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Midland Red Early Days

Hello Mikey baby, I cleaned it and put it in my draw. Sadly, I can not find my drivers badge.
 
Hello thylacine, I have explained befor on this thread that I do not have any great interest in BMMO or bus driving. I needed a job and got one at Digbeth. It served its purpose and I met a few decent workmates. If I come across any more photos I will of course post them on this thread.
 
2010-06-09 09:00:51

As promised, here is a list of my sources for post #506:

Sampson Low junior. The Charities of London. London: Sampson Low, 1850. Accessed via this e-book.
Henry Mayhew. London Labour and the London Poor. London: Griffen Bohn and Co, 1851. Accessed via this e-book of selections.
John Garwood. The Million-Peopled City. London: Wertheim and Macintosh, 1853. Accessed via the excellent Victorian London website.
John Thomson and Adolphe Smith. Victorian Street Life in London in Historic Photographs. London, 1877. Accessed via Google Books (search on "Billy").
Trade Union Ancestors website.
"1891 Bus Strike". Hayes Peoples History website.

And here is a picture of a classic 1901 AATVW membership certificate (auctioned in 2008 for £60):
 
Good Evening. Here is the News.

2010-06-09 10:02:25

Here are some interesting ATV news video clips concerning Midland Red in the late 1950s and early 1960s (from the Media Archive for Central England):

22 July 1957 re Stourbridge bus strike.
25 July 1957 re Stourbridge bus strike.
June 1958 re Digbeth Coach Station opening (a very short clip but with some interior views and a nice shot of C3 4222 reg UHA222).
23 May 1963 re conductresses in Walsall (with a scene of a conductress being rudely manhandled by a manager :().

[I must get a speaker for my PC as I can't hear the sound on these clips. I'm mystified by the Walsall story, as Midland Red didn't have a depot there. I'm pretty sure it is Walsall, as we can see a couple of the distinctive blue Walsall Corporation trolleybuses in the background. Can someone please explain what's going on in this story? Is it Walsall Corporation rather than Midland Red?]
 
hello Thylacine hope you are all ok i still have my psv badges from the 1950s and are still in good condition are they worth anything lol Allen
 
G'day Allen! ;) I bet it's warm up there in Queensland (where exactly do you live?). Your PSV badges are probably worth more to you as mementos than to a collector, but no doubt there is a market for them. If you ever decide you don't want them any more, you could consider donating them to the Wythall museum. What do you remember about union activities at Sutton?
 
I suspect the Walsall story was about the corporation - the complaint was that the transport committe had decided not to taake on any more female conducting staff.
Filmed at St Paul's bus station, Walsall.
 
The Public Transport Horse in the 19th Century.

Here is a link to "The Omnibus Horse", a chapter in William John Gordon's The Horse-World of London (London: The Religious Tract Society, 1893). This fascinating and readable illustrated account not only describes the life and work of the omnibus and tramway horse in the nineteenth century, but also reveals much about the operation of buses and trams in the horse-drawn era. Clearly it's not Midland Red, and it's London not Birmingham, but the local situation must have been very similar. Though the working life of a public transport horse was quite short (five years for an omnibus horse, and four years for a tramway horse), it can be seen that the companies looked after their horses much better than their men. I hope some of our readers will be interested.
 
That's a great find thanks Thylacine - I will def dip into it - archive.org is a great resource and this is like having the actual book in front of you - bet it would be rather difficult to find and expensive to buy if you did find it for real
 
I agree, Aidan (I love those e-books :cool:). It's quite amazing how many books are available on archive.org. I first discovered The Horse-World of London on the excellent Victorian London website, but the text is in the dreaded "tiny times roman" font and is full of transcription errors, so I was pleased to find a scan of the original edition, with the full-page illustrations in place. It would be interesting to discover how much a copy of the first edition would cost (if you could find one).
 
Amazon one looks like one of those books saved from the internet and then printed out and sold for a very large profit. In wich case what does the $28 saving mean ?
Mike
 
Agreed - the archive.org version is much better in every way I think, so keep the $28 in your pocket
 
Aidan
Following your interest in post 493 on a clipping on sale of garages (which only came on attached to another story) , i have come across the actual advert , below
Mike

sale_of_garages_advert.jpg
 
2010-06-11 04:07:12 (I'm up early today!)

Re: the Amazon copy of The Horse-World of London. As the Romans used to say: "Caveat emptor (buyer beware)!". What Amazon describes as "this scarce antiquarian book" is indeed a modern facsimile reprint. These are advertised all over the internet. If you were looking for a genuine first edition you would have to be very careful to weed out advertisements such as this one. Yes, Aidan and Mike, keep your money in your pocket and read the e-book. After all, we pay enough for our internet access.

