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Harper

L

Lyn Walker

knowlegable brummie
Trying to find details on Elsie Harper in 1901 aged 6 in 1911 aged 16 with Grandmother Drusilla Harper a pawnbroker in Kingston Road Smallheath Birmingham, have sent for many birth certificates with no luck
 
hope it will help that i have found druscilla harper in 1891.

george harper 64 pawnbroker b. shrewsbury
"priscilla" harper 51
lily harper 23
frank harper 17
george harper 14
albert harper 9
harry 5

so it may be one of these children who is the parent. lily maybe??
 
I think the father was George a professional footballer in later life, he married Florence Saunders she died in 1901 and he married Evelyn May Howes, I have an old photo of George Henry harper son of George and Glorence and it says on the back to my dear sister Elsie, he died in the 1918 flu epidemic when my mother in law was 6 months old and I am unable to find Elsie
Lyn
 
Mrs Drucilla Harper, pawnbroker,is listed in kellys as at 93 Kingston road in 1912. In 1900 and 1896 it is Mrs D Harper, pawnbroker (presumably the same )
From1880 – 1895 it is George Harper, pawnbroker at 93 Kingston road. (He is not there in 1878). Obviously it is not clear if this is the same firm, but I have been unable to find a George or Drucilla Harper that fits in birmingham on the 1891 census, so maybe it was a second business he had. I musy admit I always thought before pawnbrokers at that time were one man businesses, but possibly I am wrong in that assumption
Mike
 
Hi
Thanks for the reply, George harper died in 1894 so that would explain things, Drusilla died in 1927, how easy is it to find an obituary or a newspaper article that may show if Elsie was married or something, I live in Canada so everything is done on the internet, thanks once again
Lyn
 
This 1881 Census confirms the information given by Mike --

Name:George Harper
Age:54
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1827
Relation:Head
Spouse's Name: Drucilla
Gender:Male
Where born:Shrewsbury, Shropshire, England
Civil parish:Aston
County/Island:Warwickshire
Country:England
Street Address:93 Kingston Rd
Condition as to marriage:Married
Occupation: Pawnbroker & Clothier
Registration district:Aston
Sub-registration district: Deritend
ED, institution, or vessel:61
Household Members:NameAge
George Harper54
Drucilla Harper40
Emily Harper18
Elizabeth Harper12
Frank Harper7
George Harper4

Lily on the 1891 is obviously Elizabeth here.


bren
 
In 1901 George was indeed a professional footballer,lodging with the Eades family (as a single man) in Wolverhampton,possibly playing for Wolves? He must have then moved to Grimsby because his daughter from his 2nd marriage was born there.
1901
Eades Sarah E 44 Head Kidderminster, Worcestershire 207 Coleman Street, Wolverhampton Western
Eades William P 18 Son House Carpenter Bilston, Staffordshire
Eades Nellie 15 Daur Draper Assistant Birmingham, Warwickshire
Eades Thomas A 13 Son Commercial Clerk Quarry Bank, Staffordshire
Harper George 23 Boarder Professional Footballer (single) Birmingham, Warwickshire.
1911
HARPER, George Henry Head 33 Professional Footballer born 1878 Warwickshire Birmingham
Married 9 years
HARPER, May Evelyn Wife 29 born1882 Warwickshire Birmingham
HARPER, Dorothy May Daughter 8 born1903 Grimsby Lincolnshire
Address: 1 St Ives Place 1 Bk 245 Coventry Road Small Heath

