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W
Wendy
Guest
Not at all I have the book which is out of copyright so it's fine.
P
phillcotterill
Guest
is this the pub that was a cider house when i was a young lad drinking ?
Phil
Gone, but not forgotten.
P
phillcotterill
Guest
Thanks For The Memorys
When I Was A Little Whipper Snapper We Went There Afew Nights
A Week And Got Sloshed A Half Penny For The Rough And A Penny For The Good Sweet Stuff And Believe Me There Was,nt Many
Walking Straight Out Of That Entry Back To The Car When They Drank A Pint Of The Old Scrumpy , I Can Tell You That , And
Directly Across The Road From That Scrumpy House Facing It
Was An Old Pub Called The Bowling Green Where All The Cliental
Was Crims And Old Jail Birds They Used To Play The Old Joe Anna Very Loud None Stop And The Singing Of All The Good Old Songs
But Soon As A Bloke Walked In Wearing A Suit In The Front Door The Piana Would Stop Playing They Would Automaticaly
Presume It Was The Old Bill Once Established He Was Not The Old Piano Would Start Again And Believe Me There Was Some Characters In There They Should Have Built The Sack Of Potoes
Years Beor They Did It Would Have Survided Longer
When I Was A Little Whipper Snapper We Went There Afew Nights
A Week And Got Sloshed A Half Penny For The Rough And A Penny For The Good Sweet Stuff And Believe Me There Was,nt Many
Walking Straight Out Of That Entry Back To The Car When They Drank A Pint Of The Old Scrumpy , I Can Tell You That , And
Directly Across The Road From That Scrumpy House Facing It
Was An Old Pub Called The Bowling Green Where All The Cliental
Was Crims And Old Jail Birds They Used To Play The Old Joe Anna Very Loud None Stop And The Singing Of All The Good Old Songs
But Soon As A Bloke Walked In Wearing A Suit In The Front Door The Piana Would Stop Playing They Would Automaticaly
Presume It Was The Old Bill Once Established He Was Not The Old Piano Would Start Again And Believe Me There Was Some Characters In There They Should Have Built The Sack Of Potoes
Years Beor They Did It Would Have Survided Longer
I have looked at the 1778 map, which shows the mill and some roads. I have shown on the 1889 map, where I think the mill was in blue, and also the dog & duck , in red. I am not sure if the dog & Duck was then the same building as in the picture, but it was there in 1889 as a pub.
Aidan
master brummie
Thanks Mike & Rupert - certainly looks likely and the pic I posted seems to be on the incline. Putting your map work, the pics and modern streetview together looks right I think: https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=52...sZTZxheLjmAlvFMaZGzKAg&cbp=12,200.56,,0,-1.74 with some sort of chimney standing in for the Windmill today
I had thought that Exeter Passage ran around the windmill at one time but I can see that your blue dot is more likely to be the place but perhaps half way betweenn Florence and Ernest. This means that the Dog And Duck would have been at the junction of Exeter and Holloway Head. Looks about right. By the way the bottom part of Holloway head that joins up with the Horsfair used to be called Exeter Row. I think this was pointed out before and The Horsfair was Brick Kiln Lane. The old map shows the outline of The Old Inn pretty fairly I think and also the adjacent buildings but the 1890 survey shows a different building in the same location. I will have to move my pin on Google. If you can't find the outstanding old photo's, let me know and I will post them.
I have wondered where the drawing Wendy's Post #1 was viewed from and think that it must have been from Ernest and shows the lane (other side of the pailings) that ran between Ernest and Florence with the mill on the other side of it.
The dawing of the pub exagerates the size a bit and the actual building was much smaller.
I have wondered where the drawing Wendy's Post #1 was viewed from and think that it must have been from Ernest and shows the lane (other side of the pailings) that ran between Ernest and Florence with the mill on the other side of it.
The dawing of the pub exagerates the size a bit and the actual building was much smaller.
HI PHIL
Many thanks with your picture ;such memoreis ; that is the real old age scrumpy house
where we use to go and that is the orinional scrumpy house
where the i penny bought you half of sweet or the half penny got yu the dog rough glass swallowing cider
those wrethe days my friend we thought would never end
phil do you remember he old bowling green pub across the rd facing it ;?.
have a nice day friends best wishes astonian ;;;
Many thanks with your picture ;such memoreis ; that is the real old age scrumpy house
where we use to go and that is the orinional scrumpy house
where the i penny bought you half of sweet or the half penny got yu the dog rough glass swallowing cider
those wrethe days my friend we thought would never end
phil do you remember he old bowling green pub across the rd facing it ;?.
have a nice day friends best wishes astonian ;;;
Aidan
master brummie
Rupert if there is any other photo or sketch of either building I'd love to see them (have tried search but can't see any obvious other thread)
Aidan
master brummie
I can't believe it myself, but in looking for something else I came across this pictorial map of 1847. Strange that neither this view or Wendy's sketch show it with its sails on - perhaps it was disused or converted to other uses by this time. Makes me think that the sketch I posted above is maybe C17th as shown in Mike's map and hence the Dog & Duck may be a different shape at that time (then fallen down/rebuilt with same name later)
Aidan
master brummie
I agree Lyn, it would be interesting to know. One would assume flour from the surrounding farms but I know many of the water mills in Birmingham were converted to iron foundries and the like though of course they had more of a continuous supply of power
think you are probably about right aidan...i know ive got pics of the dog and duck but its the one that was on newtown row...but im sure i have seen pics of this one... could be in one of the many old brum newpapers i have and to go through them all again would take me an age...
lyn
lyn
In 1818, according to Wrightson’s directory, there was a miller called Hopkins in Holloway Head. He is not mentioned in 1818 or 1823, though in 1818 there is a William Hopkins, corn and cheese factor not far away in Suffolk St, and possibly the mill is where the corn was ground
Mike
Mike
Phil
Gone, but not forgotten.
