• Welcome to this forum . We are a worldwide group with a common interest in Birmingham and its history. While here, please follow a few simple rules. We ask that you respect other members, thank those who have helped you and please keep your contributions on-topic with the thread.

    We do hope you enjoy your visit. BHF Admin Team

John moss wall family.: Mostly jewellers in jewellery quarter

S

saltleygate

proper brummie kid
Hi there!
I am trying to link up bits of my known family with some other Wall members who I have come across in Key Hill Cemetey records.

Definite ancestors are: John Wall. Buried 3rdfeb 1825. St Paul's. Jeweller aged 36 married to Sarah Smith. One of their sons was John Moss Wall. Jeweller buried in Warstone. 1853 aged 41, widow Alice Wall. This was a aingle grave.

Today I had info on a family plot in Key Hill with 6 Wall members in; one of whom is another John Moss Wall aged 11 months buried Nov 1874. Address 27 Upper Hockley Street. That same grave has 2 other burials for ht esame family that same year: April 16th Jane Alice Wall aged 1 yr and 10 months and also Charles Wall aged 31 buried August 1874. he had a named rwlative: Joseph Wall.

Would love to know if. Anybody has any other info on this/these families and if anybody knows a link between the John Moss Wall senior and the infant who died in 1874.
There are 3 other members in this grave if anybody else would like the info.
Many thanks.
Wendy
 
There's a baptism on familysearch for a Charles Wall in 1842, the son of John Moss and Alice Wall. That would make him about the right age.
 
Charles Wall (son of John Moss Wall) married Sarah Elizabeth Chapman in 1866. They are living in B'ham in 1871 with 3 sons. In 1881 Sarah is a widow living with the same 3 sons and a nephew.

Can't find any baptisms or burials but I would surmise that the 2 children are Charles and Sarah Elizabeth's.
 
Hi again! fascinating! Would you mind telling me the names of the sons and nephew please? This is info I have never come across.

I have one other inteesting mystery re John Moss Wall senior. He died in 1853 at Unett St but I have found a will that was proved much later by a Mary Eliza Phillips Wall in February 1875 described as daughter and one of next of kin.
I do not know what JM Wall's wife Alice's maiden name was, only that she came drom Liverpool. I think she might have died too in 1874 but this is just a guess!

If Mary Eliza Phillips Wall was a daughter, I have no dates for her and can only surmise that if she was their daughter she might have been born in 1874 herself?? this is guesswork!
 
In 1871 they're listed as Charles (1867), William (1869) and Francis J (1870).

The nephew is listed as Ernest Clark (1880)

There's a marriage on familysearch in 1835 for John Moss Wall and Alice Vernon. Also one of their children was Sarah Vernon Wall (1846).
 
There's a baptism for a Mary Eliza Phillips Wall in 1856. Can't find a birth but there is a death listed for a Mary E P Wall in 1910 and the age given is 58, which would make it about 1852.

I fond John and Alice in 1841 living at 50 Communication Row. John is a journeyman Jeweller. With them is an Oliver Wall (aged 9) and an Alice Wall (aged 5),

Looking for Oliver's birth it seems John might have been married previously to a woman named Margaret. There is a baptism for an Oliver John Wall, son of John and Margaret in 1833, birth 1831.

There is also a burial for a Margaret Wall, the wife of John Wall, in 1834.
 
Thank you! That makes perfect sense! the other 3 members of the Wall family that were buried in the family grave in Key Hill Cemetry were Sarah Elizabeth died 1898 aged 54 and William in 1934 aged 65 and Charles in 1939 aged 72. Family plot N428 for anybody who is interested. Cheers!
 
Alice is alive in 1861, living with children - Charles, Sarah, Joseph and Catherine - even though Sarah appears to have gotten married in 1866 to William Whittaker.

She is still alive in 1871, living with daughter Sarah and husband William Whittaker in Aston, with Joseph as well.

Joseph marries Emma Turner in 1871
 
Thank you so much for all your help and the link. did not know about that. Will sign off now and maybe try that tomorrow as I am curious to see what else I can find out about Oliver Wall, John Moss Wall 's eldest son whomseemed ro follow him into the jewellery trade. I have manages ro get a lot of indo re Charles, a brother of JM who having started as a xlerk, became quite a prosperous manufacturer, moving into a big house in Edgbaston, with a daughter living in Moseley in a big house in Salisbury Road. All faacinating stuff, when you know the areas, just a few decades too late.
My direct rwlative Henry, another brother of JM did not fare so well!
 
