Matilda Mayes

[Vixen]

Hi everyone. No sure where to put this.

I'm looking for information on Matilda Mayes who was the mother of May elizabeth Johns born either 1896 or 1898 as the census and birth record don't quite tally. Matilda mayes was born 1868 we think. Matilda would be my great, great grandmother but when she was just 3yrs old, she ended up in gem Street industrial school for unruly children in birmingham. She is on the 1871 census at gem Street age 3 but was also at Walton Rd Major Lesters Girls Home in Lancashire.

Matilda is thought to come from Birmingham and lived with George Johns in Birmingham.

I would like help to access any information of her time there but even better would be to learn if she had siblings or what her parents were called and why she ended up at gem St. Any info or help would be appreciated

 

[Astoness]

hello vixen...are you saying that you have found matilda on the 71 census living at 2 different places?? ...if so this would be most unusual especially as one address is in birmingham and the other in lancashire

lyn

 

[Vixen]

Matilda is listed on 1871 census aged 3 gem Street Industrial School for unruly children but it would seem on 1881 she moved to Walter major Lesters Girls Home in Lancaster. I only have a copy of the gem Street entry.

 

[Vixen]

hello vixen...are you saying that you have found matilda on the 71 census living at 2 different places?? ...if so this would be most unusual especially as one address is in birmingham and the other in lancashire

lyn

I was wondering how to access her information when she was at gem Street to try and discover why she was there, who her parents were, dob exactly and if she had siblings.

 

[Astoness]

ok i am with you now...with regards to her records at gem st...if you live in birmingham you could visit the birmingham libary archives city centre to see if the records still exist.. (check their website for opening times)if you live outside of birmingham phone up the archives dept with your enquiry...if they do exist you should be able to view them as the 100 year ruling has well passed now

lyn

 

[Vixen]

ok i am with you now...with regards to her records at gem st...if you live in birmingham you could visit the birmingham libary archives city centre to see if the records still exist.. (check their website for opening times)if you live outside of birmingham phone up the archives dept with your enquiry...if they do exist you should be able to view them as the 100 year ruling has well passed now

lyn

Thank you. I will call them today. I live outside Birmingham. No way I can visit, live to far.

 

[Astoness]

ok best of luck...this does not really help but i have found matilda on the 1925 electoral rolls living at no 23 wilton st lozells birmingham living with 2 of her children ernest and william...no sign of hubby so he may have died...on the 1901 census she had 5 children

lyn

 

[Vixen]

She did have an Ernest!! She had 13 children but 5 died. I wonder if this may be her

 

[Vixen]

ok best of luck...this does not really help but i have found matilda on the 1925 electoral rolls living at no 23 wilton st lozells birmingham living with 2 of her children ernest and william...no sign of hubby so he may have died...on the 1901 census she had 5 children

lyn

Ernest was 11 on 1911 census, also violet, may eliza/Elizabeth, Fred and albert. Matilda was 42 on 1911 census

 

[Vixen]

ok best of luck...this does not really help but i have found matilda on the 1925 electoral rolls living at no 23 wilton st lozells birmingham living with 2 of her children ernest and william...no sign of hubby so he may have died...on the 1901 census she had 5 children

lyn

Perhaps lost in the war?

 

[Astoness]

yes its looking like her...how sad to lose 5 children but we see it often and thats how things were in those days....just looking at the 1911 census..living in nechells then...i doubt if matildas hubby george died in ww1 as he would have been in his late 40s early 50s then...

 

[MWS]

George Johns appears to die in 1912. He married a Mary Ann Claby (d1887) in 1881 but there doesn't appear to be a marriage registration for George and Matilda.

A possible connection to your Hadley thread is that George and Matilda's eldest daughter Edith Diana married a George Frederick Portlock as her second husband in 1919.

 

[MWS]

If there is no marriage for Matilda and George then it might be tricky to trace her with certainty. There is no registration for Matilda Mayes but there is a registration for a Matilda Masey, Bham Mar qtr 1867.

Mmn is listed as Sneath but there are no other Masey/Sneath children or Mayes.Sneath children. No marriages either.

 

[Astoness]

hi MWS i cant find a marriage for george and matilda...on the 1911 they are down as being married for 27 years which means they married in 1884 and yet the wife of the george you found didnt die until 1887 so if they are one and the same george it could be they did not marry and just lived together..maybe he left his first wife for matilda ..as we know in those days little white lies were often told to save face..it happened with my gt grandparents who were down on the 1911 as being married for 10 years but in reality they did not marry until 1910 also cant find a baptism for matilda...she is very elusive

lyn

 

[Vixen]

George Johns appears to die in 1912. He married a Mary Ann Claby (d1887) in 1881 but there doesn't appear to be a marriage registration for George and Matilda.

A possible connection to your Hadley thread is that George and Matilda's eldest daughter Edith Diana married a George Frederick Portlock as her second husband in 1919.

Thank you for this. We were wondering if John W. Hadleys dad was also John William Hadley and his mother Emily Portlock if this is the case then his birth was registered in Mar Qtr 1894 at Aston so he would have been born on the 06/12/1893rather than 1892. Thanks so much for your help. Really appreciate it

 

[Vixen]

Thank you for this. We were wondering if John W. Hadleys dad was also John William Hadley and his mother Emily Portlock if this is the case then his birth was registered in Mar Qtr 1894 at Aston so he would have been born on the 06/12/1893rather than 1892. Thanks so much for your help. Really appreciate it

Interesting because I couldn't find a marriage cert for George Johns and matilda mayes. I did contact Birmingham archives but they won't help with looking matildas records up. They are saying I either visit which is several hundred miles away or pay a researcher which I can't afford currently. But I will keep trying to see if I can see records etc. Thanks

 

[Vixen]

George Johns appears to die in 1912. He married a Mary Ann Claby (d1887) in 1881 but there doesn't appear to be a marriage registration for George and Matilda.

