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Midland Red Early Days

Lloyd, thanks for making known hitherto unknown (to me) chassis numbers, and the subsequent cautionary notes (very interesting).

Lloyd said:
Gosh, the anorak's warm this time of year!!!!
Click to expand...

That depends which hemisphere you live in: my anorak's very comfortable! ;)
 
1918 Question in Parliament About EOG.

2010-06-29 17:25:25

Hansard reported the following question and answer in the House of Commons on 31 July 1918 (towards the end World War 1):

Sir Richard Ashmole Cooper [11 August 1874 – 5 March 1946; second Baronet Cooper from 1913; Independent member for Walsall 15 January 1910 – 15 November 1922]: asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if Mr Emil Garcke holds a dominating position in electric tramway transport and allied industries; was he born in Germany of German parents; can he say when he was naturalised; has inquiry been made as to whether Mr Garcke was financially interested before the war in similar or allied industries in enemy countries; if so, has he in any way abandoned those interests; and to whom have they been transferred?

Sir George Cave [23 February 1856 – 29 March 1928; first Viscount Cave of Richmond from 1918; Conservative member for Kingston 12 January 1906 – 14 December 1918; Solicitor General 1915 – 1916; Home Secretary 1916 – 1919; Lord Chancellor 1922 – 1928]: A certificate of naturalisation was granted on 17 March 1880 to Mr Emil Oscar Garcke, who stated that he was a natural-born subject of the Empire of Germany. I have no information as to the other parts of the question.

[The Home Secretary made very short work of a rather long "fishing" question from the member for Walsall. The date given for EOG's naturalisation confirms Lloyd's post (#604) on the subject. The spelling "Emil" for EOG's forename is commonly encountered, and (along with the "Gark" and "Garke" variations reported by Lloyd) just adds to the difficulties of Garcke family research.]
 
10,000 Views!

The "views" count for the MRED thread has today passed 10,000! :) We're now third on the list by "views" count (in the "Buses" section of BHF). Hot on the heels of "Midland Red at Digbeth" (over 12,300 views), but a long long way behind the champion"Birmingham Buses" (over 26,300). It was like watching the odometer trip over when you were a kid.

We're actually top of the "replies" chart. What a busy bunch of anoraks we are! ;)
 
I am getting closer to the answer to Which Garckes emigrated from Saxony.
EOG's brother seems to be Louis August(e) Garcke (1847-1924) who married Emma Stone Heritage in 1870, and after she died in 1873 he remarried Flora Elizabeth Peck in 1874.
EOG and LAG's father (or grandfather - see below) may have been Louis Ferdinand Garcke (c1818-1868), and their mother Emilie Garcke (c1827-?). If so there were two sisters as well, Magdaline b.c.1878 and Margeretta b.c.1860 who appear in the 1881 census but nowhere else (did they return to Germany?) and another brother Hermann b.c.1864. He was lodging at 5 Abershaw Rd Hackney in 1891, and was a commercial clerk. A Hermann Garcke and Rose Eliza Garcke nee Kidman both died 2nd q. 1936 in Essex South West, not on the same day but soon after each other (pages 199 and 201 of the register) - they had married in 4th q. 1896.
There are references to a Ferdinand/Hermann Bernard Garcke, b.c. 1854 who in 1911 was a caterer in Leigh-on-Sea with wife Miriam Salome Pearce Garcke nee Harvey (c.1850-1926) and sons Ernest Bernhard (b.c.1887) and Douglas Hermann (b.c.1893).

Some of that doesn't make sense - the father was more likely Thekla Emile Garcke (c.1826-1899) if that's a man's name, or Emile's brother.

There are references of Garckes in Quedlinburg, Saxony.

My head hurts :sick:!
 
Very well done Lloyd with the Garcke breakthrough (but take care of your head, it's valuable!). ;)

Aidan, on your advice I've downloaded and installed Google Chrome (very straightforward process, which very kindly imported my Firefox bookmarks) - I'm using it now. It improves matters somewhat with those "Shropshire Buses" links. I can get the "towns and villages" slide show and it looks OK (but the pictures are very small). And the pdf file started downloading OK (still hasn't finished but it's SOWLY getting there). The "century" slide show doesn't load at all - just sits there with the "wheel going round and round" (like the wheels on a bus). Chrome is nice and quick though, so I think I'll stick with it for now. Thanks for the tip. :cool:
 
Yes it comes out OK but when I'm actually editing (quick or advanced) I get the "/FONT=" codes etc, whereas before the edit window was true WISYWIG. It doesn't really matter, I can always go back to Firefox. Trouble is, I'm getting too old to reslish change! Thanks for you help Aidan (and for Dilbert!).
 
