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Midland Red Early Days
- Thread starter Thylacine
- Start date
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- 1900s 1910s bmmo early days midland red
Lloyd
master brummie
The ‘Commercial Goods Vehicle Fleet’ caused me some concern years ago when I was trying to make sense of Peter Hardy’s list. I think even he says some of it is conjecture, so I rewrote it – and while I must say it is my idea of what happened, I have no proof.
In 1914 three Napier 30 cwt chassis were bought, numbers 1417, 1241, and 1494. These were registered OA 6001-3, and had bonnet numbers 1-3 (not being buses, that they duplicated others didn’t matter), and carried bodies B2-4.
The two newer ones, OA 6001/3, were commandeered by the war department in 1915 and OA 6002 carried on till 1916.
In 1915 more chassis were acquired, another Napier 30 cwt (1247) MX 1405 which became OA 8601 with body B8, bonnet no 1, 2 was still there (see above), 3-8 were Romar 40 cwt chassis (2049/54/5, 506/9/8) registered OA 8603-8 with bodies B18/19/22/14/38/87, 9, 11/7. OA 8603 and 8608 swapped bodies at some point, as did OA 8605 and 8607.
OA 8609, OB 610/11 were further Napier 30 cwt chassis (1887/94/8) with bodies B 9/11/7.
1916 saw McCurd 4 ton lorries join the fleet, chassis 353/4/50 which became OB 1612-4 with bodies B 24/5/7.
15-21 were Selden chassis, three 20 cwt (1943/20/06) which became OB 1615/6/21 with bodies B7/12/33; and four 40 cwt chassis (31601/2/8/22) as OB 1617-20 with bodies B28/31/2, 10.
OB 679 was a Guy 25/30 cwt (129) with body B 26, and OB 2417 was a Ford model T (1100503) with body B13. This is pictured P 196 volume 2 as you have previously mentioned. They don't fit the numerical list order, and might have been second hand.
In 1918 they went electric. OB 7122/3 were Walker 20 cwt battery-electric vehicles (chassis 912/28) with bodies B35/6, and OB 7687 was the 40 cwt version, ch. 992, body B 29.
1920 had two ‘service’ vehicles added, OE 7820 was an American FWD (Four Wheel Drive) which later became a recovery vehicle, and OH 3117 was a Thornycroft tanker for petrol movement (and refuelling?) and strangely carried a Tilling TS3 rear wheel strapped to its side. Perhaps it was needed sometimes if the solid tyres on a bus ‘peeled’ off the wheel, as they sometimes did. Both the latter are illustrated on P197 of part 2.
As well as the above, various bus chassis (Tilling TTA2 and TS3, and SOS S) carried lorry or van bodies at times to supplement the goods vehicle fleet.
In 1914 three Napier 30 cwt chassis were bought, numbers 1417, 1241, and 1494. These were registered OA 6001-3, and had bonnet numbers 1-3 (not being buses, that they duplicated others didn’t matter), and carried bodies B2-4.
The two newer ones, OA 6001/3, were commandeered by the war department in 1915 and OA 6002 carried on till 1916.
In 1915 more chassis were acquired, another Napier 30 cwt (1247) MX 1405 which became OA 8601 with body B8, bonnet no 1, 2 was still there (see above), 3-8 were Romar 40 cwt chassis (2049/54/5, 506/9/8) registered OA 8603-8 with bodies B18/19/22/14/38/87, 9, 11/7. OA 8603 and 8608 swapped bodies at some point, as did OA 8605 and 8607.
OA 8609, OB 610/11 were further Napier 30 cwt chassis (1887/94/8) with bodies B 9/11/7.
1916 saw McCurd 4 ton lorries join the fleet, chassis 353/4/50 which became OB 1612-4 with bodies B 24/5/7.
15-21 were Selden chassis, three 20 cwt (1943/20/06) which became OB 1615/6/21 with bodies B7/12/33; and four 40 cwt chassis (31601/2/8/22) as OB 1617-20 with bodies B28/31/2, 10.
OB 679 was a Guy 25/30 cwt (129) with body B 26, and OB 2417 was a Ford model T (1100503) with body B13. This is pictured P 196 volume 2 as you have previously mentioned. They don't fit the numerical list order, and might have been second hand.
In 1918 they went electric. OB 7122/3 were Walker 20 cwt battery-electric vehicles (chassis 912/28) with bodies B35/6, and OB 7687 was the 40 cwt version, ch. 992, body B 29.
1920 had two ‘service’ vehicles added, OE 7820 was an American FWD (Four Wheel Drive) which later became a recovery vehicle, and OH 3117 was a Thornycroft tanker for petrol movement (and refuelling?) and strangely carried a Tilling TS3 rear wheel strapped to its side. Perhaps it was needed sometimes if the solid tyres on a bus ‘peeled’ off the wheel, as they sometimes did. Both the latter are illustrated on P197 of part 2.
As well as the above, various bus chassis (Tilling TTA2 and TS3, and SOS S) carried lorry or van bodies at times to supplement the goods vehicle fleet.
Lloyd
master brummie
Moving forward a little, when the Leamington and Warwick Tramway company’s bus services were replaced by Midland Red buses from October 1937, it had to be on special conditions.
New buses had to be used (AHA registered DON types), the crews were separately rostered, and higher ‘protective’ fares had to be charged on through services overrunning the former tramway co’s routes.
Here’s a couple of the L&W fleet, Leyland VC 7801 and Daimler UE 9916 parked up in a field somewhere (possibly Stratford, on a hire) and brand new AHA 489 complete with ‘Town Service’ board on the cab front, to differentiate the cheaper service.
New buses had to be used (AHA registered DON types), the crews were separately rostered, and higher ‘protective’ fares had to be charged on through services overrunning the former tramway co’s routes.
Here’s a couple of the L&W fleet, Leyland VC 7801 and Daimler UE 9916 parked up in a field somewhere (possibly Stratford, on a hire) and brand new AHA 489 complete with ‘Town Service’ board on the cab front, to differentiate the cheaper service.
Thylacine
master brummie
2010-03-31 18:21:29
Puzzle Picture 3 (TTA2 bonnet number 102 Lloyd’s post #84).
[Sorry if this all seems a bit laboured; I’m trying to sort out fact from conjecture.]
I’m using four sources of information for this bus: Hardy’s BMMO Volume 1 (BV1); Midland Red Volume 1 page 32 (MV1); Midland Red Volume 2 page 222 (MV2); Lloyd’s post #84 (L84).
First of all the bus pictured in MV1 and L84 (same picture) is displaying registration OA7102. You can see it (in reverse) on the back window. I agree that it is a TTA2 so it must be A73.
Original registration: BV1 says "may have been V2216"; MV2 says "may have been V2216"; L84 says "had originally been VS2216". Strangely I have pencilled in VS2216 in my copy of BV1 (I did this long ago), probably to be consistent with A71 (perhaps VS225) and A72 (perhaps VS226). So is it "may have been" or is it "was definitely". And is it V2216 (Lanarkshire) or VS2216 (Glasgow).
Date new: BV1 and L84 agree that the chassis number is 38. Now the 1912 batch of Midland Red TTA2s (OA9913-9929) have chassis numbers (those that are known) in the range 14-26 (though Peter Gould’s Birmingham City Transport fleet list gives the chassis number of O9913 as 84 which is strange). And the 1913 batch of TTA2s (OA9930-9942, OA343-349, OA2549) have chassis numbers in the range 29-50. We can infer that A71 (chassis number 31), A72 (chassis number 47) and A73 (chassis number 38) were new in 1913.
Original owner: BV1 says of A71-73 "chassis given as ex Scottish Motor Transport"; MV2 says that A73 was "purchased as chassis only from Scottish Motor Traction"; If the original registrations VS225, VS226 and V2216 (or VS2216) are correct then BV1 says that A71 and A72 were ex-Scottish General Omnibus Co (Ltd) ex-Greenock & Port Glasgow Tramways (Co Ltd) and A73 was simply ex-Scottish General Omnibus Co (Ltd); MV2 and L84 agree with BV1 on this point as regards A73. If A71 and A72 were new to Greenock & Port Glasgow that might explain their VS (Glasgow) registrations. So the likely sequence of ownership for A71 and A72 is: Greenock & Port Glasgow to Scottish General Omnibus to Scottish Motor Transport (or Traction) to Midland Red. And for A73: Scottish General Omnibus to Scottish Motor Transport (or Traction) to Midland Red. Is it Transport of Traction? We need an expert in Scottish bus history to sort all this out!
Year bought by Midland Red: BV1 and MV2 say 1914; L84 says 1915. So is it 1914 or 1915? The A number sequence (in BV1) favours 1915 but it says 1914 and the A numbers are not always chronological.