Although John Wall is not listed in Pigot's 1841 directory, he is listed as a jeweller at 50 Communication Row in the 1845 Post Office directory (note year is date of publication and the info , particularly for early directories may be up to 2 years or so out of date). That he is included as a jeweller must have meant he had his own business. In the 1849 PO directory John Moss Wall is a jeweller at 168 Unett St.
the 1855 PO Directory lists John Wall, jeweller at 18 Icknield st West.
the corporation directory of 1862 lists charles Wall, jeweller at 12 Congreve St and an N. Wall , gold chain maker, 35 Harford St
al the remainder are PO directory or its successor Kellys:

1867 & 1868
Charles Wall, jeweller, 12 Congreve St
John Wall, jeweller, 12 Tenby St

1872
Charles Wall, gold cutter, 47 Northampton St
John Wall, Jeweller, 41 Frederick St

1873
Charles Wall, jeweller & umbrella maker, 12 Congreve St
Charles Wall, gold cutter, 47 Northampton St
John Wall, gilt jewellery manufacturer, 41 Frederick St
Nathaniel Wall, gold chain manufacturer, 189 Warstone Lane

1876
Charles Wall, gold cutter, 27 Upper Hockley St
John Wall, Jeweller, 41 Frederick St

1878
John Wall, gilt jeweller, Warstone buildings, Warstone Lane
Nathaniel Wall, gold chain manufacturer, 55 Tenby St north
Sarah Elizabeth Wall (Mrs), gold cutter, 105 Vyse St

1879
John Wall, gilt jeweller, Warstone buildings, Warstone Lane
Sarah Elizabeth Wall (Mrs), gold cutter, 105 Vyse St

1880
Charles Wall, gold cutter, 105 Vyse St
John Wall, gilt jeweller, Warstone buildings, Warstone Lane

1882, 1883 & 1884
Charles Wall, gold cutter, 105 Vyse St
John Wall,gilt jeweller, 8 Vyse St

1888
Charles Wall, gold cutter, 105 Vyse St
John Wall, gilt jeweller, 8 Vyse St
Nathaniel Wall, silver chain maker, 60 Graham St
Thomas Wall, gilt jewellery manufacturer, 90 Vittoria St

1890, 1892 1895, 1896, 1897, 1899 & 1900
Charles Wall, gold cutter, 105 Vyse St
John Wall, gilt jeweller, 8 Vyse St
Thomas Wall, gilt jewellery manufacturer, 90 Vittoria St
1903 & 1904,
John Wall Ltd, manufacturers of best gilt, gold fronted and enamelled jewellery etc, 6 Vyse St
Charles Wall, gold cutter, 105 Vyse St
Thomas Wall, gilt jewellery manufacturer, 90 Vittoria St

1905
John Wall Ltd, manufacturers of best gilt, gold fronted and enamelled jewellery etc, 6 Vyse St
Thomas Wall Ltd, gilt jewellery manufacturer, 90 Vittoria St
Charles Wall, electroplater & gilder, 19 Pitsford St

1908
John Wall Ltd, manufacturers of best gilt, gold fronted and enamelled jewellery etc. 41-42 Hockley Hill
Thomas Wall Ltd, gilt jewellery manufacturer, 90 Vittoria St
Wall Alfred Ambrose, manufacturing silversmith, Hampton works, 91-92 Mott St
Charles Wall, electroplater & gilder, 19 Pitsford St

1910
John Wall Ltd, manufacturers of best gilt, gold fronted and enamelled jewellery etc. 41-42 Hockley Hill
Thomas Wall Ltd, gilt jewellery manufacturer, 90 Vittoria St
Charles Wall, electroplater & gilder, 19 Pitsford St

1912 & 1913
John Wall Ltd, manufacturers of best gilt, gold fronted and enamelled jewellery etc. 41-42 Hockley Hill
Thomas Wall Ltd, gilt jewellery manufacturer, 90 Vittoria St
Charles Wall, electroplater & gilder, 19 Pitsford St
George F.Wall, manufacturing silversmith, 52 Hylton St
Thomas Wall, jeweller, 56, Gt. Hampton St

Have not gone past 1913, but can if required

I have ignored the pearl button maker, the dealer in buttons studs etc and the embosser.
There is an Oliver Wall listedin bull St, but he is a Stay & corset maker
 
Oliver John Wall is in Unett street with John , Alice and family age 18, apprentice, a death recorded for Oliver John Wall ,June quarter 1861.
 
