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Midland Red Early Days

Thanks Lloyd. O1283 was brand new in October 1906, so that date certainly makes more sense for exhibition. I'll look for an account of the 1906 Olympia Motor Show. And the bodies we see in the pictures may well be the "originals" (ex-Milnes Daimler and Wolseley), plus one new one.

By the way, do you know the story of Wolseley O1282, which Hardy simply includes in the Midland Red fleet (ex-BME); but Midland Red Volume 1 casts considerable doubt on (page 17)?
 
On a slight tangent, this part of a synopsis of the 1907 Commercial show might be of interest:
"The Brush 35 horse-power petrol omnibus is shown on the stand of the British Automobile Development Company, Limited, Belvedere-road, London. The special features of this chassis are the substitution of hornblocks and guides for radius rods, saving the road springs from lateral play; the spring suspension of the live axle, and the position of the driver's seat. The engine has four cylinders cast separately, and with valves all one side. There are five main bearings for the crank shaft, and inspection covers are provided for easy access to the crank chamber. Forced lubrication under a pressure of 15 lb. is provided for the main bearings. A double-deck omnibus is shown, of which the body is entirely built of steel."
'All metal' bus bodies did not gain enthusiastic response from the industry until the 1930s of course.
Here is a Milnes-Daimler chassis of the period.
 
Very interesting, Lloyd! Showing the close BAD / Brush relationship. Was the all-steel body a bit heavy for the engines of those days?!?! Lovely picture of a Milnes-Daimler chassis.
 
Re Wolseley O 1282, I do not know the reason Hardy's information is doubted. As far as I am aware the two identical vehicles ran as demonstrators.
 
All metal bodies. I suppose that as the early ones (up to the mid-1950s I suppose) were of rivetted and bolted construction, rather than today's welded frames, this would add to the weight (and cost) but I am not aware that they were unduly over heavy. The LGOC had at least one all metal bodied AEC B type, a few were trialled by Short Bros (who of course had experience of aircraft production where weight was important) and one at least of the Short bodied SOS REDDs was all-metal (I have seen pics of it under construction). Most designs use either 'L', 'H' or 'T' sections or hollow tubes as the main load bearing members, so the reduction in dimensions over wooden pillars and beams helps to compensate. For a time 'composite' bodies were popular, incorporating both metal and wooden frame components. Longevity and ease of accident repair was more of a concern to the operator, as weight was an item of original design.
 
In the text of Gavin Booth's book he states that the BMMO abandoned motorbuses in 1907 but goes on to say "When BMMO withdrew from motorbus operation in 1908 , Sidney (now spelt with an i) Garcke bought six Brush double-deckers and brought them to Deal in Kent. Using three of the buses, with the other three as spares, Garcke started regular services in April 1908.There had been earlier motor bus experiments in East Kent, but Garcke's Deal & District Motor Services was the most successful, and soon there were other operators chasing the passengers. The shortages and other problems of World War I prompted Garcke to engineer a merger between these companies, and in 1916 the East Kent Road Car Company was formed to take over the five main competitors. The new fleet inherited 72 buses, a mixture of Albions, Commers, Daimlers, Leylands, Straker-Squires and Tilling-Stevens." Unfortunately we don't know the actual source of Mr Booth's information here.
 
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Thanks Gentlemen!

Thanks, Lloyd, for those details on all-metal body construction. Very interesting.

Thanks for that Gavin Booth quote, Mike. It seems that there were (at least) two sources of information on this "episode". Peter Hardy obviously had access to Midland Red internal documents, and viewed matters from the Birmingham end. Charles Klapper probably had direct access to Sid Garcke's recollections (perhaps many years after the events described), and saw things from a Kent point of view. Gavin Booth's account seems to agree closely with Klapper's. Anyway, by the time East Kent Road Car Co Ltd was established in 1916, the ex-Midland Red Brush buses seem to have been long gone. If only we had access to Dr Who's Tardis!

I'm finding it very hard to withdraw from the Forum!! Actually I don't really have to: there will just be a day or two while I set up my computer at my new place.

[I hope you're all "enjoying" your general election, which is getting a lot of news coverage "down under". On a modest scale, we Tasmanians had an election recently, resulting in a coalition government between Labor (which we spell the American way for some reason!) and the Greens.]
 
Re: Thanks Gentlemen!

Came across this picture the other day.It shows Midland Red Depot,Bearwood Road,1912.
Moss.
 
That's a lovely picture, Moss, of Midland Red horses and horse-keepers at Bearwood, shortly before the end of the horse era. Also a rare picture of Midland Red dogs!
 
