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Knights Templar graves found near Kidderminster, Worcestershire.

An interesting story, but the Mail Online also reports some academic responses, Helen Nicolson a retired Prof of Medieval History and Prof Ken Dark who are doubtful. But academics are trained to cautiously question sources.

These are interesting medieval gravestones, but the association with the Templars is speculative. There are lots of curious carvings in churchyards. Not my field, but as a recovering academic I'd tend to side with Nicolson & Dark, unless there is written evidence linking the Templars to Enville. Helen Nicolson says she has transcribed the Staffordshire Templar records and there is no mention of Enville.

Temple Church in the Inner Temple in London can be visited. https://www.templechurch.com

But it will be interesting to see how the historical journals respond to this. Thank you for posting this story.
 
Interesting points raised Stokie about the doubts of the other two historians and I can see if its not documented, then is it true?

I have appx 171 members in my family tree, all of which are linked by birth, death, or marriage certs. So I can see the importance of the recordings proving evidence.

In the case of the Knights Templar graves, they are so old, who knows if the records have been kept or not? Perhaps it's a case of until its disproven, we could assume that the Enville findings are that of the Knights Templar.

The case of Richard the III buried under a car park in Leicestershire springs to mind, nobody thought it was true to begin with.

Hopefully we will hear more about the truth behind the mystery.
 
Strawberry Hunter said:
Interesting points raised Stokie about the doubts of the other two historians and I can see if its not documented, then is it true?

I have appx 171 members in my family tree, all of which are linked by birth, death, or marriage certs. So I can see the importance of the recordings proving evidence.

In the case of the Knights Templar graves, they are so old, who knows if the records have been kept or not? Perhaps it's a case of until its disproven, we could assume that the Enville findings are that of the Knights Templar.

The case of Richard the III buried under a car park in Leicestershire springs to mind, nobody thought it was true to begin with.

Hopefully we will hear more about the truth behind the mystery.
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Perhaps, Kat.

'Professor Ken Dark, an archaeologist and historian at King's College London, said: 'The meaning of the symbolism, association with the Templars, and even dating of these tombstones, all seem doubtful.' Doubtless he will have looked at many medieval tombstones.

You suggest
Perhaps it's a case of until its disproven, we could assume that the Enville findings are that of the Knights Templar.
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But isn't it up to Edward Dyas to show that Enville was a Templar Church? Can he find any evidence besides the crosses which might variously be interpreted to suggest it was? We know there are Templar sites in the UK but Enville seems not to be documented according to Helen Nicolson. What evidence is there that these are Templar graves at all?

But if people become interested in medieval history as opposed to the fictional 'Da Vinci Code' this would be a good thing. Mr Dyas seems to be an accountant and Mr McMahon is an ex-TV producer who has produced popular books on the Templars. I think they can push the right buttons for media interest.

But I agree that more light on this story would be a good thing.

Derek
 
Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me Derek, very interesting to discuss this with you, appreciate it.

My knowledge on Knights Templar is well, nil to be honest!!!! The article in the press has captured my interest, so Im learining about the subject. Plus in the last week some very old history has crossed my path, The Old Crown Inn in Digbeth, plus a book about the history of Birmingham, all 'around' (using that phrase loosely!) the same era, which includes the article on the Knights Templar Enville burial site.

I'm never really interested in history that goes back so far, so for these three subjects to arise is making me want to look closer.

I'm not sure if the churches had to belong to the Knights Templar? Perhaps the local one was full and that's how they ended up being buried in a church that is not listed? Who knows, strange things happen, just like Richard III being found in Leicestershire under a car park!

Forgive my lack of knowledge, I could do with a concise lesson on Knights Templar.
 
Strawberry Hunter said:
Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me Derek, very interesting to discuss this with you, appreciate it.

