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Midland Red Early Days

Have just come back from four hectic days in Leipzig but did have some time to ride the rails as at over 300Kms Leipzig has the largest tramway network in Germany. However of bus interest was the fact that they were using for their city tours, 3 1930s Paris buses with the open rear platform, a Routemaster (RM641) and 2 Bristol Lodekkas. One of the Lodekkas was in red and white livery but I was never close enough to see any details. The other was in London Transport livery and the front entrance doors had been switched to the right hand side behind the stair case. This is a case for the detectives on the forum. Can you identify the vehicle please? Photo shows what I could read of the rear registration number plate.

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David, welcome back from your interesting visit to Germany! Your question might be even more difficult than it appears! According to this Southern Vectis enthusiast's webpage on the Bristol Lodekka: "Although London Transport never did use Bristol Lodekka's, many of them masquerade abroad as such, particularly in North America". There are pictures there of an ex-Southern Vectis Lodekka in Cologne in LT livery! Plus that registration mark under the Leipzig plate doesn't look British, does it? It's something like "KRH2301". I'm admitting defeat already, but good luck! ;)
 
Nice one, David.
It is former Hants and Dorset 1562 (later 1259) a Leyland engined Bristol FLF6L (Flat floor, Long wheelbase, Front entrance 6 cylinder Leyland engine) registered KRU 236F. Full history here and another pic of the complete bus in Leipzig showing entrance doors moved to offside here.

*hangs up anorak*
 
As for the Routemaster (see my next post as well), I refer to the Bible of London Transport vehicles, Ian Smith's "Ian's Bus Stop" which gives detailled descriptions and histories for a large majority of the Capital's bus fleet from the 1920s to date.

The two letters after the date are the garage allocation codes:
WN=Wood Green, WH=West Ham, AV=Hounslow, R=Riverside (Hammersmith), PR=Poplar, WW=Walthamstow, S=Shepherds Bush, W=Dollis Hill (Cricklewood), SW=Stockwell, SF=Stamford Hill, GM= (I don't know, a storage facility somewhere I suppose.)

RM641 WLT 641 type: 7/5RM5/7
4/61 WN into service on 127, 259, 269 (Wood Green)
5/65 WH to Aldenham overhaul
5/65 WH from overhaul
1966 WH
3/67 AV transfer (Hounslow)
3/67 WN transfer
4/67 R transfer (Riverside)
4/67 PR ..and again (Poplar)
5/67 WW transfer (Walthamstow)
8/67 WH transfer
10/67 S transfer (Shepherds Bush)
11/67 W transfer (Cricklewood)
11/67 SW ..and again (Stockwell)
11/67 W ..and back
12/71 SF in store (Stamford Hill)
12/71 WW transfer from last bodyswap with B244
6/86 GM withdrawn
9/86 bought by Clydeside Scottish
5/89 Western Scottish, #C48
8/90 sold to Lister (Bolton)
8/90 sold to Brakell (Cheam)
2/95 exported to Germany hospitality vehicle: Menden
12/08 sightseeing tour vehicle, with Royal London Bus GbR of Leipzig registered "L FA371"

Now I see it is "L O 1967", possibly re-registered after the entrance door move and subsequent examination by the German version of the DVLA. N.B. This last bit is wrong - for correction see post #1299
 
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Sorry Lloyd L O 1967 is the current reg of the Lodekka. The RM is still registered L FA371. The only alteration I saw on the RM was the fitting of ugly hinged outward opening doors on the rear platform. I saw a much better conversion in Malmo Sweden of an RT a few years ago where they had fitted a wrought iron fence and gate across the open platform
 
Midland Red owned but never ran Bristol Lodekkas (ex Harpers) so I couldn't drive one. They never owned Routemasters, but I did drive one for them! There was a time when the Carlyle Road works was doing some work for London Transport, and a Routemaster had to be returned to Brixton garage, luckily the job was given to me! a splendid day out and I was paid for it!
 
DavidGrain said:
Lloyd, As someone who has driven both D9s and RMs, How would you compare them?
Click to expand...