Re: sale of Midland Red garages in 1971. Thanks for that contemporary advertisement, Mike. Bromsgrove depot seems to have escaped sale at this time. Midland Red Volume 2 (page 145) says: "Bromsgrove garage was closed on 31 December 1971 (the last bus to leave being S23 no 5988 on service 145 to Birmingham), its vehicles and duties being shared by Redditch, Worcester, Digbeth, Stourbridge and Bearwood garages. It re-opened, however, on 3 December 1973 as an operational garage." Does anyone know the later history of Bromsgrove depot? And of Wolverhampton depot, Midland Red Volume 2 (page 177) says: "[T]he economy drives of the early seventies resulted in the closure of this fine modern garage on 1 October 1971. The last bus to operate from the garage was S23 5970 on service 880 (Wolverhampton – Oldbury). It returned 'home' to Oldbury instead, which, with Stafford, Wellington, Stourbridge and Dudley, was one of the garages receiving the former Wolverhampton allocation and duties." Does anyone know to whom Wolverhampton depot was sold? (If indeed it was sold).

[I don't know why I use the Frenchified term "depot" when everyone else says "garage" (which is also of French origin, but in Birmingham the pronunciation is Anglicized to "garridge"). :rolleyes:]
 
Midland Red Staff Hostels.

It is recorded that Midland Red experienced staff shortages and difficulty in recruiting from World War 2 onwards. After the war, the company realized that this was connected with the shortage of housing in various parts of the Midlands. Staff hostels were opened at Leamington (June 1947), Sutton Coldfield (January 1948) and Dudley (December 1955).

I have been unable to discover much information about these hostels. Perhaps other Forumists can help with answers to one or more of the following questions:

Were there any other Midland Red staff hostels?
Where exactly were they?
Are there any pictures of them?
When did they close?
What was it like to live there?
How strict were the rules and regulations?
Who managed them?

All information is welcome. Thanks in advance ... The Thylacine. ;)
 
Some Excellent Pictures.

Below is a sample of Mikey Ashworth's excellent collection of images of public transport memorabilia (including several items of Midland Red and Midlands interest). I hope Mikey doesn't mind my uploading this as an "advertisement" for his collection.
 
Women Bus Drivers (Again!)

Lloyd, on the Midland Red Vacancies 1952 thread, you posted this remark:

"Yes, the wages were the same for conductors and conductresses. The use of women drivers during the world wars ended as soldiers were demobbed and came looking for work, the women had to go back 'on the platform' or take other jobs 'more suited to women'. Until the late Doreen Barnett at Oldbury garage got onto the union committee and started what she under-described as 'a hard battle' to get women back as drivers, you didn't see women behind the wheel. Doreen was for a while on my union committee at Digbeth, until she retired and with her husband (who had been bus station inspector at West Bromwich for the WMPTE) ran a shop in Marsh Hill, Erdington."

Can you tell us any more about Doreen Barnett and her "hard battle" to reinstate women drivers at Midland Red? Remarkably, Oldbury garage was where the last of the World War 2 women drivers retired in 1964: does anyone know anything about that remarkable woman? (A name at least would be good).

This Media Archive for Central England clip (12 July 1965) seems to be relevant (though it looks like the interior of a Birmingham Corporation bus). The description refers to a Mrs Barris who was an Oldbury-based bus driver. I'm handicapped by a lack of sound, but I can't distinguish Mrs Barris in the video clip. But could this Mrs Barris be the World War 2 Midland Red driver referred to above, I wonder?
 
That's a great resource & one I've not come across (found some other clips that may be of interest to other threads too and will post them for those not watching the footie) - thanks Thylacine.
 
Doreen Barnett and her daughter (another Doreen Barnett) were conductresses at Oldbury - Doreen senior may have been a driver before the ban, I'm not sure, but she got onto the union committee and forced the issue, and both she and her daughter became drivers.
Doreen junior is in this clip filmed at the garage in the year after the WMPTE takeover.
 
Glasgow Motresses 1916.

2010-06-13 13:14:53

[From The Common Cause (30 June 1916). Accessed via Google News on 13 June 2010.]

Women as Tramway Workers.

As conductors women are now working in many cities with great success, but, so far, except in Glasgow, they have been employed on the rear platform of cars and buses only. A rumour that a company was training women as drivers caused such indignation among the tramway men of South London that the general manager issued a notice stating that there was no intention of doing so, as the Metropolitan Police would not license them. The traffic superintendent, it was explained, was merely told to try two women conductors on the level in order "to see if women drivers were practicable, purely from personal knowledge".

Opposition to the introduction of women-drivers was confirmed by the Conference of the Amalgamated Association of Tramway and Vehicle Workers, which met last month at Sheffield, a resolution being passed against their employment on the ground that the work was highly injurious to women and threatened the welfare of the future generation, while in many districts driving by women was a danger to the public. This "danger to the public" has not, however, been found to result from the employment of women-drivers in Glasgow, where the Corporation has had the courage of its convictions and given them a fair trial. Nor are there any signs of the women suffering in health. They are keen on their work, and are reported to perform their duties quite as satisfactorily as men.

