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HÉBERT Paul Marie Jean Francois and HÉBERT Frances Mary nee JAMES

Brummie On Exmoor

master brummie
One of my mother's Birmingham family lines was JAMES. They arrived in Birmingham from Worcester in about 1835.

My Great Grandfather's younger brother Frank JAMES took over his father's Hairdressing shop in Congreve Street in about 1880. Later he reverted to his original profession of Lithographic artist, and the family moved to King's Norton. He and his wife Mary Jane had only 2 children, and the older child, their daughter Frances Mary JAMES married a Frenchman in King's Norton in the last quarter of 1905. I have found a very little information, but otherwise this has proved a complete dead end.

Frances Mary was born in Handsworth in July or early August 1879, and christened at Christ Church, Sparkbrook on 13 August. She lived at home with her parents and her much younger brother until she married. Her husband was Paul Marie Jean Francois HÉBERT, who was born in France in about 1883-1884 (aged 27), according to the 1911 Census.

In 1911, Frances Mary and her husband were living at 7, Woodbrooke Road, Bourneville with their 3 year-old son Paul Francis, who had been born on 23 January 1908 in Gloucester (at that point their only child). Paul Marie was a Fancy Goods Merchant working on his own account.

Frances and Paul later had 2 other children, Phyllis M G H HÉBERT in the 3rd quarter of 1911 and Philippe G in the 3rd quarter of 1914, both in King's Norton. I think there is evidence of Paul Francis and Philippe G later marrying in the UK (Paul Francis perhaps twice), and Paul Francis died in Barnet in early 1996.

However, after the 1911 Census and the birth of their 2 children, Frances Mary and Paul Marie disappear without trace, and so does Phyllis. I can find no other sign of them on any of the big Genealogy sites (Ancestry, Find my Past, Genealogist): no deaths, no remarriage; no emigration/re-emigration. I can find no sign of them in National Archives (I have found naturalisation records for another family member who married a Hungarian); I have tried Google and found no trace.

Please can anyone come up with any clues about the fate of this couple? Their apparent disappearance after 1914 suggests to me that they went somewhere else to live and that it just was not picked up. But perhaps they changed or anglicised their name during the War.

I would love to know where they went and what happened to them, and to the missing child, Phyllis.

I would also love to know what brought Paul Marie to Birmingham in the first place, and where in France he came from.

Many thanks.

Jane
 
In 1920 at 550 Bristol Rd Selly Oak,there is a Paul Hebert listed on the Electoral Rolls with a Reginald Smith.
Also mentioned in Kellys at 7 Woodbooke Rd in 1912 and 1913.
 
Jane
Don’t know how much of this is new to you.
The hairdressers at 37 Congreve st changed from George to Frank between the 1880 & 1882 directories. Assuming it is the same Frank he moved the hairdressing business to 14 Broad St Corner between the 1883 & 1884 editions, and then to 3 Edmund st between 1892 & 1895.. In 1892 the Edmund St hairdressers had been run by Frederick James.. He is still there 1896, but by 1897 the shop has been sold off and is part of a tailors.
Paul Hebert is listed (without accent) at 7 Woodbrooke road in Kellys directories for 1912-1913 . If it is the same person, he does appear on the electoral roll for 1920 at 550 Bristol road, Northfield with a Reginald Smith, who is also at that address in the absent voters list for 1918 & 1919 . In the 1915 Kellys 550 Bristol road Northfield is listed as a Paul Herbert
Now there is a renumbering of Bristol Road between 1920 and 1921, and 550 Bristol Road, Northfield becomes 1119 Bristol road south in the 1921 Kellys . In 1921 Kellys lists the occupant of 1119 as Paul Herbert. However the 1922 electoral roll shows him gone .
 
Thank you so much Mike and Linda, for your help.

I knew some of the date info about the shop moves, Mike. My 2xGreat Grandfather was George JAMES, and he had a hairdressers (& sometimes perfumers) at 4, Congreve Street from at least May 1840. then moved to 37, Congreve St sometime between the 1871 Census and the 1876 Hulley's Bhm Directory. I presume the move was required because of the building of the civic buildings in Congreve St at about this time. I think the further move by Frank to Broad St was for the same reason.

