• Welcome to this forum . We are a worldwide group with a common interest in Birmingham and its history. While here, please follow a few simple rules. We ask that you respect other members, thank those who have helped you and please keep your contributions on-topic with the thread.

    We do hope you enjoy your visit. BHF Admin Team

Help with old painting

Dennis Williams

Dennis Williams

Gone but not forgotten
Any one help with identifying this painting handed down through the ages to the eldest son of the Williams family.

He is probably Thomas Williams. The date is reputed to be circa the early 1800s Other than that, does anyone know the regiment he was in? Or anything useful....
 
Thanks GG. He has copied my stomach to perfection I notice. But was too young (just) for the National Service and would never have made a sargeant anyway... too bolshie and opinionated...sigh. Still married to herself for the last 43 years though, and she's WORSE. I am told the medal is the Waterloo one for service in that battle of 1815. I also have been told his uniform is the 3rd Foot & Mouth, but I think that's a joke..
 
Last edited:
Hi Dennis,
The medal could be the Waterloo Medal, issued in 1816-17 to troops involved in the Waterloo Campaign of 1815, the Military General Service Medal, issued 1847 for service in the Napoleonic Wars in general (1792-1815). The Medal had to be applied for, assuming you were still living ancould be bothered. Both have a ribbon consisting of a Broad red Stripe with a narrow outer blue stripe. One is darker blue than the other Very difficult to tell after a year of two's fading).
The hat (shako) he is wearing was issued several years after Waterloo - 1821 at least and reamined in use for many decades. The colour ioof the collar/cuffs often helps to tell the Regt. Blue was for 'Royal Regiments. Black was scarcer - notable 50th West Knts. Despite having 'Territorial' names, they took recruits from all over, sending recruiting parties around the country, ansd also absobing people from local Militia units that signed up for the Regulars.

You could email the pic the National Army Museum at Chelsea, who may be able to assist?

Brian
 
Brian you are a true gent sir. My family, and myself in particular, thank you most sincerely and I will do as you suggest. Brilliant lot you are!
 
That they are Dennis and a wealth of information. Nothing seems too much trouble for them and they usually come up trumps. Jean.
 
I take Brian's point re' the 'Waterloo' medal, but could this be slightly post-war 'militia' uniform?
 
On reflection it probably is a Waterloo medal. The MGS medal had 'clasps' (little bars for each major battle) awarded. It is possible he served but was not present at any.

Also probable that he was himself serving in a veterans or militia battalion when the portrait was painted. The gold sash is unusual, usually red ones were more common.

I have asked a colleague, in the waterloo society to see what he can come up with, there may have been many Thomas Williams in the army at that time, fingers crossed xx
 
Indeed a fascinating portrait, Dennis. Has anyone ever commented on his baton or swagger stick? Instead of the leather-covered short staff carried traditionally by officers in British regiments for a very long time, your ancestor seems to have a pizzle under his left arm.
Please see https://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Pizzle , definition #2.
Merry Christmas, David
 
I believe he is a Regimental Sergeant Major, (the reason for this is the sergeants stripes together with a gold sash round waist and carrying a sword, lower ranks have had a red one, worn a cross the chest now for duty Nco's) in a fusilier Regiment (white hackle in shako), the dress and shako design could well be 1814/15 although it persisted till around 1825, he has a garter star cap badge, I have never seen the cockade worn in the shako before and wonder if it could be on the enthronment of George the IV around 1820? after his father died and the Regency came to an end. sorry cannot be more help.
paul
 
More Help? MORE HELP? Apart from naming his tailor and hairdresser plus his inside leg measurement I doubt anyone could do much better boys. You are all forever in my debt. Great military detectives. Thanks Paul and Brian and Graham. I am also grateful to David for the Pizzle puzzle (sorry, couldn't resist). It would certainly lend some credence to the family obsession with this part of their anatomy down the years....
 