He did indeed play for Wolves. Found the following mention of him in a cup tie replay against QPR January 1900
"It looked like it would ultimately prove to be the Londoner’s undoing as Wolves sprang to life shortly before the interval when they were reduced to ten men by the loss of George Harper to injury. It had looked doubtful that Harper would be fit to continue but a ten minute chance to recover at half time saw him emerge with his team mates for the second period. Wolves now began to really turn the screw as Trevor Own crashed a long range shot against Clutterbuck’s post before Harper was left holding his head in his hands when referee Kingscott stopped play for a foul on Bryan a second before Harper fired past Clutterbuck to seemingly break the deadlock. It had been a hasty decision by Kingscott, which would ultimately cost Wolves their place in the cup, though that wasn’t apparent yet. Then, ten minutes from time, it seemed that the ref was out to make amends when he awarded Wolves the softest of penalties. Ted Pheasant then stroked a tame spot kick wide of Clutterbuck’s goal and suddenly it seemed that the gods themselves were smiling on the Londoners." (source:freewebs.com)
 
Interestingly, on the 1911 census,Drusilla states that she only had 3 children,all born alive and still living.
 
This looks like the same family, first marriage ?? 1871


Name:George Harper
Age:44
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1827
Relation:Head
Spouse's Name:Elizebth
Gender:Male
Where born:Shrewsbury
Civil parish:Aston
Ecclesiastical parish:Holy Trinity
Town:Bordesley
County/Island:Warwickshire
Country:England
Registration district:Aston
Sub-registration district: Deritend
ED, institution, or vessel:27
Household schedule number:219
Household Members:NameAge
George Harper44 Wood Turner
Elizebth Harper38 *
Phebe Harper15 All children born Birmingham
Georgina Harper12
Emily Harper7
Elizebth Harper2
Thomas J Jordan10 Son-in-law by marriage. That's what it says ??

87 Coventry Road
* The transcriber has give her place of birth as Brentwood but looking at the image i think it says Brewood, this is in Staffordshire, Shrewsbury is in Shropshire and although different counties they are close to each other. I found a marriage --
George Harper/Elizabeth Moore 4th qtr 1854 Wolverhampton 6b 693
This would have been her Parish they married in as was more often the case.
And have now found --
George Harper/Drusilla Lane 3rd qtr 1875 Birmingham 6d 75

bren
 
Last edited:
I have looked for a birth for Elsie, do you have the certificate for --

Elsie Nellie Harper 1st qtr 1896 Birmingham 6d 174.

If so, what parents names are given, there was another, Elsie Gwendoline, 4th qtr 1896, and i found her birth on the IGI and she was Christened 2nd Oct 1896 St Peter & St Paul Aston and her parents was Thomas Joseph & Ellen Harper. I had a quick look on the Census and he was born Coventry so looks unlikely to be this one.

bren
 
George Harper the pawnbroker was married 3 times and had 10 children, 1st to Phoebe Harper, then Elizabeth nee Jordan and the Drusilla Lane whose family were bare knuckle boxers known as the battling brums, although George the footballer gives his marital status as single in 1901 he was in fact married to Florence nee Saunders who is in a asylum hospital at the time and died shortly after, George henry my husbands grandfather who died in the flu epidemic was with his Saunders grandparents, John and Maria and Elsie was with Drusilla, I have sent for both of the certificates mentioned but they were wrong I have recently sent for another one but not yet received it but I believe you have a strike there, on the 1901 census Elsies place of birth was given as Birmingham but no place was given in 1911, maybe she was not born in Birmingham and I am barking up the wrong tree, I thought if I could find a obituary ornewspaper article about Drusillas death in early January 1927 it may mention Elsie, Frank was present at Drusillas death not Elsie and I wonder if she died, I also wondered if she had a problem as in 1911 she was not working or at school at age 16, I have found marriage and information on the other brothers and posted it on genes, also marriage of his half sister but no bites as yet, thankyou all
Lyn walker
 
Hi there, re Elsie's birth cert; do you have a copy of her parents' marriage cert?
Only I just wondered if they were actually married when she was born? Only there are a couple of Elsie Saunders born about the right time in Birmingham/Aston.If they were married then these can be discounted and there's nothing lost!! One possibility is
Elsie Saunders
Year of Registration: 1895 Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Aston (1837-1924) County: Warwickshire
Volume: 6d Page: 253
There was another Elsie Saunders born 1894 (oct/nov/dec) but she died during the same period.
 