Original bodies (when bought): BV1 says nothing; MV2 says none; L84 says possibly early charabanc body (for A73). C7 and C8 are recorded as "ex-Scottish MT" but they almost certainly came on ex-Edinburgh A264-265 (reg S4443-4444) in 1918. Are there any other possible candidates? It seems to me that "no bodies" is most likely.
First bodies in Midland Red service: BV1 (in the A number list) gives the bodies for A71-73 as "probably ex-Worcestershire Motor Transport" BB100-102 (with BB100-101 as O18/16R of unknown make and BB102 as Birch B29R); BV1 (in the BB list) says baldly "BB100-101 NO RECORD" and of BB102 "Birch B29R ex-Worcestershire"; MV2 says (of A73) "ex-Worcestershire Motor Transport Birch 29-seat body"; L84 agrees without specifically mentioning Worcestershire.
I agree with L84 that A73 was fitted with BB32 (Brush O18/16RO as pictured) in 1918, received registration AC43 in 1921 and was broken up also in 1921. But how do you date the picture to 1921? We have only the picture caption in MV1 to go by and we think that is completely wrong in its identification of the bus (as A260 ex-NWMOT TS3 which did receive OA7102 in 1921). Given that the bus pictured is carrying registration OA7102 it could quite easily be A73 seen at Carlyle Works after rebodying in 1918.
As you said Lloyd, it gets complicated. My head’s spinning but I’ll post this to see what you think.
Puzzle Picture 3 (TTA2 bonnet number 102 Lloyd’s post #84).
[Sorry if this all seems a bit laboured; I’m trying to sort out fact from conjecture.]
I’m using four sources of information for this bus: Hardy’s BMMO Volume 1 (BV1); Midland Red Volume 1 page 32 (MV1); Midland Red Volume 2 page 222 (MV2); Lloyd’s post #84 (L84).
First of all the bus pictured in MV1 and L84 (same picture) is displaying registration OA7102. You can see it (in reverse) on the back window. I agree that it is a TTA2 so it must be A73.
Original registration: BV1 says "may have been V2216"; MV2 says "may have been V2216"; L84 says "had originally been VS2216". Strangely I have pencilled in VS2216 in my copy of BV1 (I did this long ago), probably to be consistent with A71 (perhaps VS225) and A72 (perhaps VS226). So is it "may have been" or is it "was definitely". And is it V2216 (Lanarkshire) or VS2216 (Glasgow).
Date new: BV1 and L84 agree that the chassis number is 38. Now the 1912 batch of Midland Red TTA2s (OA9913-9929) have chassis numbers (those that are known) in the range 14-26 (though Peter Gould’s Birmingham City Transport fleet list gives the chassis number of O9913 as 84 which is strange). And the 1913 batch of TTA2s (OA9930-9942, OA343-349, OA2549) have chassis numbers in the range 29-50. We can infer that A71 (chassis number 31), A72 (chassis number 47) and A73 (chassis number 38) were new in 1913.
Original owner: BV1 says of A71-73 "chassis given as ex Scottish Motor Transport"; MV2 says that A73 was "purchased as chassis only from Scottish Motor Traction"; If the original registrations VS225, VS226 and V2216 (or VS2216) are correct then BV1 says that A71 and A72 were ex-Scottish General Omnibus Co (Ltd) ex-Greenock & Port Glasgow Tramways (Co Ltd) and A73 was simply ex-Scottish General Omnibus Co (Ltd); MV2 and L84 agree with BV1 on this point as regards A73. If A71 and A72 were new to Greenock & Port Glasgow that might explain their VS (Glasgow) registrations. So the likely sequence of ownership for A71 and A72 is: Greenock & Port Glasgow to Scottish General Omnibus to Scottish Motor Transport (or Traction) to Midland Red. And for A73: Scottish General Omnibus to Scottish Motor Transport (or Traction) to Midland Red. Is it Transport of Traction? We need an expert in Scottish bus history to sort all this out!
Year bought by Midland Red: BV1 and MV2 say 1914; L84 says 1915. So is it 1914 or 1915? The A number sequence (in BV1) favours 1915 but it says 1914 and the A numbers are not always chronological.
Original bodies (when bought): BV1 says nothing; MV2 says none; L84 says possibly early charabanc body (for A73). C7 and C8 are recorded as "ex-Scottish MT" but they almost certainly came on ex-Edinburgh A264-265 (reg S4443-4444) in 1918. Are there any other possible candidates? It seems to me that "no bodies" is most likely.
First bodies in Midland Red service: BV1 (in the A number list) gives the bodies for A71-73 as "probably ex-Worcestershire Motor Transport" BB100-102 (with BB100-101 as O18/16R of unknown make and BB102 as Birch B29R); BV1 (in the BB list) says baldly "BB100-101 NO RECORD" and of BB102 "Birch B29R ex-Worcestershire"; MV2 says (of A73) "ex-Worcestershire Motor Transport Birch 29-seat body"; L84 agrees without specifically mentioning Worcestershire.
I agree with L84 that A73 was fitted with BB32 (Brush O18/16RO as pictured) in 1918, received registration AC43 in 1921 and was broken up also in 1921. But how do you date the picture to 1921? We have only the picture caption in MV1 to go by and we think that is completely wrong in its identification of the bus (as A260 ex-NWMOT TS3 which did receive OA7102 in 1921). Given that the bus pictured is carrying registration OA7102 it could quite easily be A73 seen at Carlyle Works after rebodying in 1918.
As you said Lloyd, it gets complicated. My head’s spinning but I’ll post this to see what you think.
Lloyd
master brummie
I'll answer your post in a while, but first....
I think the time has come to tell the story of the two most important men in Midland Red’s history – Chief Engineer L.G. Wyndham Shire and traffic manager O. C. Power.
It is said that these two men disliked each other with such intensity that even lowly clerks from their respective departments risked instant dismissal for straying into the office corridor of the other’s – yet their dynamic personalities are what put the company in the position it once held – the largest bus operator in vehicle numbers outside of London Transport, and one whose area of operations stretched from Shrewsbury to Banbury, and from Hereford to Leicester.
Loftus George Wyndham Shire was born on January 3rd 1885 at 82 Norwood Road, Norwood, Lambeth, Surrey.He was the fourth of six children to Robert Walter Shire (1845 - ?) of Gurteen, Castlecomer, Co Kilkenny, Ireland, and Caroline Josephine Amelia Queely (1853 - ?) of Dublin, Ireland, who married in Portsea, Hampshire in 1879. In the 1881 census, the Shires were living with Caroline’s mother Emily Jesse Queely whose occupation is shown as ‘Income from dividends and returns’ at 1 Waverley Villas, Waverley Road, Southsea, Portsmouth. Robert Shire’s occupation is ‘City Manager of the Investment Registry and Stock Exchange Limited’, so I think we can deduce they were a fairly wealthy family.
By 1891 the family, now including Loftus Shire, was at 20 Avenue Road, Croydon, Surrey, and in 1901 they were at Willow Grange, Half Moon Lane, Camberwell, London. Robert Shire’s occupation is given as simply ‘Secretary of public company’ in these last two documents, so the family retained its position and wealth. Loftus George in 1901 is a ‘Clerk and civil engineering pupil’ and in November 1903 he became a voluntary sapper in the army, rising quickly to become a Lieutenant Corporal after 13 months, a full Corporal 11 months later and a Sergeant in July 1906.
In March 1908 he enlisted into the newly formed London Division Electrical Engineers and became Company Sergeant Major four months later. He is known to have re-enlisted for a further year in February 1909, but what happened after that year is a slight mystery.
By then he had been appointed manger of the Deal and District Motor Omnibus Co, so may well have only been a part-time soldier from 1907. He remained with the TA until 1916, and although he signed general service papers to say he was prepared to serve abroad at the end of February that year, in March he was demobilised.
By then of course he was in Birmingham as Chief Engineer to the BMMO Co, having come with the return of motorised bus operation using Tilling – Stevens vehicles as has been detailed already, his residence at that time being at 233 Hagley Road, Edgbaston.
The 1920 electoral roll shows him at 331 Hagley Road, the first house north-west of Hagley Road station on the Harborne railway branch, lodging at that time with George Granville Clarke and his wife Ethel May Clarke nee Lewin (who was from Leicester and had previously been married to a John Lindsay Wood).
Clarke became a traffic manager with the Potteries Motor Traction company, obviously living away from home, as on his death in 1926 he was buried at Berkswich parish church, Baswich Lane, Weeping Cross, Stafford. L.G.W. Shire and the widow Ethel Clarke married in 1928 and remain together to this day (see later).
