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New John St West Calthorpe Arms

  • Thread starter Thread starter maxwell bullivant
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maxwell bullivant

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Hoping for any information regarding the Calthorpe arms which was at 246 New John Street West.
I recently bought a money token used at this pub.Max
 
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Re: Bridge St West Calthorpe Arms

Thanks Amanda , Senior moment for me. i am now trying to change the thread title, Bless you for noticing ( ill go and have a lie down ) Lol Max
 
Re: Bridge St West Calthorpe Arms

i have imd you max re changing thread title...i like the token very much...looks like another pic search coming on as i have not heard of a calthorpe arms in NJSW...if moss sees this thread he may know of it...

cheers

lyn
 
Re: Bridge St West Calthorpe Arms

In the Public House Checks of Birmingham and Smethwick by RNP Hawkins published in 1978 by Birmingham Museums and Art Gallery, there is a mention of the Calthorpe Arms, as follows

Calthorpe Arms, 246 New John Street West the propreitor was William Smith, he made the token? Mr Hewins also used the tokens they should have a copy at the library I would think thee are 80 pages listing many of the pubs in brum that used the tokens it also has a seperate index for the publicans, the ISBN number is 0 7093 0033 6 I must read it properly one of these days
 
Re: Bridge St West Calthorpe Arms

Can't find any mention of (this) Calthorpe Arms in directories, or any mentionn of a pub at 246 new john St west. It is probably pre 1840.
~Mike
 
Re: Bridge St West Calthorpe Arms

max..it looks like you may have a very old token there...

hi mike....if you cant find it does that mean it may have been demolished pre 1840...wonder what number 246 was in later years and which end of NJSW it was...

lyn
 
Re: Bridge St West Calthorpe Arms

Hi Mike

Didn't we look for a Calthorpe Arms before in Clevedon Rd Balsall Heath and have the same problem. The only one we could find was in Wellington Rd Handsworth.

Phil
 
Re: Bridge St West Calthorpe Arms

Sorry to everyone, i stupidly put the Street name wrong , moderators are in the process of correcting my error. once again sorry . Max

Mikejee, in the 1903 Kellys ( the only one i have ) its listed as beer seller.
 
Re: Bridge St West Calthorpe Arms

I think i must have been worrying about who i was going to vote for when i started the thread LOL Max
 
Re: Bridge St West Calthorpe Arms

the one in wellington road is still there...

hi mike...do you think you could post us a map of NJSW please showing where number 246 would have been...im just curious...

many thanks...

lyn
 
Re: Bridge St West Calthorpe Arms

Bammot said:
In the Public House Checks of Birmingham and Smethwick by RNP Hawkins published in 1978 by Birmingham Museums and Art Gallery, there is a mention of the Calthorpe Arms, as follows

Calthorpe Arms, 246 New John Street West the propreitor was William Smith, he made the token? Mr Hewins also used the tokens they should have a copy at the library I would think thee are 80 pages listing many of the pubs in brum that used the tokens it also has a seperate index for the publicans, the ISBN number is 0 7093 0033 6 I must read it properly one of these days
Click to expand...
What a font of knowledge/and knowledgeable people on this wonderful forum, i have tried to reserve this book on-line, but it is a reference book, so unfortunately not for loan. So a trip to the library. Max
 
Max
You are quite right. I must have started on new john st west and then gone to new john st . Will try and sort the correct version tomorrow. Not mat my best today!! I will try and sort a map also
mike
 
Here is the list of occupants and the map. I must have been in La La land yesterday!!. The position on te map assumes that the building on the corner of Guest St is numbered in New John St West. Afraid I haven’t got much farther in identifying when William occupied pub.
1858 William Hinks, japanner . In 1855 and 1849 there is also no pub listed at this address or within a few numbers of it
1862 Mrs Martha Smith
1867 Edwin Baker
1868 William Smith Hewins
1872 George Frederick Drew
1873 Shadrach Matthews, beerhouse
1876 James Pemberton
1878-1879 Thomas Hanson
1880 Frederick Witton
1883 Tom Morrall, beer retailer & jeweller
1884 Thomas John Harris
1888 Thomas Mills
1890 John Payton
1892 Alfred Wilson
1895 Benjamin Wilks
1896-1899 Joseph Pinkston
1900 Thomas Rhead (this is what it says)
1903 Harry Nicholls
1904 John Masters
1905-1912 William Henry Tradewell
1913 Charles Crawford, draper

Big turnover of landlords. In the 1861 census Martha Smith (head, 66) beerhouse keeper is listed with her daughter Harriet. They are also listed in the 1851 census in Unett St, where she is listed as a widow, retired retailer of ales & beer. So she doesn’t seem to have anything to do with the coins if the book menttioning william smith is correct.
The 1871 entry for no 246 just lists a jeweller living there (Charles Luens(?)). No mention of pub.