Owing to the growing shortage of men-drivers, the Glasgow Tramway Department decided some months ago to make an experiment in the employment of women, their women-conductors having proved a conspicuous success. At first the Department started very cautiously and quietly, selecting those of the women-conductors who seemed most suitable for the work, and training them with great care. The women were very keen and enthusiastic, and soon, to the great surprise of some of the old hands, stood up to their work as coolly and confidently as the most experienced motormen. Now some hundred or more are acting as drivers, and the numbers are increasing weekly. Their wages are twenty-nine shillings a week, with one shilling a week bonus for freedom from accident.

"I think", states the general manager of the Corporation tramways, "the women are freer from accident than the men. They stick more rigidly to the rules and do not try any dodges of their own. They do not appear to take the same risks. I am pleased to say", he adds, "that in the case of both conductresses and motresses the men have, from the start, given us every assistance".

Women are now also being employed as car-cleaners in Glasgow at a wage of twenty-one shillings for a week of fifty-one hours, and for this work there are plenty of applicants — twenty or more for every vacancy. Many of the women who started this work had to give it up after a few nights, as they found it too much in addition to their own housework, which sometimes occupied them so long that they had no rest before going back to the depôt. So now the Corporation has to be quite satisfied that home conditions are such that the worker will be able to get a proper rest.

In the case of the married women-conductors, too, the Corporation is very particular to see that proper arrangements are made for the care of the children, as, being a public Department, they feel they are responsible for ensuring good conditions among their workers. A considerable proportion of the women are married, the husbands in most cases being in the Army. On the whole, the "conductresses" have given great satisfaction. They picked up the work very quickly, are popular with passengers, and very smart at issuing tickets and giving change. The hours and duties are exactly the same as for the men, and they receive the same pay. There is some complaint that they are more inclined than the men to take a day off now and again, their wage of twenty-nine shillings a week, in addition to their separation allowances, making such a good income that the loss of a day's work now and again is not felt.

Women are also employed in the Corporation garage, managed by the Tramway Department, where the automobiles used by the different departments of the Corporation are kept, the places of chauffeurs called up for military service being filled by young women. The wages are twenty-seven shillings a week, and twenty-eight shillings after six months' service.

Several months ago the Corporation started four young women to assist the electrical engineers in the power station. These four are now in full charge of sub-stations, and four others have taken their places on the power-station switchboard. These young women begin at twenty shillings and rise to twenty-five shillings after they have learnt their duties. Women are also just starting to clean the electrical switch pillars on the streets.

[The full title of the journal in which this article appeared is The Common Cause of Humanity: The Organ of the National Union of Women's Suffrage Societies, so we would expect it to be in favour of women in the workforce. Nevertheless, the article appears to me to be well-balanced, and contains some fascinating details of the Glasgow Corporation Tramway Department 1916 experiment with "motresses" and conductresses. Not quite on topic, but there is precious little local information on this subject, so I hope Forumists will be tolerant (and interested) :rolleyes:. It is curious that the word "motress" was used for "female motorman". It is quite amazing that the issue of women public transport drivers remained controversial as late as the 1970s!]
 
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A well-balanced article indeed, and the young lady looks confidently in charge of "caur" no. 5.

This page adds some more detail as to the need for and employment of women staff:

"A few weeks after the outbreak of hostilities, the need to recruit more men for the battlefield became clear, and in a period of twenty-four hours in September, 1916, the Fifteenth Battalion, the H.L.I. [Highland Light Infantry] was formed— entirely by volunteers from the Transport Department. Not only was this a remarkable feat on the part of the men in the department as a whole, but once again it demonstrated the organising powers of James Dalrymple [Glasgow's tramways manager]. During the course of the war, well over 3,000 men left the department to join the forces. One in six of these men was never to return.

Another innovation of the wartime period was the introduction of women tram crews. Again Glasgow was first, and the idea of women being employed not only as conductresses, but also as drivers was copied in several other parts of the country."

Doubtless the managerial hierarchy of BET, including B&MTJC and BMMO soon learned of Glasgow's success with the ladies and followed suit. (Therefore the inclusion in this more midlands-based forum!)

The attached picture shows an all-female crewed tram in that city.

Also, later in that GCT history:

"The greatest part played by the Transport Department in World War One was possibly in the recruitment, already described, of men for the forces. This was to be repeated during the Second World War, although perhaps on a slightly smaller scale. In any event, the first conductresses began to arrive on the platforms within the first few months of hostilities and before long nearly every tram had a female crew.

Although the war finished in 1945, the influence of the war years was to be felt for some time to come. Women continued to crew the trams for another ten years or more."

The effect of two world wars on the equalisation of women in society would be a fascinating study in its own right.
 
Thanks for your endorsement, Lloyd, and that extra information and picture. That Glasgow Transport Memorabilia website is excellent! The employment of women in traditionally "male" occupations is so commonplace nowadays that it's difficult for us to comprehend how history-making it was in World War 1. But they were all unceremoniously dumped of course after the war (not necessarily unwillingly though) when the soldiers came home.

At least we know your picture is of a Glasgow tram with female crew. I'm not sure about mine! :rolleyes:
 
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