Interesting question. Although some describe the D9 as the 'Birmingham Routemaster', in fact they are like chalk and cheese.
London Transport put an almost unbelieveable amount of money into the Routemaster design and development, it was intended to replace the remaining pre-war stock (of which there was quite a lot) and most of the trolleybuses. It was going to be the standard double decker of the fleet and had to be right from the word go. Maintenance and overhaul proceedures for them had to be designed as well, and it paid off as the design was the capital's standard for 40 years (the first one was built in 1959 and there are a few still running in London, and plenty running all over the world. The drivers' viewpoint (as well as the conductors', the mechanics' and the passengers') was greatly taken into account - these were the people who were going to use it, after all.
Its handling on the road reflects this, and although underpowered by today's standards, it was extremely advanced for its day. Semi-automatic or fully-automatic gear changing (at the driver's discretion), power steering, high-pressure hydraulic brakes, effective heating and ventilation and good all-round visibility giving a comfortable and even easy time behind the wheel were definitely NOT the driver's norm for the day on any other vehicle.
Although Midland Red addressed many of the same design requirements, obviously they could not afford to spend anything like as much money on it, but within such limits they produced a vehicle well capable of doing its job. Midland Red vehicles are designed for what they have to do, no more - they are certainly NOt over-engineered in the same way the Routemaster was, and suffered (albeit only slightly) because of it.
The disc brakes used by BMMO since the S14 single decker of the mid-50s was not up to the weight of a double decker, and soon had to be replaced by 'normal' drum brakes. Brake fade with the discs was an early problem, as units overheated sometimes enough to weaken the mounting bolts, when the caliper would literally fall off causing complete loss of footbrake. The rubber suspension could cause uncomfortable 'bouncing' at speed on some road surfaces (particularly cast concrete) and one strange effect of the gearbox-driven brake and power steering pumps was that on approaching a sharp bend you could brake, or steer - but not both at the same time!
An hour or so behind the wheel, though, and you had learned the D9's idiosyncrasies, and with that knowledge they were a very nice bus to drive - certainly better than the D7 or LD8 models before them, which had clutch and gearbox transmission and no power steering.
How would I compare them? How would a car driver compare a (modern) Rover 75 and a Rolls-Royce?
Both do their job very well, but one does it a bit better than the other. But there again, it cost quite a lot more.
 
Many thanks for that, Lloyd, nice to hear an expert's view and I think you have summed it up with your comment about how much money was available to spend on the development. There were over 2,500 RMs but only a few hundred D9s over which to spread the development cost. Nice to know however that a few D9s did go to London for the sightseeing tours, years ago I was walking along the Embankment and thought there is something funny about that bus in London, then realised that it was an ex-Midland Red.
 
The D9's that went to London were an easy bus to convert to open top (they were used for sightseeing services) as the roof had no part in the integral strength of the body.
A few survive, one at Wythall, one owned by (but not kept at) Aston Manor transport museum, and one owned by a German brewery. (They thought it was a genuine London bus e.g. Routemaster when they bought it, but now know what it is and are very keen to have something 'different'.
Th London ones were driven by London Transport staff, who found them not as good as the Routemasters they were used to, but they were old by then anyway.
 
MidlandRed.net has a picture of ex-Midland Red D9 4903 (903KHA) as seen with Mauritius Brauerei GmbH (Zwickau, Germany). There is also a tiny picture here of a model called "Mauritius / Zwickauer Mauritius. Ein Schluck Heimat / Leyland D9 Doppeldeckerbus" :)rolleyes:).
 
I was researching one Herbert George Wood (1879-1963) for another thread, and I came across a reference (at Copac) to these two collections by H G Wood (not necessarily the same person) presently located at the University of Leicester (Special Collections):
[1] A guard book collection of 129 passenger fare tickets issued by the Birmingham and Midland Motor Omnibus Company, and West Bromwich Corporation Transport between circa 1930 and 1950.
[2] A collection of tramway material, including photographs, newspaper cuttings, correspondence and other memoranda circa 1950 (two boxes, eleven folders and seven large envelopes).​
These would seem to be useful resources for Midlands public transport research. I would like to see those tickets! If anyone is visiting Leicester in the near future, perhaps they could call in at the University (with a camera!) ... :)
 
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Handsome Coach, Lloyd!

At first glance, the beautiful coach pictured below (once a Midland Red rival) might be the property of an esteemed colleague of ours! (I bet you wouldn't mind owning it in this condition, Lloyd! ;))

It is registered CWH510: a 1948 AEC Regal III (chassis number O962370) originally with Beccols C33F half-cab body. It was new in March 1948 to W Knowles and Sons (Bolton), and passed in December 1953 to Joe Lloyd and Sons Ltd (Nuneaton) via dealer Grunton (London SE9). In 1955 Lloyds rebodied the coach with a Duple "Vega" C35F body (number 1051/289), as pictured. It passed to H Clarke (Newcastle Emlyn, Dyfed) in August 1959, to Jenkins of the same town in August 1966, to R Davies (Tredegar) in April 1968, and finally to dealer Way (Cardiff) in October 1969.

[Thanks to Omnibus #177 (January 2007). Also attached below is a picture of Sycamore Street, Newcastle Emlyn, where the coach resided 1959-1968.]
 
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Just dropped in to catch up on the old Red thread after a week exploring Jersey. Re #1269, the ex Harpers RTL. This fine photo by Paul Roberts, a former Harpers driver and workmate of Lloyd and myself at Digbeth, shows it as fleet No. 3 which suggests it was 2203 with Midland Red. Note the comparison in condition when parked next to former London stablemate KGU 216 at the time with Stevenson's of Uttoxeter as their No. 29. Paul has more excellent photos in a book he has published - 'Midland Bus Memories in Colour'
 
Welcome back, Mike! I trust you enjoyed your visit to the Channel Isles. That's a lovely picture of two ex-London workhorses side by side. :thumbsup: Companies like Harper and Stevenson brightened up the Midlands with their colourful and interesting fleets. (That's the anorak's point of view: the drivers and mechanics probably had a different opinion of those venerable vehicles!). And a glimpse of 1950 Leyland Tiger GAY170 in the background (ex C H Allen of Mountsorrel, Leicestershire). I hadn't seen a picture of that one with Stevenson before (identical twin GAY171 was more often photographed).
 