Good Morning! What an amazing way to start the day with all this info! I had been chasing the Wall ancestors for some time via censuses etc and got stuck about 18 months ago. Martin Shaw's WDYTYA at Key Hill reminded me I had a plot number and here we are!
Some of those you have listed I can definitey recognise: Charles of 27 Upper Hockley Street died 1874 and Mrs Sarah Elizabeth Wall , the gold cutter is his widow and I am pretty sure that the Charles who carried on after her as same is rheir son.

JOhn Moss Wall is actually great great uncle Wall, as is his beother Charles born c 1815/6 who Became a big manufacturer with 23 employees. Henry born 1814? 1815? is great great Grandad who was a silver plater (but iddna lot of vanishing leaving his family scattered! )

I would be fascinated to know if there is any info on the otherbrothers and sisters of Jonn Moss Wall :Sarah Smith Wall b 1811, Alfred b 1817. Eliza. B 1818, JOb Smith Wall b 1820, Frederick W Wall b 1822 and lastly Oliver b 1824. who I think became the stay and corset maker you mentioned. All children of original jeweller John Wall 1785- 1825. Gt Hampton Street and wife Sarah, nee Smith

I shall print all your findings off, sit down and try to digest them. Many thanks for all your research!
 
Good Morning! Thank you! What date was he in Unett Street please? I know he became a jeweller too. Did he have. Son called Oliver? Do you know? many thanks!
 
1851 census Unett Street

John Wall age 38 jeweller employing 2 men
Alice age 32 ,wife,born Liverpool
Oliver john,son age 18 apprentice
Alice 14,daughter
Charles,son 8
Sarah,daughter 5
Catherine,daughter 3
Joseph,son, 10 months
George Harrop age 16 Apprentice
Mary clark age 19 servant b Galway Ireland
 
I am not sure if or how this might fit in with your family but I have found this death announcement:
Birmingham Daily Post Saturday 21 January 1893
Wall, on the 17th inst. after much suffering Rebecca the beloved and much lamented wife of Oliver Wall 125 Unett Street

on Family search there is a Rebecca Wall born 1821 died Birmingham Jan/Feb/March 1893 age 72
 
I think she is the second wife of the elder Oliver John Wall, there is a marriage record, 1870s I think, on which Oliver and Rebecca are widower and widow.
 
Hi there!
Yes, Rebecca was named as his wife in the 1891 census at 125 Unett Street, Oliver being losted a s a 'stay and corset maker. So, I am sure you are on the right track. Thank you!
 
That's good - I thought I had found the wrong one as I Just noticed Oliver John Wall was born 1831 - died 1861 - what relation was the Oliver Wall that married Rebecca to the Oliver John Wall born 1831 - died 1861?
 
Last edited:
Hullo again! Yes, I think you are right. I have Oliver as a stay maker in Icknield Port Street no 6 in the 1851 census with his wife Frances and then again the two of them are in Icknield Port Raod in what looks like Booths Buildings no 12.in 1861. He is now listed as a stay presser. Thank you!
 
Hi there!
Oliver senior, later the corset maker, was a brother to John Moss Wall the jeweller 1813 -1853 ( Unett St) and Oliver John Wall who died in 1861 was a son of JOhn Moss Wall. They were uncle and nephew respectively. Most confusing as there ere one or two more Olivers who pop up laater too! Thanks!
 
One os our members, Astonness, has pointed out that my address fro John wall 1908-1913 looked bit peculiar, and she was right. I should have put 41-42 (not 41-32). I have corrected it on th eoriginal list, but point it out to Saltleygate so he can correct his copy.

I have checked back with what i have slightly earlier , and, although there are no Wall jewellers listed in Wrightson's 1815,1818, 1823,1829 or 1833 directories, John is listed as jeweller in the 1839 directory at 50 communication Row. These earlier directories were much less complete and , I have a feeling that they were funded by contributions, and so only those paying were included, so his earlier absence is unremarkable
 
Hi there! Thanks for your further thoughts on all these folk. Gt Gt Gt Grandad John Wall is as far back as I know. He was the jeweller 1875 to 1825, of Gt Hampton Street, married to Sarah Smith at St Philips and buried in 1825 at Warstone Lane.

Unfortunately I cannot prove that the John Wall who you have traced to all these directories is related !
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top