No prob. I actually find it preferable to see the codes so I know what it is doing (but that is just my html anorak) and as you say you can choose the browser for the job once installed eg I still have to use IE for some jobs. Dilbert does speak to the modern condition I find, when the Census rolls up next year I may be tempted to put Dilbertonianty rather than Jedi as my religion :angel:

Anyway - definitely :offtopic:

Did Birmingham have any steam Buses? I know we had steam trams (another thread)
 
Off topic or not, Birmingham certainly did have steam buses (experiments anyway) in the 1830s, and they've been quite extensively discussed earlier on this thread. We decided they were actually on topic because one of them travelled from Brum to Bromsgrove, therefore anticipating the Midland Red 144 service! ;)

Go to the MRED Index and look for "Birmingham steam buses 1830s" in the "General" category, and you'll find lots of posts listed. Enjoy.

Later on, after the demise of the "first generation" motor buses in 1907, Thomas Clarkson proposed a steam-bus service in Brum, but the watch committee (and local residents) put their foot down and said "computer says no".
 
Thanks Thylacine - that's an excellent index you have there, most useful and a lot of work put in, certainly saves ploughing through 47 pages!.

I didn't see any pics of the Steam-buses in the 1830s (must surely have been captured somewhere) and the undated quote from Aris's was interesting too (was there an illustration attached?).

It also seems strange that when the laws were reloosened, that Birmingham didn't get any Steam Buses when for example Shropshire (on URL above) seemed to have several plying from the rail stations
 
"OFF TOPIC" jibes are like water off a Thylacine's back, because "Midland Red Early Days" is only the short title of this thread. The full name is "Midland Red Early Days and Public Transport in General Before During and After the Period with Occasional Digressions". Perhaps I should have called it "Life the Universe and Everything" or simply "42" (I like that, like a number 42 bus! ;) :D).
 
Aidan, if you can find any postable pictures of early Birmingham steam buses, feel free to post them here. There was a line drawing of the Heaton vehicle back there somewhere. It was a bit too early for photos, so we're looking for paintings or drawings or engravings.

Yes steam buses made a comeback in the early 20th century (there were two others in the Midlands based at Brailes), but the Birmingham watch committee wouldn't allow them to operate in the city.
 
Lloyd said:
Pictured below are Natalie, Sheila, Melanie and Charles Western-Kaye.

Sheila is nee Garcke, Kenneth Garcke and Dorothy nee Davison's daughter, so Emile Oscar Garcke's great granddaughter. Natalie and Charles are two of her children, and Melanie nee Howe is Charles' wife.
They run Snowball Farm, Dorneywood Road, Burnham, Buckinghamshire (which Kenneth Garcke bought c 1952) as an equestrian centre of good repute. There was a link to a streetview of it in post #604 - here it is again if you missed it.

If that isn't clinging to the topic by a (horse's) whisker, I don't know what is :D!
Click to expand...

I might have missed this post first time through, Lloyd. It's good to see living descendants of the Garcke family (looking so happy too!). "Snowball Farm" is a lovely building.
 
Lovely picture Aidan! In colour too! The weather doesn't look too promising for the driver and those "on top". I love the primaeval "bus spotter" at the roadside!

Actually I think this picture, though widely published at the time, displays a considerable amount of artistic licence, and might be more of a "publicity brochure". This is discussed in Ray Girvan's interesting account (linked to in one of those early LBSC posts).
 
Comparison with this pic of the first London Steam Bus (boo Hiss) shows a certain resemblance although it does have an extra wheel
 
The steam bus did not immediately die out like other cumbersome dinosaurs, a few new designs were tried like this 1927 American 'Brooks' wiith a Buffalo Car Co 29 seat 'Parlour Car' body, and a simlar ACF bodied 39 seat city bus of 1929. Brooks' new head of engineering was A. Clarkson, son of the British steam bus pioneer, but his most important job with them was the closure of the factory and sale of assets following the company's financial collapse in the 1929 depression, the newest steam bus realising only $175.
 
Lloyd said:
That's a Milnes Daimler (Heavy torque beams run forward from under the rear axle) again proving that they were around before 1902.
Click to expand...

Thanks Lloyd - Quite a few of the early buses like Milnes Daimler and Wolseley have smaller front wheels than back, I think some carriages had a similar config - is there some mechanical efficiency to this design or what was the reason? If a good reason I wonder why we don't see such designs now?

There are some later working Steam Buses around the country, one I think that gives rides around a museum in the Lake District
 
The smaller the front wheels, the further they will turn on lock to reduce turning circle size, thats all.
 
Thanks Lloyd

While Thylacine is feeling indulgent on the scope of the thread, I wondered if this (mostly) Birmingham centric timeline of transport had been shared before (I did try a search)? https://www.qlhs.org.uk/oracle/road-transport/road-transport.htm

Inter alia it mentions "The Midland Red Magazine" but also an 1828 Omnibus service between the “White Swan,” Snow Hill and the "Sun," Bristol Road, Birmingham by John Doughty, a fishmonger. Does anyone know of this service, person, route or pubs? It doesn't seem a long journey (but Bristol Street is long)
 
Birmingham's First Horse Bus 1834.