I am not going to detail Shire’s bus designs here, suffice it to say they were the ‘rocket science’ of the day culminating with the REC (rear engined chassis), the forerunner of most bus design today. He was a difficult man to work with, feared and at the same time respected by the men under him, but one whose stubbornness and eccentricity finally got to his superiors, and he was retired at the very early age of 55 in April 1940, and the death of his wife Ethel from cancer in 1947 must have come as a devastating blow to him. She had been at the Astoria Nursing home, Llandrillo yn Rhos, Colwyn Bay at the time and was buried at St Tudno’s Church, Llandudno. It is understood the couple often holidayed in that area.
L.G.W.Shire remained at 331 Hagley Road, a difficult and unapproachable man who was often seen leaning on his front gate ‘watching his buses go past’. It must have pained him greatly when his successor, Donald Sinclair, has the ‘SOS’ emblems removed from the bus radiators, replacing it in some cases with ‘BMMO’ badges.
The great man died of dementure at the end of January 1963 at Rubery Mental Hospital, his home for the last few months of his life. His death was registered by James Lindsay Wood, Ethel’s son by her first marriage, and at his own wishes his body was cremated and his ashes interred in the grave of his wife Ethel (who for some unknown reason he called by the pet name of ‘Peter’) in Llandudno.
I think the time has come to tell the story of the two most important men in Midland Red’s history – Chief Engineer L.G. Wyndham Shire and traffic manager O. C. Power.
It is said that these two men disliked each other with such intensity that even lowly clerks from their respective departments risked instant dismissal for straying into the office corridor of the other’s – yet their dynamic personalities are what put the company in the position it once held – the largest bus operator in vehicle numbers outside of London Transport, and one whose area of operations stretched from Shrewsbury to Banbury, and from Hereford to Leicester.
Loftus George Wyndham Shire was born on January 3rd 1885 at 82 Norwood Road, Norwood, Lambeth, Surrey.He was the fourth of six children to Robert Walter Shire (1845 - ?) of Gurteen, Castlecomer, Co Kilkenny, Ireland, and Caroline Josephine Amelia Queely (1853 - ?) of Dublin, Ireland, who married in Portsea, Hampshire in 1879. In the 1881 census, the Shires were living with Caroline’s mother Emily Jesse Queely whose occupation is shown as ‘Income from dividends and returns’ at 1 Waverley Villas, Waverley Road, Southsea, Portsmouth. Robert Shire’s occupation is ‘City Manager of the Investment Registry and Stock Exchange Limited’, so I think we can deduce they were a fairly wealthy family.
By 1891 the family, now including Loftus Shire, was at 20 Avenue Road, Croydon, Surrey, and in 1901 they were at Willow Grange, Half Moon Lane, Camberwell, London. Robert Shire’s occupation is given as simply ‘Secretary of public company’ in these last two documents, so the family retained its position and wealth. Loftus George in 1901 is a ‘Clerk and civil engineering pupil’ and in November 1903 he became a voluntary sapper in the army, rising quickly to become a Lieutenant Corporal after 13 months, a full Corporal 11 months later and a Sergeant in July 1906.
In March 1908 he enlisted into the newly formed London Division Electrical Engineers and became Company Sergeant Major four months later. He is known to have re-enlisted for a further year in February 1909, but what happened after that year is a slight mystery.
By then he had been appointed manger of the Deal and District Motor Omnibus Co, so may well have only been a part-time soldier from 1907. He remained with the TA until 1916, and although he signed general service papers to say he was prepared to serve abroad at the end of February that year, in March he was demobilised.
By then of course he was in Birmingham as Chief Engineer to the BMMO Co, having come with the return of motorised bus operation using Tilling – Stevens vehicles as has been detailed already, his residence at that time being at 233 Hagley Road, Edgbaston.
The 1920 electoral roll shows him at 331 Hagley Road, the first house north-west of Hagley Road station on the Harborne railway branch, lodging at that time with George Granville Clarke and his wife Ethel May Clarke nee Lewin (who was from Leicester and had previously been married to a John Lindsay Wood).
Clarke became a traffic manager with the Potteries Motor Traction company, obviously living away from home, as on his death in 1926 he was buried at Berkswich parish church, Baswich Lane, Weeping Cross, Stafford. L.G.W. Shire and the widow Ethel Clarke married in 1928 and remain together to this day (see later).
I am not going to detail Shire’s bus designs here, suffice it to say they were the ‘rocket science’ of the day culminating with the REC (rear engined chassis), the forerunner of most bus design today. He was a difficult man to work with, feared and at the same time respected by the men under him, but one whose stubbornness and eccentricity finally got to his superiors, and he was retired at the very early age of 55 in April 1940, and the death of his wife Ethel from cancer in 1947 must have come as a devastating blow to him. She had been at the Astoria Nursing home, Llandrillo yn Rhos, Colwyn Bay at the time and was buried at St Tudno’s Church, Llandudno. It is understood the couple often holidayed in that area.
L.G.W.Shire remained at 331 Hagley Road, a difficult and unapproachable man who was often seen leaning on his front gate ‘watching his buses go past’. It must have pained him greatly when his successor, Donald Sinclair, has the ‘SOS’ emblems removed from the bus radiators, replacing it in some cases with ‘BMMO’ badges.
The great man died of dementure at the end of January 1963 at Rubery Mental Hospital, his home for the last few months of his life. His death was registered by James Lindsay Wood, Ethel’s son by her first marriage, and at his own wishes his body was cremated and his ashes interred in the grave of his wife Ethel (who for some unknown reason he called by the pet name of ‘Peter’) in Llandudno.
Lloyd
master brummie
Orlando Cecil Power was born July 24 1879, at the family home ‘Boscabel’, 67 Woodfield Road, Kings Heath, Birmingham, to parents Samuel Richard Power (1849-1903), a gun engraver, and Caroline Eliza Power nee Wilton (1649-1890, one of the Erdington Wilton family after whom a road and the market is named) who married in the summer of 1873. (This may tie in with the previous discussion about gunmaker William Wellington Greener, also from Erdington.)
The couple had ten children, Orlando being the fourth.
After Caroline’s death Samuel quickly remarried, to Gertrude Elizabeth Rorke, and they had four children. After the last, Felix Brannock Power who strangely was born in Devon, the couple separated and divorced in 1903. Gertrude apparently remarried soon after, in Devon, but reputedly died in 1904.
On 27th September 1899, the Birmingham General Omnibus Co Ltd was founded and OCP, at only age 20, was the secretary.
By 1901 OCP is still ‘secretary, bus co.’ in the census, and BGOC was soon bought up by the growing BET tramway empire. When the decision was taken to combine the tramway companies’ bus operations (and fledgling motor bus experiments) into one company, the extant Birmingham and Midland Motor Omnibus Company was the ideal ‘vehicle’ and OCP the choice for traffic manager.
On September 9th 1904 he had married Evelyn Maud Beech (b.1878) who was the daughter of Thomas Beech (1846-1912, a chemist and druggist) and Ada Louisa Ann Beech nee Parkin, and who in 1881 lived at the family home of 71 Mary St, Balsall Heath.
By 1891 the Beeches were at Thomas’s chemist shop, 149 High St, Kings Heath, a short walk from Woodfield Road. The marriage was at All Saints, Kings Heath.
In 1911 the couple were at 160 Hagley Road, Edgbaston and by 1920 had moved to the quieter address of 34 Vernon Road, Edgbaston, where they remained until OCP’s death in Westminster hospital on October 14th 1943, following a stroke (? I think) during a meeting of the Public Transport Association. The couple had no children, and Mrs Power continued to live at the Vernon Rd address for some time afterwards.
The Powers used to take holidays abroad, early ones traceable by ship passenger lists.
A 1928 sailing to Marseilles, possibly for the French Riviera, was followed later that year by a voyage to Madeira, journeys that were repeated in 1929. 1930/1 each saw two sailings to Marseilles, then in 1932 after one Marseilles trip they took a second overseas holiday, London to Port Said, Egypt, possibly on an excursion to see the pyramids which departed London 1st September on board the P & O vessel “Rajputana” which was bound (finally) for Yokohama, Japan.
One trip to Marseilles in 1933 and two in 1934 end their traceable journeys abroad – either they stopped or (more possibly) took to air travel.
Orlando Cecil Power was appointed managing director of Black & White Motorways Ltd-possibly on 30th April 1930, upon takeover by BMMO, and also had directorships of the following companies:
Trent Motor Traction Co Ltd
Potteries Motor Traction Co Ltd
W C Standerwick (Blackpool) Ltd
Joseph Bracewell Ltd
Wood Brothers Ltd
North Warwickshire Motor Traction Co Ltd.
He was also chairman of:
Birmingham Horse and Motor Vehicle Owners Association
Birmingham & District section of Institute of Transport
And vice-chairman of:
Birmingham Safety First Council
West Midlands section of the Roads Improvement Association.
He was also a JP (Justice of the Peace), sorry date unkown.
Research of the family tree has brought contact from a distant relative, who said that he was known to them (particularly the younger ones) as ‘Uncle Buddha’!
The couple had ten children, Orlando being the fourth.