You can find plenty of photos and descriptions of the both the Inn and the Mill here.
https://www.search.digital-ladywood.org.uk/engine/search/default_hndlr.asp?txtKeywords=windmills
Phil
https://www.search.digital-ladywood.org.uk/engine/search/default_hndlr.asp?txtKeywords=windmills
Phil
OK. I will have a shot but in order to locate the views there will be additional data added as I get to it. All of these views have been posted by others in the past.
Picture #1. Shows the Dog And Duck on the corner of Exeter and Holloway Head. The windmill seems to have gone from behind it So dating can be approximated.
Picture #2. Shows the grouping looking down the road and The Dog is right at the left hand end as the road meets the end of the picture. I think that these shots are contemporary with maybe #2 being a bit later judging by the tree which appears to be on both.
Picture #3. Is possibly the old map that Mike refers to and this grouping of buildings can be seen on the corner of what was or became Exeter (the street) not Row the kind of funnel affair I think.
Picture #4 Is a great shot also with a super view of the remains then, of the windmill in the background and boys playing on the mound...wonderfull. It would have been taken from Holloway Head I think further up...perhaps west of Florence. The building is not to be confused with Wendy's sketch Post #1. which I believe is taken from the lane between Ernest and Florence as stated before. Maybe only the old Map dates back to the days of Windmill usage.
Picture #5 Is a shot of Little Bow Street looking up to Bow Street...the other side of the bollards. This photo would have been taken from The Horsefair and looks up the hill. The windmill long gone by now, but if it was not it would be able to be seen beyond the buildings in the distance which would not have been there at the time. Only Bow Street itself would have been there perhaps with other constructions around it. I think it was Little Bow Street.
Use these pictures and map in conjunction with the 1890 survey to interpolate an understanding. There are a couple of related later shots if required.
Picture #1. Shows the Dog And Duck on the corner of Exeter and Holloway Head. The windmill seems to have gone from behind it So dating can be approximated.
Picture #2. Shows the grouping looking down the road and The Dog is right at the left hand end as the road meets the end of the picture. I think that these shots are contemporary with maybe #2 being a bit later judging by the tree which appears to be on both.
Picture #3. Is possibly the old map that Mike refers to and this grouping of buildings can be seen on the corner of what was or became Exeter (the street) not Row the kind of funnel affair I think.
Picture #4 Is a great shot also with a super view of the remains then, of the windmill in the background and boys playing on the mound...wonderfull. It would have been taken from Holloway Head I think further up...perhaps west of Florence. The building is not to be confused with Wendy's sketch Post #1. which I believe is taken from the lane between Ernest and Florence as stated before. Maybe only the old Map dates back to the days of Windmill usage.
Picture #5 Is a shot of Little Bow Street looking up to Bow Street...the other side of the bollards. This photo would have been taken from The Horsefair and looks up the hill. The windmill long gone by now, but if it was not it would be able to be seen beyond the buildings in the distance which would not have been there at the time. Only Bow Street itself would have been there perhaps with other constructions around it. I think it was Little Bow Street.
Use these pictures and map in conjunction with the 1890 survey to interpolate an understanding. There are a couple of related later shots if required.
Attachments
It's difficult to know how to consider the sketch post #19. Maybe it was a futuristic rendition of what might be from way back. It does not look anything like the old photo's which are later than 1847. I don't think the windmill was being used for any of these times except for the time of the old map perhaps. Datings given are not always accurate. The following ref also belongs here. If you look at the far left of the picture you can see the windmill in it's glory just above the Theater Royal in New Street. Its dated 1821 and view from St Phillips dome.
https://www.bmagic.org.uk/objects/1893P72/images/139025
https://www.bmagic.org.uk/objects/1893P72/images/139025
Aidan
master brummie
Thanks Rupert for the great photos and I particularly love the painting - thanks for sharing it - I am just beginning some research on other buildings in that area so you may see that link again!
Thanks also to Phil for the useful link out to other Photos and Info (some of which seems to be conflicting but I need to do some careful reading)
Thanks also to Phil for the useful link out to other Photos and Info (some of which seems to be conflicting but I need to do some careful reading)
I put on a similar (but different ) view from the east on post 8 of https://forum.birminghamhistory.co.uk/showthread.php?t=28723 . Here the windmill is listed as Mr Coopers windmill, and the house to the right as Mr Coopers House & watermill. That one was dated 1753 when Chapman would have had the Holloway Head mill. As the panorama is from the east, I don't think Chapman's mill would be visible
Mike
Mike