Aidan, thanks for linking to Bernard Taylor's Story of Road Transport webpage, which I have seen before and is a pretty good summary from the Birmingham point of view. It has two nice pictures: one of Birmingham's last steam tram (1904), and one of a City of Birmingham Tramways Co Ltd horse bus (at Bearwood stables). It comes from an article by Alec G Jenson originally published in the Midland Red Magazine in 1934. [I don't know much about this publication, but would like to: does anyone know in what years it was published?]

Alexander George "Alec" Jenson MBE FRIBA was a pioneer Birmingham public transport historian, much esteemed for the depth, breadth and quality of his research. He is the author of Birmingham Transport: A History of Public Road Transport in the Birmingham Area (Walsall: by W J Ray & Co Ltd for the Birmingham Transport Historical Group, 1978; ISBN 0905103009), which covers the subject in encyclopedic detail from the earliest years to the end of the horse tram era in the 1880s. I was fortunate enough to be able to buy (for fifteen quid) a copy of this book recently: it's a veritable mine of information.

In the 44 years since his Midland Red Magazine article, Jenson had changed his mind about John Doughty's alleged pioneering horse bus service in 1828. He says:

"The date upon which the first horse omnibus commenced running in Birmingham itself has been in some doubt as Showell's Dictionary of Birmingham 1884-1885 stated categorically that 'The first omnibus was started in 1828 by Mr Doughty, and its route lay between the White Swan, Snow Hill, to the Sun, in Bristol Road', that is a year before Shillibeer introduced the omnibus into London from Paris".

He goes on to trace the origins of Showell's statement, and concludes that it is without foundation in fact:

"The date of the first omnibus [in Birmingham] can, therefore, be definitely established as being the 5th May, 1834."

So fishmonger John Doughty gets the heave-ho, and the laurel goes to one John Smith, whose bus service began on the date given. John Smith (a wonderful name for researchers!) was proprietor of the "Malt Shovel" (Smallbrook Street) and had previously been a guard on the Sheffield mail coach. His bus service operated on the route Snow Hill "Swan" - Bull Street - High Street - Worcester Street - Bristol Road - Priory Road tollgate (Bristol Road, Edgbaston), with five return trips a day (four on Sunday). The two-horse bus seated twelve (all inside), and the journey took about 30 minutes each way for a flat fare of 6d (this was at a time when the average workman's wage was about eight shillings a week). Smith's bus service was quite a success, and in July 1834 imitator William Doughty was operating services to Hagley Road "Plough and Harrow" and Handsworth "Beehive". (Bus termini were almost always pubs in those days - to the great detriment of the health of drivers and conductors! ;)).
 
Birmingham Steam Buses 1830s.

Ray Girvan's article "Dr Church's Steam Coach: 1830s Vapourware" on Dr William Church's abortive experiment is well worth re-reading as it is being kept up-to-date. In it, one Peter Walford (I wonder who he can be? ;)) casts aspersions on the good Dr Church. I trust he will post a correction!
 
Re: Birmingham's First Horse Bus 1834.

In Wrightson’s 1833 directory there are a number of John Smiths (!!!). Presumably the Malt shovel proprietor was :
Smith John, vict., wine and brandy merchant, and maltster, 50, Smallbrook-st as no 50 is listed in the 1845 directory as the Malt shovel.
However in 1833 there is also listed
Smith John, Royal mail and post coach builder and contractor, also carriage and gig: builder, 21, Coleshill-street Prospect-row
I wonder if the two John Smiths were related, and the second one gave assistance to the first. In his venture , – only a very rough supposition
In 1845 there is listed under coach & car proprietors: Smith J. 1½ Bull st. & 21 Coleshill st.Birmingham.
In then whites 1849 directory the omnibuses are listed. In particular, the Bristol road-Bull St one as seen on the attachment.. Has anyone ever heard of Strawberry Vale?
Mike

omnibus_timetable_1849.JPG
 
Alec Jenson was awarded the MBE in the 1966 New Year's Honours List. At that date he was Senior Assistant Land Commissioner with the Ministry of Agriculture Fisheries and Food (Agricultural Land Service). Does anyone know his dates, and anything else about his life?
 
Re: Alec Jenson. Here's a snippet from The Millburn and Short Hills Item (29 September 1939) [warning: it's a 13 Mb file!]; perhaps not "our Alec":

New Arrivals in Township.

Mr and Mrs A G Jenson and sons Peter and Michael, formerly of Chatham, are now residing at 11 Mountainview Road.
 
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