After Caroline’s death Samuel quickly remarried, to Gertrude Elizabeth Rorke, and they had four children. After the last, Felix Brannock Power who strangely was born in Devon, the couple separated and divorced in 1903. Gertrude apparently remarried soon after, in Devon, but reputedly died in 1904.
On 27th September 1899, the Birmingham General Omnibus Co Ltd was founded and OCP, at only age 20, was the secretary.
By 1901 OCP is still ‘secretary, bus co.’ in the census, and BGOC was soon bought up by the growing BET tramway empire. When the decision was taken to combine the tramway companies’ bus operations (and fledgling motor bus experiments) into one company, the extant Birmingham and Midland Motor Omnibus Company was the ideal ‘vehicle’ and OCP the choice for traffic manager.
On September 9th 1904 he had married Evelyn Maud Beech (b.1878) who was the daughter of Thomas Beech (1846-1912, a chemist and druggist) and Ada Louisa Ann Beech nee Parkin, and who in 1881 lived at the family home of 71 Mary St, Balsall Heath.
By 1891 the Beeches were at Thomas’s chemist shop, 149 High St, Kings Heath, a short walk from Woodfield Road. The marriage was at All Saints, Kings Heath.
In 1911 the couple were at 160 Hagley Road, Edgbaston and by 1920 had moved to the quieter address of 34 Vernon Road, Edgbaston, where they remained until OCP’s death in Westminster hospital on October 14th 1943, following a stroke (? I think) during a meeting of the Public Transport Association. The couple had no children, and Mrs Power continued to live at the Vernon Rd address for some time afterwards.
The Powers used to take holidays abroad, early ones traceable by ship passenger lists.
A 1928 sailing to Marseilles, possibly for the French Riviera, was followed later that year by a voyage to Madeira, journeys that were repeated in 1929. 1930/1 each saw two sailings to Marseilles, then in 1932 after one Marseilles trip they took a second overseas holiday, London to Port Said, Egypt, possibly on an excursion to see the pyramids which departed London 1st September on board the P & O vessel “Rajputana” which was bound (finally) for Yokohama, Japan.
One trip to Marseilles in 1933 and two in 1934 end their traceable journeys abroad – either they stopped or (more possibly) took to air travel.
Orlando Cecil Power was appointed managing director of Black & White Motorways Ltd-possibly on 30th April 1930, upon takeover by BMMO, and also had directorships of the following companies:
Trent Motor Traction Co Ltd
Potteries Motor Traction Co Ltd
W C Standerwick (Blackpool) Ltd
Joseph Bracewell Ltd
Wood Brothers Ltd
North Warwickshire Motor Traction Co Ltd.
He was also chairman of:
Birmingham Horse and Motor Vehicle Owners Association
Birmingham & District section of Institute of Transport
And vice-chairman of:
Birmingham Safety First Council
West Midlands section of the Roads Improvement Association.
He was also a JP (Justice of the Peace), sorry date unkown.
Research of the family tree has brought contact from a distant relative, who said that he was known to them (particularly the younger ones) as ‘Uncle Buddha’!
Thylacine
master brummie
Thanks for those wonderful biographies Lloyd!
I've read somewhere this anecdote about the origins of the feud between Power and Shire.
Soon after Shire's employment with Midland Red he was buying some cigars and got to talking with the shopkeeper about his new job. "Yes, chief engineer" he said, "And I'm soon going to be general manager". Word of this got back to "Uncle Buddha", who took an instant dislike to jumped-up "Johnny-come-Lately" Wyndham Shire.
Also I've read about that door between the Midland Red traffic and engineering departments (I think in Charles Klapper's Golden Age of Buses).
Thanks for all your impressive research.
I've read somewhere this anecdote about the origins of the feud between Power and Shire.
Soon after Shire's employment with Midland Red he was buying some cigars and got to talking with the shopkeeper about his new job. "Yes, chief engineer" he said, "And I'm soon going to be general manager". Word of this got back to "Uncle Buddha", who took an instant dislike to jumped-up "Johnny-come-Lately" Wyndham Shire.
Also I've read about that door between the Midland Red traffic and engineering departments (I think in Charles Klapper's Golden Age of Buses).
Thanks for all your impressive research.
Thylacine
master brummie
2010-04-01 03:09:27
Charles F Klapper (29 March 1905 – 1980). The Golden Age of Buses. London: Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1978 (paperback 1984). Pages 114-115 (accessed via Google Books):
"Equally strong characters had occupied the chair of the chief engineer at an earlier date – the feud between the Irish traffic manager Orlando Cecil Power and fiery L G Wyndham Shire was well-known throughout the industry; the story of one celebrated occasion was that Power said in a report to the chairman that the capacity of the Rugby garage was 40 more than Shire thought reasonable. To prove his point Shire took the wheels off 40 of the fleet and next morning the traffic staff arrived to find 40 of the buses standing on barrels!
"There was a green-baize-coloured door between the traffic and engineering sides of the headquarters at Bearwood like the portals of servants’ quarters in a Victorian country house and woe betide any junior member of staff who essayed any liaison between the departments. Even I as a visitor from the technical press had to prove to Power the first time I met him that I had no intention (on that occasion at any rate!) of doing an article about those infamous engineers.
"It all arose back in 1912 when Shire arrived as a brash young chief engineer from the Deal branch of the company. When he wanted to order some cigars and to prove he was credit-worthy told the tobacconist that he was chief engineer of BMMO and might even be made general manager before long. Power heard about it the next day, thought the worst, and never ceased to devise schemes to deflate Shire’s self-conceit. It was not alleviated until the Second World War when Shire resigned and was replaced by Donald Sinclair, the brilliant Scot who and been assistant chief engineer of the Northern General group for whom he had designed side-engined vehicles. On Power’s death in 1943 – literally in harness, at a meeting of the Public Transport Association – Sinclair became general manager."
Note added by Thylacine. Klapper’s book is a wonderfully anecdotal largely first-hand account of the bus industry starting with the horse era. He’s not always accurate in his details though. For example he refers to Power as Irish, but it was Shire who was of Irish extraction. Power was pure Brum born and bred! [Klapper was (with Charles Edward Lee) founder of the Omnibus Society in 1929.]
Charles F Klapper (29 March 1905 – 1980). The Golden Age of Buses. London: Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1978 (paperback 1984). Pages 114-115 (accessed via Google Books):
"Equally strong characters had occupied the chair of the chief engineer at an earlier date – the feud between the Irish traffic manager Orlando Cecil Power and fiery L G Wyndham Shire was well-known throughout the industry; the story of one celebrated occasion was that Power said in a report to the chairman that the capacity of the Rugby garage was 40 more than Shire thought reasonable. To prove his point Shire took the wheels off 40 of the fleet and next morning the traffic staff arrived to find 40 of the buses standing on barrels!
"There was a green-baize-coloured door between the traffic and engineering sides of the headquarters at Bearwood like the portals of servants’ quarters in a Victorian country house and woe betide any junior member of staff who essayed any liaison between the departments. Even I as a visitor from the technical press had to prove to Power the first time I met him that I had no intention (on that occasion at any rate!) of doing an article about those infamous engineers.
"It all arose back in 1912 when Shire arrived as a brash young chief engineer from the Deal branch of the company. When he wanted to order some cigars and to prove he was credit-worthy told the tobacconist that he was chief engineer of BMMO and might even be made general manager before long. Power heard about it the next day, thought the worst, and never ceased to devise schemes to deflate Shire’s self-conceit. It was not alleviated until the Second World War when Shire resigned and was replaced by Donald Sinclair, the brilliant Scot who and been assistant chief engineer of the Northern General group for whom he had designed side-engined vehicles. On Power’s death in 1943 – literally in harness, at a meeting of the Public Transport Association – Sinclair became general manager."
Note added by Thylacine. Klapper’s book is a wonderfully anecdotal largely first-hand account of the bus industry starting with the horse era. He’s not always accurate in his details though. For example he refers to Power as Irish, but it was Shire who was of Irish extraction. Power was pure Brum born and bred! [Klapper was (with Charles Edward Lee) founder of the Omnibus Society in 1929.]
Lloyd
master brummie
Yes, I've heard the shopkeeper story too.
Sadly Donald Sinclair was not a replacement for those two, despite his engineering skills (having come from Northern General, where he and (can't remember his name - Haylor??) were responsible for the NGT SE4 and SE6 models, side engined buses using similar principles to the AEC Q type (AEC actually supplied the NGT chassis frames).
He and the managment board failed to see the onset of passenger loss to the private car in post-WW2 Britain, taking too long to offer greater incentives to customers and discounts for return and seasonal tickets, for instance. In the bus industry, once you've lost a customer, they're gone forever.
