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Music Hall Artiste - Rose Vernon

sospiri said:
Pedro,

A penworker in 1901 - long hours & poor pay - barely makes even a semi-professional career possible, and by then she was 28. My guess would be that her stage career would be more or less over by then. Marie Lloyd, for instance, was three years older than Rose and by 1920 (and she was a big star), her career was in decline. Most of these girls started in provincial theatres by the age of 15 or 16, and their careers had peaked by their mid-20s, so we should be concentrating on the 1890s decade. I'll have a wade though The Era this afternoon.

Maurice :cool:
Click to expand...

Maurice, I think you're right about her stage career being over by the turn of the century and my gut feeling is that she didn't travel too far away from the Midlands. That's an interesting piece of information that most of the girls started their careers aged 15 or 16. I'd appreciate your wading through The Era for me although I will be getting a month's subscription as you suggested. I'm not very good at spotting things so your help would be much appreciated.
 
Pedrocut said:
If we look at the 1901 census for James Broomhall. His wife is Lillian and staying with them is his wife’s sister Rose who is a pen maker. There appears to be what could be E after her name. (Elizabeth ?)

[Edit...Rose’s age is 28 which would give an 1873 birth]
Click to expand...

I'll have another look at this census Pedro - Rose's middle name is Elizabeth as you suggest.
 
Lady P,

I'll deal with the fresh news first and answer your other questions afterwards. I've trawled through all the entries in The Era between 1 January 1886 and 31 December 1901 and one of the problems was whether Rose Vernon and Rose Vernon-Paget were the same person. For a time I thought they could have been as your Rose was variously described as a vocalist/dancer and a serio/dancer whereas Rose Vernon-Paget seemed to do largely comedy drama. Both then on 12 June 1897 I found that your Rose was in variety at the Blackpool Empire whilst RVP was performing at the Comedy Theatre in London. This was finally born out when RVP left a contact address of 81 Antill Road, Bow, London. In 1901 she's a lodger at that address giving her real name at Sarah Paget, 40 year old widow, occupation artist, born in London. She was married for about three months in 1897 :)

But to get back to Rose Vernon, she first appears when she registers a letterbox (for people to contact her) at The Era c/o the Aldelphi Theatre in London. Performers who make use of this facility make a donation at the end of each year proportional to the amount of use. As she was one of those that donated ten shillings or less, I guess that she didn't make a great deal of use of it.

Her first published performance (dates are the issue of The Era) was in 1891 and here is the complete list from The Era:-

21 Feb 1891 Gaiety Theatre, Chatham - song & dance artist
14 Mar 1891 Royal York Pavilion - vocalist & dancer
21 Mar 1891 Barbard's Theatre, Woolwich
12 Dec 1891 New Alhanbra, Sandgate
9 Jan 1892 Corn Exchange, Derby
5 Apr 1892 Temple of Varieties, Hackney
16 Apr 1892 Sebright's Theatre, London - singer & dancer
25 Jun 1892 Paragon, Mile End Road
2 Jul 1892 Paragon, Mile End Road - Vesta Victoria headed the cast
9 Jul 1892 Paragon, Mile End Road - in a pantomime entitled "Sioux"
16 Jul 1892 Paragon, Mile End Road - a review of the performances in "Sioux"
23 Jul 1892 Paragon, Mile End Road - variety
4 Mar 1893 Grand Temperance Theatre, Manchester - variety
8 Apr 1893 Royal West Theatre, Marylebone - a show called "Maid of the Alps"
13 May 1893 Collin's Theatre, Islington Green - variety
29 Jul 1893 The Mogul, Drury Lane - variety
23 Sep 1893 The Royal Theatre, London - serio & dancer
29 Nov 1893 Royal Standard, Pimlico - billed as Rosie Vernon
21 Apr 1894 Kitty Fairdale of Bolton posts "Kind Regards to Rose Vernon"
---- 8 Dec 1894 The first recorded performance by Rose Vernon-Paget ----
3 Apr 1897 Royal Standard, Victoria, London - variety
12 Jun 1897 Empire Theatre, Blackpool - variety
9 Apr 1898 Paragon, Mile End Road - variety
16 Apr 1898 Paragon, Mile End Road - variety
4 Feb 1899 People's Palace, Bradford - variety doing a "serio turn"

And that's the sum total of her performances recored in The Era until the end of 1901. It has to be said that she is always towards the bottom of the bill, and of all the entries I looked at, Vesta Victoria was the only one on the same bill whose name I recognised. Most of her performances were in minor theatres in the London area so I must cast doubt on whether she ever knew Vesta Tilley or Marie Lloyd. The Stage tends to report on more well known performers, but I will try and have a look at that tomorrow. At no point did she ever post any "disengaged" notices or leave any contact addresses.

Maurice :cool:
 
Last edited:
Lady P,

Now to your other question - yes, I was referring to a year either side of 1910.