A possible connection to your Hadley thread is that George and Matilda's eldest daughter Edith Diana married a George Frederick Portlock as her second husband in 1919.

If there is no marriage for Matilda and George then it might be tricky to trace her with certainty. There is no registration for Matilda Mayes but there is a registration for a Matilda Masey, Bham Mar qtr 1867.

Mmn is listed as Sneath but there are no other Masey/Sneath children or Mayes.Sneath children. No marriages either.

George Johns appears to die in 1912. He married a Mary Ann Claby (d1887) in 1881 but there doesn't appear to be a marriage registration for George and Matilda.

A possible connection to your Hadley thread is that George and Matilda's eldest daughter Edith Diana married a George Frederick Portlock as her second husband in 1919.

Does it say what age George was when he died? Trying to find anything on matilda is hard. Just 1871 and the following census for those homes/schools. She was 3 when at gem Street Industrial School. No idea what caused her to be there or any parent info yet.

 

[Vixen]

hi MWS i cant find a marriage for george and matilda...on the 1911 they are down as being married for 27 years which means they married in 1884 and yet the wife of the george you found didnt die until 1887 so if they are one and the same george it could be they did not marry and just lived together..maybe he left his first wife for matilda ..as we know in those days little white lies were often told to save face..it happened with my gt grandparents who were down on the 1911 as being married for 10 years but in reality they did not marry until 1910 also cant find a baptism for matilda...she is very elusive

lyn

She is elusive for sure lyn. I did find an ada mayes and Edith I think but could be unrelated oh and a Frances mayes who went to India, in the military. I did wonder if Frances could have had matilda but gave her up due to her job taking her overseas

 

[Astoness]

anything is possible vixen but without concrete evidence nothing is certain..as a lot of us have found if the evidence is just not there there is no chance of going further back but its too early to say that...something may yet turn up....

lyn

 

[MWS]

George Johns appears to be the son of Thomas and Dinah, born 18 Dec 1861. Father is listed as Thomas on marriage to Mary Ann Claby and their son George Patrick is with George and Matilda in 1891. He, elder George, was 40 when he died.

There are couple of likely reasons she's in a home - she's illegitimate and mother didn't want her or parents died.

 

[Vixen]

anything is possible vixen but without concrete evidence nothing is certain..as a lot of us have found if the evidence is just not there there is no chance of going further back but its too early to say that...something may yet turn up....

lyn

Just spoke to birmingham library archives. Records for matilda do exist with the national/birmingham archives I think including parent details, length of detention, age etc and discharge book. But not digitised. Ms994/14 and ms994/23. Is there any way to view these or get a copy without travelling to view. Is there anyone on here near the archives who could find out at all?

 

[MWS]

And as Lyn has said sometimes people didn't marry for various reasons. Maybe they planned to marry at some stage but George died before they could.

And there is no way I'd pay for a researcher.

 

[Astoness]

this is what i was thinking MWS that matilda was illegitimate and maybe not even given her fathers surname...so many possibilities at the min..

lyn

 

[Vixen]

this is what i was thinking MWS that matilda was illegitimate and maybe not even given her fathers surname...so many possibilities at the min..

lyn

Just spoke to birmingham library archives. Records for matilda do exist with the national/birmingham archives I think including parent details, length of detention, age etc and discharge book. But not digitised. Ms994/14 and ms994/23. Is there any way to view these or get a copy without travelling to view. Is there anyone on here near the archives who could find out at all?

 

[Astoness]

Just spoke to birmingham library archives. Records for matilda do exist with the national/birmingham archives I think including parent details, length of detention, age etc and discharge book. But not digitised. Ms994/14 and ms994/23. Is there any way to view these or get a copy without travelling to view. Is there anyone on here near the archives who could find out at all?

excellent now you are getting somewhere...sounds to me like the library have the actual records in book form...you wont be able to just go there on speck and view them and you have to hold a CARN card to view anything in the archives dept and an appointment has to be made...where do you live

lyn

 

[Vixen]

excellent now you are getting somewhere...sounds to me like the library have the actual records in book form...you wont be able to just go there on speck and view them and you have to hold a CARN card to view anything in the archives dept and an appointment has to be made...where do you live

lyn

East Sussex a long way away!!

 

[Vixen]

And as Lyn has said sometimes people didn't marry for various reasons. Maybe they planned to marry at some stage but George died before they could.

And there is no way I'd pay for a researcher.

Can't afford it to be honest. The bits I do know someone kindly found out for me. A week ago I was looking for a long lost relative and despite looking for years they found him in a few days!! Now wanting to know my history but matilda is getting me stuck lol

 

[Astoness]

yes thats a distance..i was just thinking that surely there must be way around this as some people are disabled and just cant visit the library...would it be worth phoning them up again..explain where you live and cant travel ...i think but dont know for certain that the staff could look up gem st records and just email you the relevant details you are after...think its worth a try

lyn

 

[Vixen]

yes thats a distance..i was just thinking that surely there must be way around this as some people are disabled and just cant visit the library...would it be worth phoning them up again..explain where you live and cant travel ...i think but dont know for certain that the staff could look up gem st records and just email you the relevant details you are after...think its worth a try

lyn

You would think so but nope they won't.

 

[Astoness]

oh thats a pity vixen...just in case you dont have it i found a death for a matilda johns in birmingham...born 1868 died 1926 aged 58

lyn