Although various post-war buses ran on demonstration to other companies in the BET group, Midland Red's manufacturing capabilities were not up to mass production, although premises at Pensnett were purchased towards that end. As the decades passed and passenger figures continued dwindling, the cost of developing and building their own vehicles became prohibitive. It has been quoted that when design and development costs were taken into account, the real cost of the 1960s D9 type double decker were such that two Leyland PD3s could have been bought for the cost of one D9, and as for the D10, well, brilliant achievement as it was (an underfloor-engined double decker, previously deemed impossible by the mainstream manufacturers) it was never going to repay its development costs. The company failed to see the coming of one man double deck operation for which this vehicle would have been ideally suited, and had committed to building the final batches of D9 which was obsolete before its time, being of the old 'engine at the front alongside the driver' design. Engineering staff were difficult to recruit and hold, there being so many motor factories in the midlands where much higher wages could be earned. Eventually as staff levels dwindled after the announcement of end of production was made, the final batches of D9 and S23 had to be finished by outside coachbuilders, adding to the cost.
There did reman a small design, development and experimental department at Carlyle Road, who masterminded design improvements to the Leyland Leopard and Daimler Fleetline vehicles which became the new standard, as well as the conversion of Ford buses into 'Midibuses', half way between a minibus and a full sized one, by shortening them considerably. Some of these conversions were done for other companies too, and a few Bedfords were done as well.
The design of the Leyland 'Lynx' was partly done at Midland Red, adapting the Leyland National concept for a new generation of vehicles. The 'S14' style sloped windscreen is a clue there!
Finally the works was involved inthe conversion of Transit-type vans into minibuses, and later construction of bodies for these and Dennis Dart single deckers until under privatised ownership, the owners of Carlyle Engineering as Midland Red Engineering had become realised that there was more value in the land the works stood on than could be made inside it, and the place was closed and a final auction sale of tools and equipment was held in the now-empty halls where hundreds of Midland Red buses had been constructed and overhauled. I went along, and a truly sad day it was.
The site is now an upmarket housing estate, with no reference to the history of the ground, even in the road names.
A present day Carlyle Engineering has risen from the ashes, based at West Bromwich and acting as a vehicle repairer and parts dealer, the same beat from a newer heart.
Sadly Donald Sinclair was not a replacement for those two, despite his engineering skills (having come from Northern General, where he and (can't remember his name - Haylor??) were responsible for the NGT SE4 and SE6 models, side engined buses using similar principles to the AEC Q type (AEC actually supplied the NGT chassis frames).
He and the managment board failed to see the onset of passenger loss to the private car in post-WW2 Britain, taking too long to offer greater incentives to customers and discounts for return and seasonal tickets, for instance. In the bus industry, once you've lost a customer, they're gone forever.
Although various post-war buses ran on demonstration to other companies in the BET group, Midland Red's manufacturing capabilities were not up to mass production, although premises at Pensnett were purchased towards that end. As the decades passed and passenger figures continued dwindling, the cost of developing and building their own vehicles became prohibitive. It has been quoted that when design and development costs were taken into account, the real cost of the 1960s D9 type double decker were such that two Leyland PD3s could have been bought for the cost of one D9, and as for the D10, well, brilliant achievement as it was (an underfloor-engined double decker, previously deemed impossible by the mainstream manufacturers) it was never going to repay its development costs. The company failed to see the coming of one man double deck operation for which this vehicle would have been ideally suited, and had committed to building the final batches of D9 which was obsolete before its time, being of the old 'engine at the front alongside the driver' design. Engineering staff were difficult to recruit and hold, there being so many motor factories in the midlands where much higher wages could be earned. Eventually as staff levels dwindled after the announcement of end of production was made, the final batches of D9 and S23 had to be finished by outside coachbuilders, adding to the cost.
There did reman a small design, development and experimental department at Carlyle Road, who masterminded design improvements to the Leyland Leopard and Daimler Fleetline vehicles which became the new standard, as well as the conversion of Ford buses into 'Midibuses', half way between a minibus and a full sized one, by shortening them considerably. Some of these conversions were done for other companies too, and a few Bedfords were done as well.
The design of the Leyland 'Lynx' was partly done at Midland Red, adapting the Leyland National concept for a new generation of vehicles. The 'S14' style sloped windscreen is a clue there!
Finally the works was involved inthe conversion of Transit-type vans into minibuses, and later construction of bodies for these and Dennis Dart single deckers until under privatised ownership, the owners of Carlyle Engineering as Midland Red Engineering had become realised that there was more value in the land the works stood on than could be made inside it, and the place was closed and a final auction sale of tools and equipment was held in the now-empty halls where hundreds of Midland Red buses had been constructed and overhauled. I went along, and a truly sad day it was.
The site is now an upmarket housing estate, with no reference to the history of the ground, even in the road names.
A present day Carlyle Engineering has risen from the ashes, based at West Bromwich and acting as a vehicle repairer and parts dealer, the same beat from a newer heart.
Thylacine
master brummie
Sad (but not uncommon) story of a gradual decline from greatness to ashes, Lloyd. Frictional though it was (and the friction probably helped), the combination of the engineering talent of Shire and the sound business sense of Power (under the calm guiding hand of chairman Howley) led to the brilliant success of Midland Red from its beginning to the end of World War 2. In the 1930s alone Midland Red absorbed (wholly or partially) some 200 other bus operations in the Midlands.
Thylacine
master brummie
2010-04-01 08:32:01
1913 Tilling-Stevens TS3 Demonstrator (registered KT610 / OA5711).
This smart looking bus is pictured in Midland Red Volume 1 (page 6 left) and captioned: "KT610, a Tilling-Stevens TS3 demonstration bus with Allen 34-seat body, proved most successful in earning sales for its manufacturer. It demonstrated for BMMO in 1913." Strange to say, this vehicle does not appear to get a mention in Hardy’s BMMO Volume 1. However the story of its later life is found in Peter Gould’s Birmingham Corporation Transport (BCT) fleet list (https://www.petergould.co.uk/local_transport_history/fleetlists/birmingham6.htm). The bus became BCT fleet number 30 (having exchanged its Maidstone registration for OA5711) in 1914 (Peter Gould includes it with O8200-8212 and O9913-9929 as "ex-BMMO 1914" so it might be part of the "Birmingham Agreement"). We get a few more details from the BCT fleet list: chassis number 325; Allen O18/16RO body; received second-hand Brush O18/16RO body from one of O8200-8212 in 1917; received Dodson O18/15RO body from one of OB1569-1574 or OB2101-2103 in 1922; withdrawn 1926.
Is anything more known about the bodybuilder Allen? Any relation to the Allen Brothers who originally owned A82 (OB1111)?. Or to William Percival "Percy" Allen of the Allen Omnibus Co Ltd (London) who ran buses in Kidderminster from November 1913 (establishing the Kidderminster Stourport & Bewdley Motor Omnibus Co Ltd for the purpose on 11 December 1913) and a bus service in Shrewsbury (taken over by Midland Red on 1 April 1916)? Or to Allen of Brigg who built B14F bodies for Stratford Blue fleet numbers 1-7 (registered UE3403, UE3897, UE4189, UE4664-4665 and UE4933-4934) in 1927?
1913 Tilling-Stevens TS3 Demonstrator (registered KT610 / OA5711).
This smart looking bus is pictured in Midland Red Volume 1 (page 6 left) and captioned: "KT610, a Tilling-Stevens TS3 demonstration bus with Allen 34-seat body, proved most successful in earning sales for its manufacturer. It demonstrated for BMMO in 1913." Strange to say, this vehicle does not appear to get a mention in Hardy’s BMMO Volume 1. However the story of its later life is found in Peter Gould’s Birmingham Corporation Transport (BCT) fleet list (https://www.petergould.co.uk/local_transport_history/fleetlists/birmingham6.htm). The bus became BCT fleet number 30 (having exchanged its Maidstone registration for OA5711) in 1914 (Peter Gould includes it with O8200-8212 and O9913-9929 as "ex-BMMO 1914" so it might be part of the "Birmingham Agreement"). We get a few more details from the BCT fleet list: chassis number 325; Allen O18/16RO body; received second-hand Brush O18/16RO body from one of O8200-8212 in 1917; received Dodson O18/15RO body from one of OB1569-1574 or OB2101-2103 in 1922; withdrawn 1926.
Is anything more known about the bodybuilder Allen? Any relation to the Allen Brothers who originally owned A82 (OB1111)?. Or to William Percival "Percy" Allen of the Allen Omnibus Co Ltd (London) who ran buses in Kidderminster from November 1913 (establishing the Kidderminster Stourport & Bewdley Motor Omnibus Co Ltd for the purpose on 11 December 1913) and a bus service in Shrewsbury (taken over by Midland Red on 1 April 1916)? Or to Allen of Brigg who built B14F bodies for Stratford Blue fleet numbers 1-7 (registered UE3403, UE3897, UE4189, UE4664-4665 and UE4933-4934) in 1927?