Mike

no_246_new_john_st_west.jpg
 
Once again Mike you come up with the goods, fantastic. I have found out that the coins/tokens are known as Conder money, they were issued locally when the government of the day stopped issuing new coinage, and the ones in circulation were so worn that they could easily be forged and it was difficult to see the denomination. The coins were issued locally, and very quickly became popular.
Its also interesting that the 1st occupant 1858 William Hinks was a Jappaner a process i think invented in BRUM
 
Here are the first three pages from the Public House Checks of Birmingham and Smethwick bu B N P Hawkinsthe book covers the years 1830---1910 in Birmingham and Smethwick it covers Public Houses and Beer Shops
 
thanks mike for the brillient info and the map...we dont have enough pics of NJSW im afraid....its on my list for a search when i can get to the library...

lyn
 
Have found further ref. to the Calthorpe Arms, (. unfortunately only in snippet view in House of commons Sessional papers vol 96 p 90). Apparently there was a New Calthorpe Friendly Sick & Dividend society registered.

Mike

calthorpe_arms__ref_house_of_commons_papers.JPG
 
hi mike i did have a thought in me head at the beginning of this thread but now ive read your last post...(good bit of detective work) i am wondering if the calthorpe arms had any conection with the calthorpe family...i beleive they were and still are landowners in birmingham...and if memory serves me right they still own the land on which the tally ho club stands.. our maggie was stewardess of the club...

just a thought...

lyn
 
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Lots of wonderful information, my little coin is becoming more precious to me.
It would be the icing on the cake if a photograph could be found.

Ps being nosey Lyn ,who is our Maggie ?
 
This picture of old buildings in NJSW is from Kieth Berry. Max








The St Georges is a laundry
 
its maggieuk max...you have met her i beleive...ive got that pic of njsw...here is another shot of the building..its the st georges rectory

lyn
 
Astoness said:
its maggieuk max...you have met her i beleive...ive got that pic of njsw...here is another shot of the building..its the st georges rectory

lyn
Click to expand...

Nice one , on Kieth Berry s site he states that the building with the sign on was a laundry, makes sense now it is named after the religious building. And yes i know Maggie and the other half. Max
 
Lyn
I would think that it is very likely that the land on which it stood , at least originally, was owned by the Calthorpe family. There were two other Calthorpe Arms in brum, one in Bath Row, and the other, as Phil mentioned, in clevedon road, behind Calthorpe park. While finding the reference you refer to, found that there is also one in London where the first murder of a policeman was committed . it has a blue plaque . (I'm full of useful /useless information)
Mike
 
useless infomation mike.????? never....its fascinating and i now want to find out more...depending on when the njsw pub ceased to be i wonder if the calthorpe dynasty have pics of it in their archives...(if they have any) its a long shot but may be worth going into...

hi john and thanks for that sale notice..the calthorpes certainly owned a lot of land..wonder what the estate sold for....

the calthorpe estate archives are held at the central library so may be worth a look at....

lyn
 
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mikejee said:
Lyn
I would think that it is very likely that the land on which it stood , at least originally, was owned by the Calthorpe family. There were two other Calthorpe Arms in brum, one in Bath Row, and the other, as Phil mentioned, in clevedon road, behind Calthorpe park. While finding the reference you refer to, found that there is also one in London where the first murder of a policeman was committed . it has a blue plaque . (I'm full of useful /useless information)
Mike
Click to expand...
There's another Calthorpe Arms, at 135 Wellington Road, Handsworth. My g-grandfather was the first landlord, from some time in the 1890s until at least 1921. The pub is still there.
 
Hi Everyone, I did quite a lot of research and kept bumping into the Calthorpes, or Gough-Calthorpes. Strikes me that if they hadn't got it they married into it! One of my ancestors was fined for poaching (his property adjoined the Perry Hall Estate) and I found a wonderful hand drawn map showing the location of the fish he took).
 
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