Attached below is an interesting picture of a horse bus operated by Charles Winkett (113-114 Great Brook Street, Nechells). It is allegedly seen in Bloomsbury Street, Nechells (can anyone confirm or disprove this?). We are not told the date, but it must be no later than 1896.

The picture is of special interest to this thread, as Charles Winkett is a small branch of the Midland Red "family tree". Financier Charles Tebbitt purchased Winkett's omnibus business on 31 October 1896, and it later became part of Tebbitt's Birmingham General Omnibus Co Ltd (established April 1897). This company passed to British Electric Traction Co Ltd (BET) in September 1899, and was operated as the Birmingham General Omnibus Department (BGOD) under R Fairbairn and O C Power. BGOD passed to Birmingham and Midland Tramways Co Ltd (BMT) on 31 December 1901, and was operated as the BMT Omnibus Department (BMTOD) under O C Power as Traffic Manager. Finally, on 21 July 1905, BMTOD was transferred to the new Birmingham and Midland Motor Omnibus Co Ltd (BMMO), later known as Midland Red.

[Thanks to Astoness (Lyn) who originally posted this picture on her "old evening mail pics ..." thread. Any additional information on Charles Winkett (born circa 1870) would be most welcome.]
 
The confirmation of Bloomsbury Street is the nameplate visible through the upper deck passengers.

1911 census has Charles Winkett, 32 b. Birmingham, beer house keeper employed by brewery; his wife Violet May (nee Jones, 31, b. Saltley - their marriage registered 1st quarter 1900, Solihull vol 6d page 651); 'relative' (possibly Charles' mother) Elizabeth Ann Winkett, 62, b. Nottingham. There is a servant, widow Elizabeth Innis, 32, b. Oxford as well.
The address is The Shakespeare Inn, Park Road, Hockley.

Charles and Violet had two children, neither of whom survived.
Charles Edward Winkett, b. 1st q.1901 Aston vol 6d page 351, d. 3rd q.1901 Aston vol 6d page 219;
Alfred Edward Winkett, b. 2nd q.1902 Aston vol 6d page 339, d. 2nd q.1902 Aston vol 6d page 194. [Not conclusively proved, but the most likely candidate.]
 
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1901 census has Charles and Violet Winkett (mistranscribed Winbeth) with 2 month old son Charles at 113 Great Brook Street, Aston. Charles (snr) is a cab proprietor (employer).
19 y.o. Emily Naish is their servant.
 
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1891 census has Charles Winkett, 48, b. Evesham, cab proprietor; wife Elizabeth, 43; sons Charles, 11; Alfred, 9; and daughter Leah, 6; at 85 Ashted Row, Duddeston, Aston.

So the business passed from father to son, and the father died in 1908 aged 55. (I suspect that should be 65).

Alfred Winkett married Florence Askew (b. Nottingham 1st q.1881) Aston, 3rd q.1906
Leah Winkett married Thomas Arthur Lyon (b.Stoke Newington 2nd q.1881) Kings Norton 2nd q.1903, and Frederick R Stevenson, Aston 4th q.1914.
 
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Sorry for short notice but I have only just noticed it in my diary. This Saturday 6th November Smethwick Heritage Centre Road Show is at St Mary's Church Bearwood (almost oposite the former Midland Red garage) 10.30 to 4.00. Theme of this event will be Midland Red
 
Thanks for the info David. I'm afraid my Lear jet is in for a service, so I won't be able to make it. I hope some kind MRED follower attends with a camera. ;)
 
I'll try to pop over for that (a free ride on my bus pass!), but Motorway Coach 5656 is in for pre MOT work this weekend & I'll be up to my armpits in muck and engine oil most of the time. Worth me going though, I might bump into some old work colleagues there!
 
Lloyd, Pity I did not think about it earlier otherwise we could have asked around for someone with an ex Midland Red to come along. A 221, 229 or 233 stading at the stop in St Mary's Road would have provoked some comment. Although the present drivers of services 447 & 448 (ex 221) have enough trouble turning right onto the Bearwood Road these days with their long single deckers.
 
Apparently they have asked Wythall for one - sadly none are available tomorrow, and as you say, parking is difficult in that area. A bit more notice and we (or individuals) could have brought lots of ephemera, models and photo displays.
Still, here in compensation is Bearwood Bus Station as I remember it in the 1950s.
 
I can't see what service the FEDD is on. From position on the road I was wondering if this was a Sunday photo with Midland Red operating on the B82. Only one Birmingham Corporation bus in the station when I can remember as many as 4 or 5 on the B82. My guess is that the photo is early/mid 1950s soon after the bus staion was opened. Am I right?
 
Don't know the exact date, but between 1952 (when the bus station opened) and 1960 (when the last FEDDs finished, apart from a late hanger-on or two at Stafford). The bus is on the 223 service.
 
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