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Lutwyche Albert John

S

seanlutwyche

proper brummie kid
Hi.
My great-great grandfather, Albert John Lutwyche, is not located at all in the Birth Indexes. I have his birth date as 17 May 1878. How accurate that is I have no idea. I do have his marriage certificate. He married on Christmas Day 1902 at St Matthias Church. He was 24. Which works out 1878. I have his death certificate also. He died 20 Nov 1953 in New John Street West, Aston. He age was registered as 76. So what we have is his birth borderline 1877/8.
Anyhow, his "supposed brother's" birth was registered and I have his certificate. He was born in Aston Manor on 25 Jul 1883. His parents John Lutwyche & Eliza A Roberts, formerly married to a Collins, were married 11 Dec 1881 at St Matthias Church - after Albert John's birth.
What I would like to find out is, if Albert John was baptised at all. I would take an initial guess and say his baptism was either at St Peter & St Paul or St George.
If anybody would be kind enough to find out for me, I would really appreciate it. I would then be able to prove 'that link'.
If unsuccessful, could anybody provide me an alternate solution to solve this problem?

Many Thanks in advance
Sean.
 
Hi sean

Did you know there is a birth registration for A J Collins --

Albert John Collins 3rd qtr 1878 Birmingham 6d 146

You could send for this and stipulate you only want it if the mothers name is Eliza A

There is nothing on the IGI

He might have only changed his name when his mother remarried getting on for three and a half years after his birth


bren
 
Here are the family in 1891 Both John senior and Thomas Collins are Brass Dressers. You didn't say the name of Albert's 'supposed brother' so I am not sure if you have these details.:)
Name:Albert LutwycheAge:12 Estimated Birth Year:abt 1879 Relation:Son Father's Name:John Mother's Name:Eliza Gender:Male Where born Civil Parish:Birmingham Ecclesiastical parish:St Stephen County/Island :Warwickshire Street address:8 Court 1 House Frankfurt Street


Registration district:Birmingham Sub-registration district:St George Household Members:Name AgeThomas Collins 18 Step Son Albert Lutwyche 12 Eliza Lutwyche 46 John Lutwyche 40 Walter Lutwyche 7 All born Birmingham
 
Ordering Certificates

Hello Bren,

What useful information re ordering certificates and stipulating you only want to buy provided it contains certain names etc. Never thought of that. I think we have all sent for certs and been disappointed to find that it is the wrong person.

Many thanks, Florence
 
Thanks!

Hi folks. Thanks for the reply and the welcome.

Cheers Bren I never thought of that. Will give it a go the weekend.

Walter was his brother. I did have a copy of that census extract already.

But what I'm thinking is, if Albert John was born a Collins, why would he be adopted to a Lutwyche and Thomas not?? I mean when John and Eliza married in 1883, Albert would have been 5 and Thomas would have been 10.

If worst comes to the worst I might have to hire a grave digger and test all the DNAs of the said people HAHA!

Thanks guys. I will let you know of the outcome
 
Hi sean

This i think is John still with his parents in 1881 census, he could have named his son after his brother Walter


Name:John Lutwiche
Age:30
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1851
Relation:Son
Father's Name:John
Mother's Name:Elizabeth
Gender:Male
Where born:Birmingham
Civil Parish:Birmingham
County/Island:Warwickshire
Country:England
Street address:Camden St 31 Court 6 House
Occupation:Brass Stamper
Registration district:Birmingham
Sub-registration district:Lady Wood
ED, institution, or vessel:21

Household Members:NameAge
Alice Lutwiche22
Edward W. Lutwiche4
Elizabeth Lutwiche58
John Lutwiche69
John Lutwiche30
Kate Lutwiche17
Walter Lutwiche15

Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 2968; Folio: 18; Page: 29; Line: ; GSU roll: 1341710.


bren
 
Hi Bren

I have actually managed to trace back to the early 1700s, despite having no hard proof about Albert! I just wanted to make that link between Albert and his supposed father John, definate.
 
And yes that is the right John (Albert/Walter's father). What I'm willing to find out next is who Edward W's father and mother are, since he is listed as grandson to Head of the household. I have found him in the Birth indexes, and will order cert at the weekend.
 
Hi Sean, I think you have to look at what you've got. The 1891 census shows Thomas as Colins, and Albert as a Lutwyche. I would guess that either Eliza gve birth to Albert when she was still married to Thomas's father, or maybe Mr Collins died and the Albert was born before The marriage but was a Lutwyche and they gave him his correct name. The church was a factor in all of this, there would have been problems if a child born out of wedlock and not accepted by his father. but if a couple are living together and the father paying for his child then I guess not a lot would be said.

Proof of the pudding would have been if you had found Albert's baptism, but as you haven't then maybe they didn't take him to church as they were not married. Have you thought that he could have been christened years later than his birth date.
 
Hi Di.Poppit

I haven't actually looked for his baptism yet, thats how this thread started actually asking if anyone could find out for me, but it seems to have swayed a little HAHA!
 