Just over a week before the date of the 1891 Census, she would have been in Woolwich, so may have missed that census altogether.

So a short career with a big gap between November 1893 and April 1897, and several smaller gaps too.

Maurice :cool:
 
Maurice, why do you think Rose Elton would take the stage name Rose Vernon when she would probably know of the more established Rose Vernon Paget ? Would it be an advantage ?
 
Well Maurice, I think you deserve a medal! What brilliant research and I really thank you. I wondered about the famous people she is said to have known but maybe she just met them. It would be easy to embroider the truth a little and much more exciting probably than actual fact. I shall have a look to see if I can find pictures of some of these theatres. I'm also sending you a PM.
 
Pedro,

Rose Vernon was already established in the theatre four and a half years before the appearance of Rose Vernon-Paget. Where the name Vernon came from I know not. David White had to join Equity, but as there was already a member of that name, he chose the stage name David Jason after looking across the road and seeing a poster for the film "Jason & the Argonauts". Alto saxophonist Paul Breitenfeld with the Dave Brubeck Quartet didn't like his grandfather's Austrian surname, so thumbed through the telephone book and chose the name Desmond. If Rose was a male impersonator, the male forename Vernon was a good choice, though it is possible it came from an ancestor.

Lady P,

As I suspected, there aren't many entries for your Rose in The Stage, but here they are with the date being the date of issue in each case:-

23 May 1890 Bedford Theatre, Camden Town
29 Mar 1894 Star Theatre, Dublin
8 April 1897 Royal Standard Theatre, Victoria, London
16 Sep 1897 Palace Theatre, Manchester

I've seached as far as 31 December 1910 and all the rest are of Rose Vernon-Paget. Sadly there aren't many theatre posters now available to search. The University of Kent has a small collection, but they are mainly of more famous professionals.

It's possible you may find one or two entries in provincial newspapers, but it is generally a more difficult search with lots of irrelevant dross to wade through.

Maurice :-)

Maurice :cool:
 
Lady Penelope said:
Well Maurice, I think you deserve a medal! What brilliant research and I really thank you. I wondered about the famous people she is said to have known but maybe she just met them. It would be easy to embroider the truth a little and much more exciting probably than actual fact. I shall have a look to see if I can find pictures of some of these theatres. I'm also sending you a PM.
Click to expand...

A list of London Music Halls past and present here http://www.arthurlloyd.co.uk/LondonTheatresAndMusicHallsIndex.htm

I checked out the Temple of Varieties as I live in Hackney and was interested to see where it was but the only theatre of that name on this list was in Hammersmith which does fit the dates.
 
Lady P,

Here's just four of those clipping. At least we now know when Rose met Kitty Fairdale :) Unfortunately, when you are towards the bottom of the bill, you don't get the same sort of mention as those at the top.

Maurice :cool:

Dublin 29 March 1894.jpg
The Era 21 April 1894.jpg

Royal Standard 8 April 1897.jpg

Palace Manchester 16 Sep 1897.jpg
 
One more for A.Sparks. Sorry, I left half the title out and this is probably the same theatre that I referred to as Sebrights on 16 April 1892. See if you have any better luck with this.

Maurice :cool:

The Era 9 April 1892.jpg
 
Regarding the Sebright Temple of VarietiesSee below (from https://pubwiki.co.uk/LondonPubs/BethnalGreen/Seabright.shtml )
Sebright, 26 Coate Street, Bethnal Green E2
Bethnal Green pub history index

Existed from at least 1823. The Sebright Arms, Hill street in 1849, 1859 & 1862. The Sebright / Seabright has had a variety of address, particularly Seabright Street in 1881 and Hills Street, Hackney Road ** The name is given sometimes as the Seabright Arms, as just the Seabright in 1882/1891, as the Belmont in the 1895 Directory, and the Sebright Music Hall in 1899 (it may have just functioned as a music hall at this time), before settling into the current spelling by 1910. The address changed to 31-35 Coate Street following rebuilding in 1936, which remains the modern address. The original site was on the other side of the street, diagonally opposite, on the west side of the intersection with Wolverley Street (later Gillman Street, and which no longer exists, but roughly continuing the line of Sebright Passage). *

As it states, the Seabright Arms was , for a time a Music Hall. Attached is a map c1895 which shows it as such (in red), before the place was demolished and moved over the road.

mp c1895 showing Sebright music hall.jpg
 
Another big thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread especially Maurice for all his work. I visited my friend at the weekend and she was thrilled with all the information. I've left her trawling through all her memorabilia to see what else she has as I'd like to find out more about Rose's family.

So far I've established that she was Rose Elizabeth Elton not the Elizabeth Rosa Elton mmn Gee. Also, I'm certain that she is not the Rose Jones mentioned before on this thread on the 1911 census. The lady on that census, although the right age and a widow, has been married too long (11 years not 4) and has no children. By this time Rose has two girls.

