgh" (Barker's) first advert
1807/03/16 p4 Last mention of Barker's Panorama *
1807/03/23 p1 "View of Edinburgh" (Barker's) last advert

1808/02/01 p3 Panorama by David Cox shown in Theatre Royal *
1808/04/11 p3 Explanation? *

1809/09/23 p3 "Flotilla at Boulogne" (Serries') first advert
1809/10/16 p3 not romantic fantasy
1809/11/13 p3 Better than some of the "pitiful daubs now showing" *
1809/11/13 p1 sketched from nature
1809/12/25 p3 "Flotilla at Boulogne" (Serries') last advert

1810/06/11 p3 "Seringapatam [Mysore Wars]" (Porter's) first advert
1810/06/11 p3 Parker shows Serries Boulogne *
1810/06/18 p3 "Seige of Seringapatam" Reopens *
1810/06/21 p3 Swinney's Birmingham Chronicle - Seringapatam
1810/10/01 p3 "Seringapatam [Mysore Wars]" (Porter's) last advert

1811 ?

1812/02/24 p3 "View of Paris from Notre Dame" (De Maria's) first advert
1812/06/01 p3 "View of Paris from Notre Dame" (De Maria's) last advert
1812/07/06 p3 "City & Bay of Cadiz" (Barker's) first advert
1812/09/21 p3 Audience participation? *
1812/10/26 p3 "City & Bay of Cadiz" (Barker's) last advert

1813/02/01 p3 "Ancient & Modern Rome" (Reinagle's) first advert
1813/06/21 p3 "Ancient & Modern Rome" (Reinagle's) last advert
1813/07/19 p3 "Seige of Flushing" (Barker's) first advert
1813/07/29 p3 Swinney's Birmingham Chronicle - Flushing
1813/11/01 p3 "Seige of Flushing" (Barker's) last advert + Naration offered *

1814/03/21 p3 "Burning of Moscow" (Barker's & Porter's) first advert
1814/03/28 p3 Plea by the Panorama for support *
1814/12/05 p3 reopens at night to show "Burning of Moscow" by Candlelight *
1814/12/26 p3 "Burning of Moscow" (Barker's & Porter's) last advert

1815/01/09 p3 "View of Glasgow" (John Knox's) first advert
1815/03/13 p3 "View of Glasgow" (John Knox's) last advert

1816/09/16 p2 Baskerville Place panorama blows down *
1816/11/11 p3 "Algiers" (William Turner) first advert
1816/11/25 p3 About Parker? *

1817/03/03 p3 "Algiers" (William Turner) last advert + Narration offered *
1817/04/14 p3 "Battle of Waterloo" (William Turner) first advert
1817/06/16 p3 "Battle of Waterloo" (William Turner) last advert
1817/07/17 p3 "Siege of Flushing" (Barker's) first advert
1817/07/21 p3 appeal to artists and youths fond of the pencil *
1817/08/11 p3 "Siege of Flushing" (Barker's) last advert
1817/08/18 p3 "Battle of Waterloo" (Barker's) first advert
1817/09/29 p3 "Battle of Waterloo" (Barker's) last advert *

1818/08/01 p2 Robins Brothers take over the Panorama for Auction House *
 
Thanks Aiden, I'll see what I can do, either tomorrow or next week. I have to go to the library anyway to look up some entries in the Admons registers.
 
Thanks Les - of course the request for help is open to anyone going to the Central Library with a bit of time to look at Aris's Gazette...

Each of the panoramas would have been accompanied by a guide of some description - https://bibliodyssey.blogspot.com/2008_11_02_archive.html shows some examples from the London ones, many of which must have been reproduced for their Birmingham showing
 
Aidan
The last item on your list made me have a quick shufti. Found:
1815 Robins Josiah, surveyor, Office 26, New-street
Robins Ebenezer, land surveyor, New-street
Robins and Terry, estate and furniture auctioneers and appraisers, New-street
1818 Robins Josiah and Cornelius, appraisers, auctioneers, &c.; New-street
Robins Josiah, surveyor, New-street
1823 Robins Josiah, Ebenezer, and Cornelius, land surveyors, auctioneers,
appraisers, &c. 32, New-street
1829-47 Robins E. and C. auctioneers, appraisers,and surveyors, 47 New-st.
Certainly renumbering did not take place after 1829. The RSA was no 69. So there is no evidence that Robins occupied the building 1829 and after, but 1818 it is a possibility as no number is given
Mike
 
Mike - Thanks. This is where we need some evidence. We know the Soc of Artists took it over in around 1822. Whether the Robins moved into the Panorama completely or just as an extension to their main office I do not know and maybe the Aris article may make clearer. But did they hold it to 1822, did they actually use it? Was the street renumbered?

Lots of questions with all above.

Was there more than one show every year or is it just the latter years when they got desperate? what happened in 1811? Still need details on the owners....

The link I have put on the ref to Baskerville Place is on the archaeology which suggests it wasn't developed until the 1820's - so what is a ramshackle Panorama doing there and what else in the vicinity?
 
visited the site yesterday where I thought the Rotunda stood, and snaped a few photos for any evidance. None to mention, although the layouts on that corner have changed a lot over the last 200 years.
 
Bob - that was really kind of you, thanks.

I know Rupert will love that one of the stairs as much as I do. I think by the look of it you were snapping around Waterloo Street? My theory is that it was between what is now Waterloo St & New St with entrance on the latter, about where the green arrow is on this map https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=52...2.479778,-1.902496&spn=0.001572,0.003937&z=18 one or two doors to the left of the bottom of the stairs

Your 1st & 3rd photos shows a lovely building on Waterloo St/Colmore Row/Victoria Square - any idea what it originally was?
 
To the right of this photo then Aidan, behind the trees and Chamberlain Passage? It must have been on a slop between the two Streets? Was Christ Church on that corner in front of the passage which is now part of Victoria Square? I don't know what the building on the left was built for. The Crest says it was built 1824 and shows a castle motif.
 
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