Jenson on BMMO.

2010-05-08 08:13:50

Alec George Jenson's Birmingham Transport (Birmingham: Birmingham Transport Historical Group, 1978) covers the history of "public road transport in the Birmingham area" from the very beginnings to the end of the standard-gauge horse tramway era in the 1880s. The story told pre-dates the Midland Red era, but there are two brief mentions of BMMO, which are interesting enough to be quoted on this thread:

 [1] "There were some coach services in existence at the end of the [19th] century but mainly as tourist attractions and the Birmingham & Midland Motor Omnibus Co Ltd were operating a four-in-hand coach to Lilleshall Hall from the Grand Hotel, Colmore Row, Birmingham, as late as 1928."

As we learned from the BMMO "Bank Holiday" notice of circa 1908 (see post #46): "the company's well known four-in-hand coaches Tally-ho, Magnet, Tan-tiv-y can be hired for pleasure parties on moderate terms". Clearly one of these lasted for at least another twenty years. You would think that this remarkable vehicle would have been photographed. Does anyone know anything further?

[2] "At least one conductor [of the Birmingham Tramways & Omnibus Co Ltd] lived until the 1930s and he was a well known character Mr Charlie Clewes (known as 'Smiler' in his younger days) who was in the employ of the Birmingham & Midland Motor Omnibus Co Ltd. He was engaged by Alderman [William] Brinsley in 1880 and remained in the transport business all his life."

Does anyone have any further information about Charlie "Smiler" Clewes?
 
Can't really help on Charlie 'Smiler' Clewes, the only person I have found who could fit is in the 1911 census, Thomas Henry Clewes, who at 45 years of age (born Bilston, Staffs, 1866) was a "Motor car driver - Tramway Motorman" living in Oldbury Rd, West Smethwick. He died 2nd quarter 1930, aged 64. he also had a son Charles Percy Clewes, born Smethwick 1894, who in 1911 aged 16 was a "Pint turner, tramway depot" whatever that was. Points changer perhaps?

1901 census has a Charles Clewes aged 38 (b.c1863) who was an 'Omnibus Inspector', that could of course be a vehicle checker or the more familiar traffic (ticket) inspector - he was single and in lodgings at 308 Balsall Heath Rd, Birmingham.
 
Lloyd, Charles Clewes (born c 1863) would have been about 17 in 1880, about the "right" age to begin life as a tram conductor. I wonder how old he was when he stopped smiling? ;)
 
In the 1911 Census he is Charles CLOWES (even in his own writing) and is employed as 'Tram and Omnibus Inspector' by 'B&M Trams Ltd'
He married Sarah Elizabeth Hurst in 1902, they have (in 1911) no children, and live at 83 Ladywood Road.
With that spelling the 1891 has him as a Bus Conductor, living at home with parents at 22 Barker St Ladywood, he is there in 1871 also as a scholar. Can't find him in 1881.
Possibly not the 'smiler' Clewes we are after, although a 'company' (BET) man.
 
Thylacine said:
Thanks for posting those fascinating pictures. Would it be possible by any chance to re-scan them at higher resolution? The size is fine, but more pixels per inch would be good. These are previously unknown Midland Red pictures, and your family connection makes them especially interesting.
Click to expand...

A kind relation :wave: has shared with me a better scan of the original pics which I attach.

The one with the single bus to Blackpool is marked as being Miller Street but I am not sure that this is correct - would it be likely that a Midland Red bus would be stood outside the Miller Street Depot? Also the building to the left looks to me to be an early Petrol Station (note the BP & Castrol signage and the Petrol Pump) rather than part of the depot and there seems to be no mention of such in the Directories - can anyone confirm/deny/recognise the location please?

I still think Blackpool seems an awful long way to go on one of these - any idea if this was a special oneoff/once a year type trip or a regular service in the early 20s?

Is there a significance to the White Coat or Buff/Khaki Coat?
 
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I don't have exact details to hand, but regular (probably weekly) long distance services to 'coastal resorts' started in 1921, with the solid-tyred tilling Stevens vehicles. That 'Miller street' doesn't look like Birmingham archetecture - perhaps it was taken at a refreshment stop en route?
Of the identifiable vehicles in the second picture, OE 1130 ran from 1919 to 1927; OE 6194, OH 1204/25 ran in the condition shown from 1920 till 1930, when they were given more modern looking bodies (second hand from newer chassis themselves being rebodied). That dates the view to between 1920 and 1927. Sadly the charabancs are not identifiable, but the age ranges of them are very similar, 1919-1928.
 