Dennis you don't say if your familly was originally from wales, (Williams), there is one regt from around this time which wold fit the bill, 43rd Regt of foot (Monmouthshire light Infantry) formed in 1805 and served through the Penninsular war and at Waterloo, just a thought.
paul
 
No, he was a bloody cockney I think! His son was born 1813 in Middlesex, gilt toymaker, met a lass from Stratford on Avon and married her in Handsworth Church (1837) then the family settled down in Brewery Street - Blews Street - Manchester Street, Aston. My cousin, the keeper of the Picture, reckons her 'expert' thought the uniform dated from the 1830s, and he was a recruiting Sargeant for an infantry 'Regiment of Foot'. The waterloo medal is confirmed by him . You are too kind Paul, thanks for your interest again.
 
I think I have it Dennis, The Worcester Yeomanry (31st regt of foot) had a five pointed star as a cap badge and was raised as a fusile regt in the civil war period( white hackel), also, 1830 was the year of William III's coronation, hence the cockade! so it is a distinct possibility.
paul
 
Hi Dennis, A recruting sargeant in trhe 1830's fits with the post Waterloo shako & gold sash
Regarding Thomas Williams at Waterloo - my friend has come up with the following -
"not sure that I can do very much to help but you're welcome to what I have got.
I have recorded 190 soldier with the surname of WILLIAMS as being at the Battle of Waterloo: 25 of them have the forename Thomas!
Of these 25; 6 were in the cavalry; 11 were in the infantry; 4 were in the corps and 4 were either killed in action or died subsequently.

Amongst the remaining 21 there are 5 NCO's: a Trumpet Major in the 18th Hussars; a Sergeant in the 2nd Foot Guards (Coldstream); 2 Sergeants in the 3rd Foot Guards (Scots) and a Sergeant in the 95th (Rifles).

Your man's uniform would exclude the Rifles and his rather rotund stature would probably exclude the cavalry; which just leaves the three Guardsmen as possibilities and looking at his stance and apparent demeanour, one of these could well be a possibility! Both of the Scots Guardsmen and the Trumpet Major were in receipt of the MGS medal as well as that for Waterloo.

Obviously he may not have been a sergeant at Waterloo, as this is some years later and he may have been promoted since."

May not help much - but it's another step somewhere!

Brian
 
It certainly would not have been a Coldstream or Scots foot guards Nco with a white hackel, these were only Fusilier line regiments or militia, the only regiment in the Household brigade with a white flash in their bearskin is the Grenadier Guards. also the cuff ends are totally different.
paul
 
Key Hill Brian said:
Hi Dennis, A recruting sargeant in trhe 1830's fits with the post Waterloo shako & gold sash
Regarding Thomas Williams at Waterloo - my friend has come up with the following -
"not sure that I can do very much to help but you're welcome to what I have got.
I have recorded 190 soldier with the surname of WILLIAMS as being at the Battle of Waterloo: 25 of them have the forename Thomas!
Of these 25; 6 were in the cavalry; 11 were in the infantry; 4 were in the corps and 4 were either killed in action or died subsequently.

Amongst the remaining 21 there are 5 NCO's: a Trumpet Major in the 18th Hussars; a Sergeant in the 2nd Foot Guards (Coldstream); 2 Sergeants in the 3rd Foot Guards (Scots) and a Sergeant in the 95th (Rifles).

Your man's uniform would exclude the Rifles and his rather rotund stature would probably exclude the cavalry; which just leaves the three Guardsmen as possibilities and looking at his stance and apparent demeanour, one of these could well be a possibility! Both of the Scots Guardsmen and the Trumpet Major were in receipt of the MGS medal as well as that for Waterloo.

Obviously he may not have been a sergeant at Waterloo, as this is some years later and he may have been promoted since."

May not help much - but it's another step somewhere!

Brian
Click to expand...


Be sure to pass on my sincere thanks Brian. You are a diamond Sir.
 
It is possible that in the painting, he is probably not in the same regiment as he fought at waterloo, changesd were unusual for other ranks, but her could have left the army and joined a militia unit
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top