I'm still reading this thread regularly as it has so much information and thank you all again for your input. Really appreciated!
 
Lady P,

I've just turned my attention to Rose's two daughters, and these are the births I have found:-

Lily May ELTON no mmn born 3 Qtr 1903 Aston Vol 6d Page 400 - there is no other ELTON or JONES birth that matches in 1904, and
Phyllis JONES mmn ELTON born 3 Qtr 1908 Aston Vol 6d Page 317

So Charles accepted parenthood of Phyllis, but as there is no mmn for Lily, we can't be certain that Charles was the father.

Maurice :cool:
 
Rose's daughter Phyllis is listed as niece of James and Lillian Broomhall in 1911. Lilian Ellen Elton (father's name Joseph) married James Broomhall in 1893.

Lilian Ellen Elton was born 1870, daughter of Joseph Elton & Elizabeth Gee.

Unless there is a connection to James Broomhall then it seems likely that she was registered as Elizabeth Rosa, mmn Gee. My nan was registered as Sarah Ann and was always called Ann/Annie.
 
sospiri said:
Lady P,

I've just turned my attention to Rose's two daughters, and these are the births I have found:-

Lily May ELTON no mmn born 3 Qtr 1903 Aston Vol 6d Page 400 - there is no other ELTON or JONES birth that matches in 1904, and
Phyllis JONES mmn ELTON born 3 Qtr 1908 Aston Vol 6d Page 317

So Charles accepted parenthood of Phyllis, but as there is no mmn for Lily, we can't be certain that Charles was the father.

Maurice :cool:
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Thanks for that Sospiri. They are definitely right as they appear on the Eve of War census. Lily May - 16 August 1903 and Phyllis 18 July 1908. Discussions about the parenthood of Lily at the weekend covered a range of possibilities. I discovered that Phyllis showed a very keen interest in going on the stage but Rose would not let her and it may have been that she had a bad experience culminating in the birth of Lily. I think Rose would be pleased to know that her great-granddaughter appeared many times on the stage, in panto, at the Hippodrome. Genes will out!

MWS said:
Rose's daughter Phyllis is listed as niece of James and Lillian Broomhall in 1911. Lilian Ellen Elton (father's name Joseph) married James Broomhall in 1893.

Lilian Ellen Elton was born 1870, daughter of Joseph Elton & Elizabeth Gee.

Unless there is a connection to James Broomhall then it seems likely that she is the Elizabeth Rosa mmn Gee.
Click to expand...

The first two are correct MWS, thank you. But 'our' Rose is definitely Rose Elizabeth. I think this has been entered incorrectly on an Ancestry tree. I got misled at one stage by this but I'm pretty sure now that she isn't Elizabeth Rosa. I did find the baptism for Elizabeth Rosa but can't find any for the ones I'm searching for as yet.

I found a marriage for Joseph and Elizabeth Gee but only on the civil entries list not the church records. Joseph came from Coventry but they were married here in Birmingham.

Joseph's father, also Joseph, was a publican but I can't read the name of the road on the 1861 census. I was hoping to find out the pub but will keep trying. On Joseph's baptism record at Holy Trinity Coventry they were living in Bishop Street.
 
If Lilian's birth is with mmn Gee and the birth of Elizabeth Rosa is with mmn Gee then is it possible her birth as registered as Elizabeth Rosa but she was always know as Rose Elizabeth?
Lady P - I think the address on 1861 is Primrose Hill Street. It is clearer on page 2
1605809351471.png
 
Thanks Janice. I just couldn't work it out but now you've said that it's obvious!

That could be right about the name but I'll look into it further. More puzzles.
 
MWS said:
Rose's daughter Phyllis is listed as niece of James and Lillian Broomhall in 1911. Lilian Ellen Elton (father's name Joseph) married James Broomhall in 1893.

Lilian Ellen Elton was born 1870, daughter of Joseph Elton & Elizabeth Gee.

Unless there is a connection to James Broomhall then it seems likely that she was registered as Elizabeth Rosa, mmn Gee. My nan was registered as Sarah Ann and was always called Ann/Annie.
Click to expand...

MWS. Thanks for persevering - I understand now (with Janice's help). Sometimes it takes a while to sink in!
 
There is a baptism entry (transcript only) for an Elizabeth Dora (should that be Rosa) daughter of Joseph and Elizabeth Elton at St Andrew's Bordesley on 7 Sep 1873.
My guess is that having named the child Elizabeth Rosa she was known as Rose as her Mother was called Elizabeth.
 
I've checked and have Rose's birth date as 17th October 1873. So not sure now. Will do a little more digging later as it seems strange that the parents are right and it's not a particularly common name. However, having learned my lesson by dismissing MWS's suggestion, I won't hopefully do it again!
 
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