Hi
Thanks for your message, I have 2 certificates here and have sent for several more around that time.All Wrong, I think here parents were George Henry Harper B 1876 he was at one time a professional footballer and played for Wolverhampton Wanderers and he married Florence Saunders on the 8th May 1895 and they had a son my husbands grandfather who was born 8 May 1896, I wonder if she was born out of wedlock and the grandmother bought her up or something I wondered about school registration as she lived in Kingston Road, I hired a researcher and also the Birmingham Records office but have found out nothing, there is a Elsie B Dudley July 1894 and wondered whether to try that, the Canadian dollar pound ratio is good at the moment so it is a lot cheaper now. Thanks again
Lyn
 
Don't mean to throw a spanner in the works here but... Could the name Elsie have been a nick/shortened name for this lady in question that the family used...?
Like: Polly, Peggy, Nellie, Liza were often used amoung others, even though they were also names used in there own right too .... Just a thought.
 
In Bren's post one of the children was marked "son-in-law" this term was used for step-children, and if the child was obviously too young to be married, it was the child of a pevious marriage.
 
Hi Sylvia
George the pawnbroker had 3 wives, Phoebe Heath, Elizabeth Jordan born Taylor and Drusilla Lane and Elizabeth probably had a child when he married her, I have all 3 marriage certificates, still have not found the elusive Elsie may splash out for some more birth certificates, anyone researching Harpers other than myself I have 2 here wrong ones
Lyn
 
I'm Helping my brother to rersearch this family - the details I have at present are:

1851 - George Harper - 24 - Wood Turner Salop
Phebe 25 - Bone Button Polisher - B'ham
Mary 6
Louisa ? 2

1861 - George Harper - 34 - Wood Turner Shrewsbury
Phebe 35
Mary J 16
Louisa 12
Phoebe 4
Georgina 2

1866 Death of Phebe Harper age 41 Q4 1866 Aston 6d 158

1867 Marriage George Harper & Elizabeth Jordan Q3 1867 Aston 6d 313
also
1867 Marriage Louisa Harper & Frederick Trimnell Q3 1867 Aston 6d 313
will have to check age of a Louisa Trimnell in the 1871

1871 George Harper - 44 - Wood Turner of Shrewsbury
Elizabeth - 38
Phebe 15
Georgina 12
Emily 7
Elizabeth 2
This is strange - How can Emily be 7 when her mom & dad only married 3 years ago
AH - Of course - Emily is Phebe's child & was born before Phebe died about 1864

1874 Death of Elizabeth Harper age 38 Q2 1874 B'Ham 6d 121

1875 Marriage George Harper & Drussilla Lane Q3 1875 B'Ham 6d 75


You can email me directly at dc_wall at adsl dot on dot net here in Australia.

As far as I can make out from brief checking - Elsie was the child of George Henry
the 14 yr old in 1891 - still living at 93 Kingston Rd.
FreeBMD has mixed details on his marriage - the best fit is in Q2 1895 Aston 6d 659
(the one with 669 is wrong - the ancestry image shows it as 559 quite clearly)
I am unable to verify who he married as again there are conflicts - but Elsie was
aged 6 living with her gran at 93 Kingston in 1901 census.
Elsie's mother died when she was about 5 or so I believe - that's why she was palmed off onto her gran.
Elsie is the grandmother of the person we are researching.

dave wall
 
I am looking for Harpers too,Jack Harper and Brian Harper who changed their surname to London and were Boxers,they are connected to my family somewhere and believe are cousins of my grandfather James Hunt,i know that Brian London lives in blackpool and had a very sucessful career as a Boxer has did his father before him.
But still trying to find out where they fit in the family tree.
Anyone out there know where i could look next?
Many thanks
Linda
 
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