Hi sean

You have not found proof to prove he was a Lutwyche as yet, he may be but at this point he could just as easy be a Collins. There will always be a problem if you do not find the "hard evidence" because it is so easy to make mistakes and go down the wrong path, i have seen it done so many times when people come up against a problem and not get it sorted first. Ok, you have gone down the Lutwyche line to the early 1700's but you may not have found your ancestors because there is a possibity that your gg/grandfather was not a Lutwyche.


bren
 
Hi sean

Have found this marriage --

Thomas Collins/Eliza Roberts 4th qtr 1871 Birmingham 6d 321

Thomas born c1873 was named after his father by the look of it


bren
 
Bren, many thanks for your help. I will order those 2 certificates Thursday when I get paid. And when the Birmingham Archives department re-opens I will make a visit and look through the St Paul & St Peter and St George's parish records for Albert John's baptism.
 
Its making me wonder aswell whether Edward W Lutwyche, listed in the 1881 census as John's grandchild, is Albert and Walter's brother....since Albert & Walter are also grandchildren??? Edward W being born Sept 1876 in Birmingham, and there's an entry in the Death Index for Edward W Lutwyche, Sept 1881 aged 5, Birmingham.
 
Oh dear, as I feared....

Received birth certificate for 'Albert John Collins' today. And it seems it is my great-great grandfather, as the mother entry is 'Eliza Collins formerly Roberts'; and the father is 'Thomas Collins'. But instead of his birth date being 17 May 1878, as I thought, it is 25 May 1878!

So it seems I am not a Lutwyche by blood; instead I'm a Collins.

But I think I might still research the Lutwyche line anyway, through Eliza Robert's 2nd marriage to John Lutwyche.

Would it be worth searching for Albert John's baptism too? Any suggestions on the best way forward would be appreciated.

If any would be kind enough to search the baptism for me please, I would be extremely grateful.

Thanks.`
 
bren said:
Hi sean

You have not found proof to prove he was a Lutwyche as yet, he could just as easy be a Collins. There will always be a problem if you do not find the "hard evidence" because it is so easy to make mistakes and go down the wrong path, you have gone down the Lutwyche line but you may not have found your ancestors because there is a possibity that your gg/grandfather was not a Lutwyche.

(edited)


bren
Click to expand...

Hi sean

Nice to see you have posted this, i have to say i am not surprised about the outcome just happy that at least there is a connection with the Lutwyche line, others have not been so lucky and have researched a totaly unconnected line. I hope new researchers read this then they will understand why we make the point about getting all the evidence and facts and not just skip past a problem especially on your main family line, at least now you know.

bren
 
Hi Sean,

I found you whilst searching other spellings of my mother's family name - Lutwidge has previously appeared as Luitwich, Lutwyche, Lutwich (according to Burke's Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Landed Gentry).

I have tracked back to Thomas Lutwidge who had 7 sons, two of which were John and Walter. This may be a complete co-incidence - but then again, maybe not!

Don't want to throw in a red herring, but thought this could be of interest.

Cheers

JW
 
I have been doing lots of research these last few months on this whole issue, and something new has come up!!

I managed to get Thomas Collins death certificate, and he had died in 1876, 2 years previous to Albert's death!

Now to prove that its the same Thomas Collins:
- The informant was a P.A. Davies (mother-in-law)... Now Thomas' wife Eliza Roberts - her mother was a Phoebe Ann Atkins and married a John Roberts. I found an entry for a Phoebe Ann Roberts marrying a Henry Davis in 1867. Also in in the 1871 Census Eliza Roberts is down as step-daughter of Henry Davies, with a Pheobe A being the wife!
- His occupation is down as Gun Smith. Well on Albert John's birth certificate from 1878, the father is down as Thomas Collins, and his occupation is Gun Maker. On his marriage certificate from 1871 his occupation is down as a 'Percupioner' [whatever that is? lol] In 1851, his father is down as a Gunman Silver Polisher.
- His birth place is down as New John Street West, St George. His residence at the time of marriage was New John Street West. And Albert John's birth place is down as New John Street West too!

BUT... his age is recorded as 29 years old, on his death certificate. The death being registered in September 1876, that makes him being born, roughly 1847. His actual birth was June 1845. 18 months out? Close enough I suppose!

Is that enough proof that Thomas Collins can't be the father of Albert John. Albert was born May 1878, conceived roughly Sep 1877...a year after Thomas' death?!

Eliza married for the second time to John Lutwyche in 1881, 3 years after Albert's birth. Could Eliza have put down Thomas as the father as she was not married to John yet? Was there a certain time period between two marriages? What possible reason could Eliza have put down Thomas' name, instead of John's, even though Thomas was dead, although not yet married to John. What stopped her from marrying John before Albert was born??

Would it be an idea to find Albert's baptism, if theres one at all. Would he have been baptised straight away, or once Eliza & John were married. In 1883, they had a 'legitimate' child, namely Walter Lewis. Would Albert & Walter have got baptised together?

Any help will be much much appreciated!

Thanks in advance :D
 
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