Lloyd
master brummie
Afterlife.
The Tilling-Stevens TTA1 double deckers that passed to Birmingham Corporation under the 1914 agreement were terribly underpowered, so their bodies went onto new Tilling TS3 chassis. Five of the TTA1s were then given Brush B29R bodies, less weight to carry. Later the new TS3s had the original ex-BMMO bodies replaced by these single deck ones, and the underpowered chassis were disposed of.
Here’s former Midland Red O 8211 with a new body, and then one of the same bodies as transferred to the TS3s later.
The Tilling-Stevens TTA1 double deckers that passed to Birmingham Corporation under the 1914 agreement were terribly underpowered, so their bodies went onto new Tilling TS3 chassis. Five of the TTA1s were then given Brush B29R bodies, less weight to carry. Later the new TS3s had the original ex-BMMO bodies replaced by these single deck ones, and the underpowered chassis were disposed of.
Here’s former Midland Red O 8211 with a new body, and then one of the same bodies as transferred to the TS3s later.
Thylacine
master brummie
2010-04-01 11:04:55
The Birmingham Agreement (14 February 1914).
[In post #84 above, Lloyd discusses the services, buses and Tennant St garage transferred by Midland Red to Birmingham Corporation in 1914. I thought it would be useful to set out the details of this significant transaction. As usual corrections, additions and comments are welcome.]
By 1910 Birmingham Corporation had the monopoly of tramways within the city and on 4 September 1913 (as stated in Midland Red Volume 1 but Hardy’s BMMO Volume 1 has 5 September) it commenced a tram service along Hagley Rd. Now the Birmingham Watch Committee forbade the simultaneous operation of trams and motor buses on any of the streets under its jurisdiction, so the Midland Red Hagley Rd service (one of its very earliest services) had to stop. This was the "writing on the wall" for Midland Red services within the city and negotiations were soon begun with the Corporation. The result was a legal agreement dated 14 February 1914 between BMMO and Birmingham Corporation which became known as the "Birmingham Agreement" and included the following terms:
1. The Corporation took over all Midland Red services operating wholly within the city, and Midland Red agreed not to run intra-city services in the future. Does anyone know what financial consideration was involved?
2. The Corporation purchased the Midland Red leasehold on the motor bus depot and offices at 65 Tennant St (with a capacity for 80 vehicles). Does anyone know the price?
3. The Corporation acquired 30 Midland Red motor buses (thirteen 1912 Tilling-Stevens TTA1s registered O8200-8212 and seventeen 1912 Tilling-Stevens TTA2s registered O9913-9929). These buses were to form the nucleus of the Birmingham Corporation Transport (BCT) motor bus fleet and were given BCT fleet numbers 0-29. As mentioned in post #103 above, BCT also acquired (as fleet number 30) a Tilling-Stevens TS3 demonstrator (registered OA5711) which had previously been used by Midland Red. Does anyone know how much was paid for the buses?
4. Midland Red was allowed to operate services between the city and points outside, provided protective fares were charged over sections coinciding with Corporation tram and motor bus routes.
5. The Corporation agreed not to operate services outside the city.
As Hardy states: "The Birmingham Agreement is recognized as a statesmanlike way of dealing with city and country traffic and has been adopted elsewhere. At the time of its negotiation it may perhaps have been regarded with somewhat mixed feelings, for Midland Red had to find another home and other sources of revenue." As it turned out, the agreement was the impetus Midland Red needed for expansion outside the city, forcing the company to live up to the "Midland" part of its name.
The Corporation didn’t actually gain statutory powers to operate motor omnibus services until later in 1914 (remember that it had been a passive onlooker during the 1911 negotiations with Daimler). So the Birmingham Agreement didn’t take effect until midnight on 3-4 October (as stated in Midland Red Volume 1 but BMMO Volume 1 has 4-5 October). Midland Red had introduced service numbers in October 1913 (starting with 2 since 1 had been reserved for the Hagley Rd service lost the previous month). In the spirit of the agreement Midland Red renumbered services 2-14 so that the Corporation could have those numbers, giving it plenty of room for expansion! For example service 8 (Smethwick Blue Gates – Rood End – Langley – Oldbury) became service 28.
Driven out of Tennant St depot, Midland Red relocated its remaining motor buses and offices to Bearwood.
Probably in anticipation of these developments, Midland Red’s first service beyond Birmingham had started on 24 December 1913 to Walsall (see post #26 above).
[It would be interesting to know if a copy of the Birmingham Agreement survives.]
The Birmingham Agreement (14 February 1914).
[In post #84 above, Lloyd discusses the services, buses and Tennant St garage transferred by Midland Red to Birmingham Corporation in 1914. I thought it would be useful to set out the details of this significant transaction. As usual corrections, additions and comments are welcome.]
By 1910 Birmingham Corporation had the monopoly of tramways within the city and on 4 September 1913 (as stated in Midland Red Volume 1 but Hardy’s BMMO Volume 1 has 5 September) it commenced a tram service along Hagley Rd. Now the Birmingham Watch Committee forbade the simultaneous operation of trams and motor buses on any of the streets under its jurisdiction, so the Midland Red Hagley Rd service (one of its very earliest services) had to stop. This was the "writing on the wall" for Midland Red services within the city and negotiations were soon begun with the Corporation. The result was a legal agreement dated 14 February 1914 between BMMO and Birmingham Corporation which became known as the "Birmingham Agreement" and included the following terms:
1. The Corporation took over all Midland Red services operating wholly within the city, and Midland Red agreed not to run intra-city services in the future. Does anyone know what financial consideration was involved?
2. The Corporation purchased the Midland Red leasehold on the motor bus depot and offices at 65 Tennant St (with a capacity for 80 vehicles). Does anyone know the price?
3. The Corporation acquired 30 Midland Red motor buses (thirteen 1912 Tilling-Stevens TTA1s registered O8200-8212 and seventeen 1912 Tilling-Stevens TTA2s registered O9913-9929). These buses were to form the nucleus of the Birmingham Corporation Transport (BCT) motor bus fleet and were given BCT fleet numbers 0-29. As mentioned in post #103 above, BCT also acquired (as fleet number 30) a Tilling-Stevens TS3 demonstrator (registered OA5711) which had previously been used by Midland Red. Does anyone know how much was paid for the buses?
4. Midland Red was allowed to operate services between the city and points outside, provided protective fares were charged over sections coinciding with Corporation tram and motor bus routes.
5. The Corporation agreed not to operate services outside the city.
As Hardy states: "The Birmingham Agreement is recognized as a statesmanlike way of dealing with city and country traffic and has been adopted elsewhere. At the time of its negotiation it may perhaps have been regarded with somewhat mixed feelings, for Midland Red had to find another home and other sources of revenue." As it turned out, the agreement was the impetus Midland Red needed for expansion outside the city, forcing the company to live up to the "Midland" part of its name.
The Corporation didn’t actually gain statutory powers to operate motor omnibus services until later in 1914 (remember that it had been a passive onlooker during the 1911 negotiations with Daimler). So the Birmingham Agreement didn’t take effect until midnight on 3-4 October (as stated in Midland Red Volume 1 but BMMO Volume 1 has 4-5 October). Midland Red had introduced service numbers in October 1913 (starting with 2 since 1 had been reserved for the Hagley Rd service lost the previous month). In the spirit of the agreement Midland Red renumbered services 2-14 so that the Corporation could have those numbers, giving it plenty of room for expansion! For example service 8 (Smethwick Blue Gates – Rood End – Langley – Oldbury) became service 28.
Driven out of Tennant St depot, Midland Red relocated its remaining motor buses and offices to Bearwood.
Probably in anticipation of these developments, Midland Red’s first service beyond Birmingham had started on 24 December 1913 to Walsall (see post #26 above).
[It would be interesting to know if a copy of the Birmingham Agreement survives.]
Lloyd
master brummie
Ah, well. There is a companion volume to the Midland Red pair, Birmingham City transport by Keeley, Russell and Grey - same publisher, same quality.
Thylacine
master brummie
2010-04-01 15:21:37
Puzzle Picture 4 (OK1310 TS3 chara looking a bit too "SOS").
[See Lloyd’s post #88 above.]
This picture was originally posted by Stitcher on the Midland Red at Digbeth thread (https://forum.birminghamhistory.co.uk/showthread.php?t=15474&page=20) along with two other very interesting pictures from 1954 and 1964. It is captioned "Gupwells shopfitters day out Park St Digbeth 1924". I think that would be A J Gupwell Ltd of 123 Bradford St. The sign partially visible at the top of the picture might be the beginning of "A J Gupwell". In which case might they be in Bradford St rather than Park St? Not necessarily, Gupwells might have had a branch in Park St. There’s a picture of the same vehicle taken a year or two earlier at Matlock in Midland Red Volume 1 (page 41 lower right).