Lloyd - thanks - that must have been a better white-knuckle ride than the fair in 1921 :biggrin:

If Miller St seems unlikely, then perhaps it is at the destination when the cameras would be handy and a souvenir of surviving might be strongly felt? It's about 120 miles B/Ham to Blackpool and if the top legal speed was about 20mph then at an average speed the journey must have taken over 10hours surely and from what you've said with dodgy brakes, solid tyres and suspension - The journey (esp return, filled with candy floss etc) may have been more interesting than the destination :sick: Even in modern day transport it can be challenging over unmade roads or cobblestones...Ouch
 
Midland Red 1920s Coach Services.

2010-05-13 09:11:58

Aidan, thanks indeed for the much improved pictures! :)

Peter Hardy (BMMO Volume 1) states:

"On 7 May 1921 came the first long-distance coach services to the coast, from Birmingham to Weston-super-Mare [Birmingham-on-Sea!], followed on 16 June by a similar service to Llandudno. The following year, services to Blackpool and Aberystwyth were introduced, but for economy of operation these were operated jointly with operators based at the coastal terminals (C Smith and Crosville respectively). The first extended tour left Birmingham on 13 July 1927 and over the years the coaching side of the Company's business has developed until now [1961] the Long Distance and Coach Cruise Departments handle thousands of bookings each season."
 
By the way, Aidan, is your great-great-uncle on the left or right of the picture of HA2351? It seems to have been Midland Red policy that staff were not allowed to smile when photographs were taken! But the man on the left is almost smiling! :D

Joseph (Christoper) Surman: was Christopher his middle name?
 
Thylacine - Thanks for the info on the Blackpool run - very surprising. A poss reason for the photo (which Lloyd dated to 1923-28) could be it was the first run or perhaps the first with that bus.

I am told that Joseph (Christopher) Surman is the smiler (I like to think so although there is an unfortunate scratch on the image) on the left of HA2351. He was born Christopher Joseph but only used his middle name. He never married. All the bus people I have researched (very small unrepresentative sample!) seem to be/remain unmarried - I wonder why as they would meet many people through their role but perhaps not socially or perhaps long hours and short pay?
 
Following the discussions on this thread, during a break in North Wales recently, my memories went back to my first visit to Rhyl in Easter 1945. Today there is an almost continuous trailer park along the coast from Abergele to Prestatyn, but I was thinking of that motley collection of pre-war shanties that lined the railway and coast road there on my first visit. Motley old railway carriages and vans, and some SOS forward control bus bodies - I especially remember an early FS with the vertical windscreen - perhaps from the Llandudno Company.
This was only months after I had seen HA 2500 in its final full fronted version with dual control for driver training once or twice around Bearwood garage. Otherwise the oldest SOS vehicles (other than fairground homes) in BMMO livery at that time were in the HA 48xx series. Evidently, from the caption to the picture of HA 3781 in BMMO Volume 1, this bus was returned from military service after the war, and stayed in the fleet until 1950. What a record!
Peter
 
2010-05-14 08:21:01

Aidan, it couldn't be the first Blackpool run (1922) because HA2351 wasn't built until the second half of 1923. The first run would have been in a solid-tyred petrol-electric Tilling-Stevens TS3 charabanc (and even more of a bone-shaking experience, though I think the ride would have been more comfortable than we might imagine). It could indeed be the first trip to Blackpool of that particular charabanc (not actually a bus, though it does have its canvas hood extended). It would take some super sleuthing to pin the date down to anything closer than Lloyd's 1923-1928. By the way, do you have a portrait photo of (Christopher) Joseph Surman? It would be nice to see what he really looked like! You raise an interesting question about the marital status of early busmen. I'm not sure if they married more or less than the average, but it would be interesting to know more.

Peter, good to hear from you again. I hope you enjoyed your holiday. Thanks for your memories of North Welsh holiday shanties (including the former SOS FS – did you get its registration by any chance?). Holiday homes, mobile homes and garden sheds have been a wonderful source of preserved classic buses. Your sighting of HA2500 (1925 prototype SOS FS) as dual-control driver-trainer is a remarkable one! But I can't find any record of such a conversion of HA2500. Perhaps it is the even older HA2250 you saw (1923 Tilling-Stevens FS open-top double-decker; converted to single-deck dual-control driver-trainer in 1931). It is pictured in Midland Red Volume 2 (page 157). This remarkable vehicle lasted until 1952!