I had also found the ref. to Frederick, and I was unsure about the implications. George retired, and had died in 1886, and had no sons or nephews called Frederick. I now realize that it is Frank, as I have found him in Edmund St on the 1891 Census. He must have been trying to 'move upmarket' by changing his name (he was called Frank from birth). Certainly the dates you have found would fit with him having moved back to being a Lithographic Artist and living in King's Norton from 1901.

The Voter's List info is fascinating. The son was too young to be the Paul living in Bristol Street, so it must be Paul Marie. If Frances Mary was in the picture, she would have featured on the VL in Bristol Road after 1918. It sounds as though she had disappeared off the scene during the War, but she had her last baby in mid 1914. So it must be between late 1913 and 1915 that some sort of split occurred, or between mid 1914 and 1915 that she died. Now I know when to focus my attention. Thank you so much, I am really grateful.

Very best wishes

Jane
 
Jane
Just a slight addition. The 1873 whites directory lists George at 3 Congreve St, and the 1876 Pos Office directory at 37 . however it should be noted that the date on the directory was the publication date and the date of the actual survey would probably be a year earlier, or in early directories possibly even more.
In addition, from 1883-1890 (but not in 1882 or 1892) there was a George James listed as Hairdresser at 218 Monument road
 
Hi Mike,

The Monument Road JAMES family appear to be quite separate. My George retired to Baker Street, Yardley in 1881, and he died there in April 1886. He is buried at Key Hill.

Many thanks.

Jane
 
Dear Jane,

My name is Michaële, I am Philippe G Hebert's grand-daughter. I live in Paris and maybe this is why you lost the family's trace. Paul and Frances left England for France around 1924/5. They came back to the city of Troyes were his parents lived. The older son, Paul, my great uncle went back to live in London as soon as he turned 18 and this why you could find traces of his death date in 1996. Philippe is also now deceased but Phyllis is still with us and will turn 103 on july 24th. My uncle Jacques Hebert is also answering you but he is a bit short with english. I would love to know more on the James family since my daughter is named after Frances and Phyllis and my son has Paul as a second name. I can answer lots of your question on the french side of the family and I do hope this message will find you!
Kind regards,

Michaële
 
Hello

First of all, I kindly request you to excuse my English.

My name is Jacques HEBERT. I am the youngest son of five sons of Philippe Georges HEBERT. Paul Marie Jean-François HEBERT and Frances Marie James were my grandparents. They came to live in France in the years 1923-1925. They settled down in the city of Troyes, 11 street Begand, where my grandfather worked as sales manager in the factory of hosiery GILLER.


Paul, my grandfather, son of Paul HEBERT and Marie Massey, was born on November 18th, 1883 in France to saint Marcelin in the department of Isère.
He died on July 24th, 1942 in Troyes, department of the Aube.


My aunt Philys lives always in France where she arrived with her parents. We are going to celebrate his 103 years in July of this year. she has been a nun in a convent for nearly 80 years , in the abbey of Saint-Louis of the Temple, near Paris. She bears sister Véronique's name.


Here we are, I hope that these few lines will bring you one beginning of answer.
My niece Michaele HEBERT CARREL is going to try to complete this information and will write you.
Kind regards,
Jacques
 
Dear Michaële and Jacques,

I was amazed and totally bowled over to see your posts to me about the HÉBERT connection to my JAMES line. I am wondering how you discovered my question on this forum, but it is wonderful that you have done.

I am a very keen family researcher, I have done a huge amount of research, and have discovered a great deal of very interesting history about the JAMES family. I would love to share it with you. I am currently working on it with my cousin Rosemary. I have just contacted her to tell her about your messages, and I know she will be as excited as I am.