I really like this picture for its human interest. Thirty passengers looking cheerful and "ready for the off". All blokes in their Sunday best (or is that a lady peeping out in the middle there?). And the driver and conductor looking … stoic. Is the uniformed man standing next to the chara a conductor – on a charabanc outing? No-one is hatless (a good variety of hats too). And one or two Hitler-style moustaches (Hitler can’t have been very well known in 1924 – in England at any rate). Terrific quality photograph – well focussed and exposed, just the right amount of contrast (yes I know we can fiddle with these things nowadays!). If that is a lady in the middle I wouldn’t want to be in her seat on the way home after the lads have had one or two at the usual "watering holes". Perhaps it’s a temperance outing!
Unusually with a charabanc shot the number plate is clearly visible. I agree with Lloyd as to the identification and all his notes. By the way Lloyd is TS3B the type it was converted to in 1925? I used to have TS3B in all my records but noticed that Midland Red Volume 1 (and Hardy’s BMMO Volume 1 for that matter) always just say B type. TS3B makes more sense. As to the SOS features you pointed out: if they were installed in 1925 that means the date on this picture is wrong. Otherwise I defer to your superior judgment on this subtle point.
Now the charabanc body is by Startin. As usual all the reference works give nor more than a bare surname for the bodybuilder. But I believe it to be Thomas Startin of Birmingham who was known as a motor car and hearse bodybuilder and later as an Austin dealer. I would love to know more about him and his firm. The pictures of OK1309 on page 41 (top and centre right) look as if they were taken at Startin’s works (as to the incorrectly painted fleetname, OE7313 – bottom left – has the same problem!).
I hope you’re following this thread Stitcher because we’re having a lot of fun with your picture!
Puzzle Picture 4 (OK1310 TS3 chara looking a bit too "SOS").
[See Lloyd’s post #88 above.]
This picture was originally posted by Stitcher on the Midland Red at Digbeth thread (https://forum.birminghamhistory.co.uk/showthread.php?t=15474&page=20) along with two other very interesting pictures from 1954 and 1964. It is captioned "Gupwells shopfitters day out Park St Digbeth 1924". I think that would be A J Gupwell Ltd of 123 Bradford St. The sign partially visible at the top of the picture might be the beginning of "A J Gupwell". In which case might they be in Bradford St rather than Park St? Not necessarily, Gupwells might have had a branch in Park St. There’s a picture of the same vehicle taken a year or two earlier at Matlock in Midland Red Volume 1 (page 41 lower right).
I really like this picture for its human interest. Thirty passengers looking cheerful and "ready for the off". All blokes in their Sunday best (or is that a lady peeping out in the middle there?). And the driver and conductor looking … stoic. Is the uniformed man standing next to the chara a conductor – on a charabanc outing? No-one is hatless (a good variety of hats too). And one or two Hitler-style moustaches (Hitler can’t have been very well known in 1924 – in England at any rate). Terrific quality photograph – well focussed and exposed, just the right amount of contrast (yes I know we can fiddle with these things nowadays!). If that is a lady in the middle I wouldn’t want to be in her seat on the way home after the lads have had one or two at the usual "watering holes". Perhaps it’s a temperance outing!
Unusually with a charabanc shot the number plate is clearly visible. I agree with Lloyd as to the identification and all his notes. By the way Lloyd is TS3B the type it was converted to in 1925? I used to have TS3B in all my records but noticed that Midland Red Volume 1 (and Hardy’s BMMO Volume 1 for that matter) always just say B type. TS3B makes more sense. As to the SOS features you pointed out: if they were installed in 1925 that means the date on this picture is wrong. Otherwise I defer to your superior judgment on this subtle point.
Now the charabanc body is by Startin. As usual all the reference works give nor more than a bare surname for the bodybuilder. But I believe it to be Thomas Startin of Birmingham who was known as a motor car and hearse bodybuilder and later as an Austin dealer. I would love to know more about him and his firm. The pictures of OK1309 on page 41 (top and centre right) look as if they were taken at Startin’s works (as to the incorrectly painted fleetname, OE7313 – bottom left – has the same problem!).
I hope you’re following this thread Stitcher because we’re having a lot of fun with your picture!
Thylacine
master brummie
The picture of OE7311 on page 40 (Midland Red Volume 1) also looks as if it was taken at Startin's works when new in 1922. I notice that Midland Red Volume 1 uses the strange plural "chars-a-banc" (a pedantic attempt to imitate the French perhaps). Actually the French version would be char-[FONT="]à[/FONT]-bancs (singular) and chars-[FONT="]à[/FONT]-bancs (plural) meaning "carriage(s) with benches". The hyphens are probably optional. But the English word is usually spelled "charabanc" (plural "charabancs") and commonly abbreviated to "chara" (pronounced sharrer). Language lesson over!?!?
Thylacine
master brummie
2010-04-01 18:00:47
Puzzle Picture 5 (Midland Red Volume 2 page 196 upper right).
This picture is captioned "BMMO ran many WD Tilling-Stevens TS3s with tilt van bodies … the unidentified lorry (above) was specially painted to advertise the commercial goods service". It is pictured from the nearside with a light-coloured enclosed top on which is painted the legend "MIDLAND RED COMMERCIAL MOTOR SERVICE" apparently in black with "RED" in red. Clearly visible on the cab side is the number 42 which must signify ancillary body number B42. In Hardy’s BMMO Volume 1 (page 114) we read: "In 1920, 36 chassis were purchased from the War Department (WD) … and the numbers B39-74 appear to have been allocated to the tilt van bodies of WD pattern mounted on these chassis. It is not known which body was delivered with which chassis and in any case they were probably interchanged to a considerable extent."
I would hazard a guess that B42 arrived on ex-WD TS3 fleet number A216 simply because B44 and B45 are known to have been on A236 and A237 and the ex-WD TS3s numerically prior to A236 are A213-217 which would neatly fit in with BB39-43. "Hazard" is the right word because we're on very shaky ground here (as you well know Lloyd). But it doesn't matter in this case because whatever chassis B42 arrived on in 1920 it didn’t stay there long.
Hardy's A number list traces the later history of B42. In 1921 it was mounted on A239 (ex-WD TS3 chassis number 923) and given registration OE7311 (previously on A278 – another ex-WD TS3 – for a short period). Hardy says "by 1921" but A278 only gave up OE7311 in 1921. A239 was re-registered OK1316 (a new registration) in 1922 when OE7311 was transferred to A233 (new TS3 chassis number 1760 with body C15 Startin Ch32). Now came one of those delightful switcheroos which are so confusing to the unwary! In 1925 A239 and A233 exchanged bodies and registrations (the registrations staying with the bodies as is so often – but not always – the case). C15 was mounted on A239 which became OE7311 (again) and lasted until broken up in 1928. B42 was converted to a breakdown van before being mounted on A233 which became OK1316. The A233 / B42 combination stayed together until withdrawn in 1928 (the chassis was sold in 1930 when breakdown van body B42 was broken up).
Back to Puzzle Picture 5. Based on the above history of B42 it must have been taken before the 1925 conversion to a breakdown van. So it must be on A239. I also think the lorry pictured is carrying the registration OE7311 (you can almost make it out on the dash). This means that the picture is of A239 seen in 1921-1922. Probably in 1921 when B42 was installed (with its new fancy top). If the registration is OK1316 that would date the picture to the period 1922-1925 (but then why was the picture taken?).
Puzzle solved? Over to you Lloyd.
[Sorry folks I don’t have a scanner.]
Puzzle Picture 5 (Midland Red Volume 2 page 196 upper right).
This picture is captioned "BMMO ran many WD Tilling-Stevens TS3s with tilt van bodies … the unidentified lorry (above) was specially painted to advertise the commercial goods service". It is pictured from the nearside with a light-coloured enclosed top on which is painted the legend "MIDLAND RED COMMERCIAL MOTOR SERVICE" apparently in black with "RED" in red. Clearly visible on the cab side is the number 42 which must signify ancillary body number B42. In Hardy’s BMMO Volume 1 (page 114) we read: "In 1920, 36 chassis were purchased from the War Department (WD) … and the numbers B39-74 appear to have been allocated to the tilt van bodies of WD pattern mounted on these chassis. It is not known which body was delivered with which chassis and in any case they were probably interchanged to a considerable extent."
I would hazard a guess that B42 arrived on ex-WD TS3 fleet number A216 simply because B44 and B45 are known to have been on A236 and A237 and the ex-WD TS3s numerically prior to A236 are A213-217 which would neatly fit in with BB39-43. "Hazard" is the right word because we're on very shaky ground here (as you well know Lloyd). But it doesn't matter in this case because whatever chassis B42 arrived on in 1920 it didn’t stay there long.