My knowledge on Knights Templar is well, nil to be honest!!!! The article in the press has captured my interest, so Im learining about the subject. Plus in the last week some very old history has crossed my path, The Old Crown Inn in Digbeth, plus a book about the history of Birmingham, all 'around' (using that phrase loosely!) the same era, which includes the article on the Knights Templar Enville burial site.

I'm never really interested in history that goes back so far, so for these three subjects to arise is making me want to look closer.

I'm not sure if the churches had to belong to the Knights Templar? Perhaps the local one was full and that's how they ended up being buried in a church that is not listed? Who knows, strange things happen, just like Richard III being found in Leicestershire under a car park!

Forgive my lack of knowledge, I could do with a concise lesson on Knights Templar.
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I appreciate you raising the topic, Kat. I read a book called Going to Church in Medieval England by Nicholas Orme on Kindle which described how powerful the church was in that period and how the services then were different.

I don't know much about the Templars myself to be honest, except that they were one of the crusading military religious orders. They are said to have had a secret initiation ceremony and hidden treasure. In 1307 many in France were tortured and burned. The Pope disbanded the order in 1312.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar
Templars in England: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar_in_England
The list of churches includes Garway in Herefordshire.
I gather that they preferred their own churches to hold ceremonies. They were regarded as heretics from 1308, though the period of persecution in England was brief. Both Wiki articles have decent bibliographies. Fascinating and dangerous times.

Derek
 
Thanks for the links Derek, I'll have a look. Hmmm, yes, I can imagine they were 'dangerous' times, good choice of wording.

When you think of how we live today, it's got to be luxurious compared with older times.
 
What an interesting thread.

St Marys, Enville may have a link with Birmingham as the original chancel was built by Roger de Birmingham, sometime between 1272-1307. The de Birmingham family were lords of the manor of Birmingham for 400 years and it's very likely that Roger was a member of the same family.

I can't trace any record of the Templars in Birmingham but the manor of Balsall was given to the Templars by King Stephen; hence Temple Balsall. Part of the mediaeval hall of the Templars still survives. Heritage open day in Sept - https://www.heritageopendays.org.uk/visiting/event/st-mary-the-virgin-church-temple-balsall. Hope to go and to visit Enville as well.
 
Thanks for the info.on the open day, interesting about Roger de Birmingham too. Getting quite spooky (good spooky) all of the historic details coming my way!
 
Alfred Payne, the rector, as the headstone, had a twin brother Arthur. The graduated from Oxford and played cricket. Kind of spooky as my partner's name is Payne, plus he has just become great grandfather to twin boys and he has a grandson called Alfie.

I was hoping to find a pic of Alfred, but I can't see anything as yet.
 
Strawberry Hunter said:
Alfred Payne, the rector, as the headstone, had a twin brother Arthur. The graduated from Oxford and played cricket. Kind of spooky as my partner's name is Payne, plus he has just become great grandfather to twin boys and he has a grandson called Alfie.

I was hoping to find a pic of Alfred, but I can't see anything as yet.
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Strawberry Hunter said:
Visited St Mary's Church today. Very interesting.
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Well done for visiting Enville, Kat. It certainly looks an interesting place. Were there many old gravestones, perhaps with carvings? Scull and crossbones and candles can be seen on older graves elsewhere.

Two knights riding a single horse is said to be a Templar device, but there are very few Templar graves in the UK I understand. Dating gravestones is notoriously difficult.

I thought you might like Royston Cave https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20221212-a-secret-site-for-the-knights-templar
Helen Nicholson is cited here too. She has written on the Templars.

There are memories of pre-reformation Catholicism in older English churches, occasionally wall paintings and rood screens though many have been obliterated or destroyed.

Thanks for your pictures,
Derek
 
The weather was a bit hot to be standing looking at the stones. We did walk all the way round and we went into the church and left a donation. There were some very old stones there.

Thanks for the Royston cave link. My partner is from Hertfordshire and he recognises the place names in the article but he didn't know of the cave.

Thanks again for the information, I appreciate it.
 
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