I am especially excited to hear that Phyllis is about to celebrate her 103rd birthday. What a wonderful age, and what an eventful time she has lived through! She is the 2nd cousin of my own mother, of Rosemary's mother, and our Aunt Peggy, who is a mere 94! Sadly, Rosemary's mother Joan died in 2009, and my own mother, Dorothy, died in January this year - she was 96. I know that she would have been very excited too to know that you have made contact.

I have a great deal of information to share with you, and I also have photos which you may find interesting. It might be better to share all this by email, rather than here on the Forum, so I will send you a private message with my email address. If you email me, I can start to send you information and pictures. If you have any problems, leave another message here on the Forum.

I should say that your English is wonderful - much better than my French. I speak reasonable French, and understand more, enough to manage well when we visit. My husband and I visit France a lot, we love coming and usually sail across from Plymouth to Roscoff. I notice that you Jacques, live in Caen, which we know. We have not visited Troyes, we are not so familiar with Eastern France. Do you visit England?

I will now leave you a private message with my email...

With very best wishes to you both,

Jane
 
Dear Michaële and Jacques,

I don't think either of you has got Private Messaging on this site. If one of you can set that up, I will send you my email address.

Regards,

Jane
 
Dear Michaële and Jacques,

I don't think either of you has got Private Messaging on this site. If one of you can set that up, I will send you my email address.

Regards,

Jane
Note: You will need to go to your profile and edit it to allow members to private/instant message you. If any problems let a member of the Admin Team know and we may be able to help.



BernardR
 
Dear Jane,
You can't imagine how thrilled I am that you found our messages!!!! I just changed my profile hoping I did the right moves so you can contact me via email....If I don't get any message then I will ask the administrator to help me. It is wonderful that you travel to France a lot. My family and I are actually going to England this summer, maybe if we are not too far we could meet.
I hope we can soon exchange more on that connection that makes us relatives!
Best wishes,

Michaële
 
Michaële, I have now sent a Message with my email address.

Paul - yes, isn't this a brilliant thing to happen. I will post an update indue course, to say what has happened!

Jane
 
Just an update for Paul Stacey and any other Brummies interested in the story of the HÉBERTs.

Michaële, her husband and children are coming to visit us here in Devon on Friday, whilst on holiday in England. Another cousin is travelling down from Monmouth to join us. We have already had a lot of long emails, and swapped photos, but Friday will be really special. It is clear now that we have looked closely at the evidence that these 2 lines were very close before being parted by the Channel, so hopefully, we are just picking up where they left off, 90-odd years ago.

I will post a photo of us after Friday.

Jane
 
Thank you Jane , what a wonderful event for you and your extended family, I hope you have a great time, and send my best wish's to you all, I would be interested how everything went, my youngest son has just discovered that the 18th century Architect and interior designer "Robert Adam", is related to our "Adam" side of the family though my Grandfather, George Adam, all fascinating stuff, good luck and thanks. Paul Stacey.
 
Another update for friends here on the Forum who have followed this amazing discovery of my French family after so many years.

My cousin Rosemary and myself have now met Michaële and her husband Stéphane twice, first here at our house in Devon last summer and then in London this spring. We have been in regular contact, and have got to know each other quite well, swapping family information and photos, going back over many years.

Phyllis, the daughter of Paul and Frances, who was born here in Bourneville in July 1911, and became a Sister in an Abbey in France before the last War, died there this summer, aged 104. She was blind and deaf, but totally alert. After her death, one of the Sisters wrote to tell us how important it had been to her to learn that we had made contact. Rosemary and I, and our husbands, are flying over to Paris at the end of this week, to attend a celebration of her life and a special Mass, at the Abbey, on Friday. We are meeting the Abbess and Sisters who looked after her in her later years. Then we are meeting the wider family, and spending time with Michaële, Stéphane and their children.

I never thought, when I posted my original question here in 2012, that this would be the outcome!

I hope our story will encourage others to dig deeper, and have faith that you CAN find long-lost family, and that this Forum is a PRICELESS tool in this. Thank you everyone.

Best wishes

Jane
 
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