Hardy's A number list traces the later history of B42. In 1921 it was mounted on A239 (ex-WD TS3 chassis number 923) and given registration OE7311 (previously on A278 – another ex-WD TS3 – for a short period). Hardy says "by 1921" but A278 only gave up OE7311 in 1921. A239 was re-registered OK1316 (a new registration) in 1922 when OE7311 was transferred to A233 (new TS3 chassis number 1760 with body C15 Startin Ch32). Now came one of those delightful switcheroos which are so confusing to the unwary! In 1925 A239 and A233 exchanged bodies and registrations (the registrations staying with the bodies as is so often – but not always – the case). C15 was mounted on A239 which became OE7311 (again) and lasted until broken up in 1928. B42 was converted to a breakdown van before being mounted on A233 which became OK1316. The A233 / B42 combination stayed together until withdrawn in 1928 (the chassis was sold in 1930 when breakdown van body B42 was broken up).
Back to Puzzle Picture 5. Based on the above history of B42 it must have been taken before the 1925 conversion to a breakdown van. So it must be on A239. I also think the lorry pictured is carrying the registration OE7311 (you can almost make it out on the dash). This means that the picture is of A239 seen in 1921-1922. Probably in 1921 when B42 was installed (with its new fancy top). If the registration is OK1316 that would date the picture to the period 1922-1925 (but then why was the picture taken?).
Puzzle solved? Over to you Lloyd.
[Sorry folks I don’t have a scanner.]
Thylacine
master brummie
Incidentally there's a picture of ex-NWMOT TS3 charabanc E1843 in Midland Red Volume 1 (page 33 top centre). It is set in Seymour St (Birmingham) in 1923. On the wall of a building in the background can be seen an advertisement for Midland "Red" Commercial Motor Services. Almost the same as the name on the van in Puzzle Picture 5. It seems that in this period this was the title used rather than the commonly accepted Commercial Goods Services.
Lloyd
master brummie
One other point about the chara in #88. Yes the white-coated man standing at the side is the conductor - they were used on all coach operations until post WW2 years, although latterly usually one per 'job' or service rather than one per vehicle. He is standing by the only offside door, the one to 'his' seat, temporarily taken by a passenger for the photograph to be taken. This seat was divided from the others in the row by an 'armrest'. His duties would include assisting the driver to erect the canvas 'hood' if the weather changed: assisting passengers on and off the vehicle; and in the case of excursions or long-distance services, collecting fares or tickets.
In this 1925 photo of an SOS 'FS' chara, the handle and hinges of the condutor's door can be seen either side of the fleetname letter 'I'. Although he can't be seen, doubtless there was one on this ladies outing private hire - lucky man!
In this 1925 photo of an SOS 'FS' chara, the handle and hinges of the condutor's door can be seen either side of the fleetname letter 'I'. Although he can't be seen, doubtless there was one on this ladies outing private hire - lucky man!
Thylacine
master brummie
2010-04-01 19:44:01
I’m taking a break from bus numerology and witchcraft for a while. Here are two of my favourite internet pictures with Midland Red themes:
I’m so happy (Blackheath 1969): https://www.flickr.com/photos/co-ophistory/2863269349/sizes/o/in/set-72157607603038289/.
Someone should rescue this clock (Angel Place Worcester 2007): https://www.flickr.com/photos/lodekka/3292334587/in/pool-828234@N20.
Both pictures are right-clickable.
[Thanks Lloyd for clearing that up about the charabanc conductors with their special door and seat (and uniform). Are you sure they didn’t call themselves “stewards” or “attendants” or “personal service operatives”?]
I’m taking a break from bus numerology and witchcraft for a while. Here are two of my favourite internet pictures with Midland Red themes:
I’m so happy (Blackheath 1969): https://www.flickr.com/photos/co-ophistory/2863269349/sizes/o/in/set-72157607603038289/.
Someone should rescue this clock (Angel Place Worcester 2007): https://www.flickr.com/photos/lodekka/3292334587/in/pool-828234@N20.
Both pictures are right-clickable.
[Thanks Lloyd for clearing that up about the charabanc conductors with their special door and seat (and uniform). Are you sure they didn’t call themselves “stewards” or “attendants” or “personal service operatives”?]
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Thylacine
master brummie
Excuse me for going on about this but I've seen somewhere that coachbuilder Thomas Startin Ltd of Birmingham started business in 1840! That must mean a dynasty rather than a one-man back-yard affair. With that snippet and the unusual name, surely some history buff on this forum can come up with the full company history (including the name of the pub he used to have his lunch at). I know, I know - it's startin to get borin.
Thylacine
master brummie
2010-04-01 20:32:38
Thomas Startin Jnr Ltd.
Startin Group Ltd still exists (based at Redditch) as a car dealership but no longer connected with the Startin family. Their website is here (https://www.startingroup.co.uk/startin.html). I quote:
"Long before the advent of the motor car the original Thomas Startin set up his business as a coach builder in 1840. Thomas Startin Jnr Ltd was owned by the Startin family up until 1987 when the Directors who had been with the company since 1949 organised the purchase from the last living member of the Startin family. The acquisition took place to ensure the future continuity of this long established business which now trades as Startin Group Ltd."
There are two little pictures of the Startin works or showroom which you can blow up (a bit) but not download. Someone might recognize the premises or the location. Come on history buffs!
Thomas Startin Jnr Ltd.
Startin Group Ltd still exists (based at Redditch) as a car dealership but no longer connected with the Startin family. Their website is here (https://www.startingroup.co.uk/startin.html). I quote:
"Long before the advent of the motor car the original Thomas Startin set up his business as a coach builder in 1840. Thomas Startin Jnr Ltd was owned by the Startin family up until 1987 when the Directors who had been with the company since 1949 organised the purchase from the last living member of the Startin family. The acquisition took place to ensure the future continuity of this long established business which now trades as Startin Group Ltd."
There are two little pictures of the Startin works or showroom which you can blow up (a bit) but not download. Someone might recognize the premises or the location. Come on history buffs!
The lower picture downloaded for me ok. on trying to enlarge it I couldn't read the name of the road, but it could be holland road, which would fit with the 1890 Kellys listing of Thomas Startin junior below. I would guess the other Startin firms were related to him also.
Mike
Mike
Thylacine
master brummie
That's great Mike. Thanks for checking it out. I've been scanning the London Gazette but the trail runs cold in 1908 when the sons of Thomas Startin Junior dissolve their partnership. I'm really interested in the 1920s when Startin charabanc bodies were being made for Midland Red, but every piece of the jigsaw helps. I'll post the bits and pieces I've found tomorrow.
Lloyd
master brummie
This framework is the remains of one of Startins body shops, the rest was demolished to build the Tesco filling station (Bristol Rd, just past University entrance).
This building is on the site of Startins, Aston Rd North / Holland Road.
1911 census gives:
STARTIN Frederick William, widower, age 46, Coachbody Maker - worker (i.e.not own business) b. Birmingham
STARTIN Emma, daughter, age 16, b. Aston
STARTIN Thomas, son, age 14, Errand Boy, b. Aston
STARTIN Frederick, son, age 12, b. Aston
at 87 Vicarage Road, Aston Manor.
Frederick William Startin married Emma Woodbridge 3rd quarter 1885, Birmingham, vol 6d page 71.
1st child Elizabeth born c1886
In the 1901 census Frederick (39, a Carriage Builder), Emma (37) and children Elizabeth (15), Emma (6), Thomas (4) and Frederick W. (6 mths) are at 5 house 10 court Lichfield Road Aston.
Emma Startin died 3rd quarter 1907 aged 42. She had been a press worker.
There is also in the 1901 a 46 y.o., widowed, Birmingham born Francis Startin with four sons and one daughter at 19 Gledhow Terrace, Leeds. Father and two of the sons are coach body makers.
This building is on the site of Startins, Aston Rd North / Holland Road.
1911 census gives:
STARTIN Frederick William, widower, age 46, Coachbody Maker - worker (i.e.not own business) b. Birmingham
STARTIN Emma, daughter, age 16, b. Aston
STARTIN Thomas, son, age 14, Errand Boy, b. Aston
STARTIN Frederick, son, age 12, b. Aston
at 87 Vicarage Road, Aston Manor.
Frederick William Startin married Emma Woodbridge 3rd quarter 1885, Birmingham, vol 6d page 71.
1st child Elizabeth born c1886
In the 1901 census Frederick (39, a Carriage Builder), Emma (37) and children Elizabeth (15), Emma (6), Thomas (4) and Frederick W. (6 mths) are at 5 house 10 court Lichfield Road Aston.
Emma Startin died 3rd quarter 1907 aged 42. She had been a press worker.
There is also in the 1901 a 46 y.o., widowed, Birmingham born Francis Startin with four sons and one daughter at 19 Gledhow Terrace, Leeds. Father and two of the sons are coach body makers.