My days as a bus spotter didn't begin until about 1960, and sadly my underlined Midland Red fleet lists of those days haven't survived. However, my copy of Peter Hardy's BMMO Volume 2 (1959) has an underlining for A1530 (1934 prototype SOS DON registered HA9481) as a tree-cutter in the "Buses Converted ..." appendix. So I must have seen it, though my memory is pretty vague! This bus is pictured in Midland Red Volume 2 (page 201). It was finally sold for scrap in 1963. Happy days, Peter! :)
 
Former Tilling-Stevens 'FS' double decker HA 2250 (on the right), as later rebuilt with SOS QL engine and gearbox and a SOS 'Standard' body converted to full-width cab with two driving positions awaits another trainee driver in the newly-opened 1949 extention to Bearwood Garage. The use of such vehicles where the instructor could take over if the trainee got it dangerously wrong were fairly common in the days of limited private car ownership.
The 'Anns Gowns' shop, far right, later became Midland Red offices, with advertisements for excursions and private hires in the windows.
 
Great picture, Lloyd. I love the late 40s "modern" architecture. Is any of (Midland Red) Bearwood still standing?
 
Sadly not, destroyed in the 1970s and replaced by a supermarket and shops. This was our local shopping area in my young years, and the road isn't anything like the same genteel area it was back in the 1950s and 60s when I would peer (and sometimes creep, unnoticed) in to see the big red buses that captured my imagination.
Here's another view, c 1934 this time. The Majestic Cinema far left is showing what appears to be a Tim McCoy western, and the glass domed windows of the booking and information offices can be seen at the front of the four-storey head office of the time, which had the word 'MIDLAND' in white glazed bricks incorporated into the end wall roof apex on both sides. The shops which were demolished to allow that 1949 extention are still standing in this view, the 'Anns Gowns' shop mentioned before is hidden by the head of the pedestrian nearest to us.
When the extention was built, a third glass domed window replaced the far end vehicle doorway (it is visible in the above 1949 shot, and formerly being a doorway has the company name above it.)
The same street view today can be seen here.
 
Classic views, Dek
CM6T coach 5653 heading for London on the M45 motorway; 1933 type REDD (Rear Entrance Double Deck) HA 8029 when new - an official photo by the bodymaker, Brush Engineering of Loughborough. This bus lasted in service until 1950; T.W. Moore's atmospheric view (note the misted-up windows!) of D7 4401 in an autumn evening traffic jam in Coventry, heading for Leicester - this was a Digbeth garage bus, you can tell by the code letters 'DH' to the left of both destination blinds; and D9 5389 at the place of its birth, Carlyle Road Works, Edgbaston. Telford's 1827 canal reservoir grounds are just over the low wall behind the bus, giving a countrified feel to that side of the premises.
 
Thylacine said:
By the way, do you have a portrait photo of (Christopher) Joseph Surman? It would be nice to see what he really looked like!
Click to expand...

Thylacine - Thanks for the additional info. These are the only known photos of Joseph/Christopher Surman due I suppose to him not being married and probably being away most weekends when there were family gatherings (assumed life of a Charabanc Driver).

In the single vehicle picture he is tall and rather portly. I am not sure I can identify him specifically in the Group photo, although my guess is that he is chap on far left in brown/buff (leather?) coat or poss the chap in white coat at centre-back.

Leads me to ask what/whether there is any significance to the colour of coat worn (most seem to be long Lab or Trench coats, couple with seemingly military type jackets)? There also seems to be white and dark caps but doesn't necessarily match the colour of their coats. Some of the chaps clearly have their white coat on underneath the buff trenchcoat. I am assuming there was some sort of uniform standard by this time and that the style/colour has some significance. My uninformed guess would be buff trenchcoat & hat = bus driver, white trenchcoat & hat =Charabanc driver, Military type jacket = inspector. Also there seems to be a cap badge - does anyone have a closeup please? Apologies if this is off-topic
 
The uniforms were as you surmise brown dustcoats for bus drivers, white for coachmen. Conductors and Inspectors wore the 'military style' jackets, both drivers and conductors were supposed to wear elasticated white cap covers when doing coach duties. Incidentally the differences were because the drivers were employed by the engineering department under Mr Wyndham Shire, whilst conductors and inspectors were traffic department men, under Mr Power.
 
Thanks again Lloyd, most interesting, especially the crew working for two different departments - seems strange but obviously worked.

The inspectors seem to have some sort of insignia on their Jackets but I would be most interested if there is an image of the cap-badge of the time in existence. :armycigar:
 
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