Gumbley: William, b1840, son of Charlotte?

[stephen1837]

Hello,

I have been banging my head against a brick wall for a year; can
anyone help me?

William Gumbley married Charlotte Morris in 1860. According to the
marriage records, William's father was Edwin Gumbley, a shoemaker, and
his mother was Charlotte Gumbley.

This gets confusing because there are now two Charlotte Gumbleys:
William's mother and William's wife.

I have not been able to find any trace of Edwin Gumbley in the
censuses or BMD records. I wonder if he ever existed?

It would appear that Charlotte Gumbley (William's mother) married
Charles Styles in 1852. In the 1861 census, William and Charlotte
(William's wife) are listed as living with William's half-brother
Richard Styles. So far, so good.

I assumed that Charlotte Gumbley married Edwin Gumbley and had a son,
William, born circa 1840; that Edwin died and that Charlotte later
remarried Charles Styles.

The problem is that the marriage records state that Charlotte
(William's mother) was a spinster at the time of her marriage to
Charles Styles.

So either way one of the marriage records must be wrong:

Is Charlotte's (the mother's) marriage to Charles Styles incorrect
that she was a spinster: did she lie to avoid bigamy or was this an
innocent mistake by whoever recorded it?

Or is William's marriage to Charlotte (his wife) wrong to record Edwin
Gumbley as his father? Was William the illegitimate son of Charlotte?
Was the name Edwin Gumbley invented by William at the time of his
marriage? Or was it invented by Charlotte; was William bought up
believing his lost father was Edwin?

William should have been born c1840. There is no birth certificate for
him that I can find. Freebmd lists two William Gumbleys born 1840 but
Birmingham register office say this is a mistake and there is only
one. The birth that was registered was to different parents and that
William and his family can be found in the censuses, so I know they are
different people.

Is there any way I can find William's birth?

Is there any way I can find William's father?

Perhaps the earlier censuses would help but I can't even find
Charlotte Gumbley (the mother) in these.

Help!

Thanks,
Stephen.

 

[Pomgolian]

Have you seen this one on the Family search site and the BMD site?
CHARLOTTE GUMBLEY

Spouse: EDWARD MORRIS
Marriage: 28 NOV 1854 Saint Phillips, Birmingham, Warwick, England
[SIZE=+1]Marriages Dec 1854 [/SIZE]
Gumbley Charlotte Birmingham 6d221
Morris Edward Birmingham 6d221

If you then look at the one I posted here on the other thread https://forum.birminghamhistory.co.uk/showthread.php?t=24972
you will see there are two Charlotte's who married around the same time.
one in 1852 to Charles and one in 1854 to Edward.

Both marraiges are recorded on both the BMD and the IGI sites (Family search)
Do you think That this Charlotte's Edward died and she remarried back into the Gumbley family in 1860 . Or is the record mistranscribed and it should read Edwin Morris. Or could there have been a lot of inter marriage between these families?
Or have I now confused the issue even more?

 

[stephen1837]

Have you seen this one on the Family search site and the BMD site?
CHARLOTTE GUMBLEY

Spouse: EDWARD MORRIS
Marriage: 28 NOV 1854 Saint Phillips, Birmingham, Warwick, England
[SIZE=+1]Marriages Dec 1854 [/SIZE]
Gumbley Charlotte Birmingham 6d221
Morris Edward Birmingham 6d221

If you then look at the one I posted here on the other thread https://forum.birminghamhistory.co.uk/showthread.php?t=24972
you will see there are two Charlotte's who married around the same time.
one in 1852 to Charles and one in 1854 to Edward.

Both marraiges are recorded on both the BMD and the IGI sites (Family search)
Do you think That this Charlotte's Edward died and she remarried back into the Gumbley family in 1860 . Or is the record mistranscribed and it should read Edwin Morris. Or could there have been a lot of inter marriage between these families?
Or have I now confused the issue even more?

Thanks for your continued help.



I guess the only way to find out if the two weddings were for the same Charlotte would be to buy the two marriage certificates and see whether the brides' ages match?

My instinct is that this is a different, third, Charlotte Gumbley!

Gumbley was her maiden name and she married Mr Styles in 1852. If she remarried in 1854, wouldn't she have been recorded as Charlotte Styles?

Charlotte was a Gumbley to begin with, so I don't think she remarried into the Gumbley family after 1854 (are you thinking of Charlotte Gumbley, her son's wife?). Though who knows what happened in the ten years between censuses?

Sadly Charlotte died in 1859 so is not included in the 1861 census.

The recurring problem with the Gumbleys is that there are so many people of the same generation with the same name: two families with a Matthew (my great grandfather), two families with a William (my great x2 grandfather) and now it seems two Charlottes (my great x3 grandmother)!

 

[Pomgolian]

Sorry I meant to say I was referring to the Charlotte of the 1854 marriage
here

That this Charlotte's Edward died and she remarried back into the Gumbley family in 1860

and not the the Charlotte of the 1852 marraige... .. as yes I think Charlotte 1852 and Charlotte 1854 are two different people
You have ...

William Gumbley married Charlotte Morris in 1860. According to the marriage records,

But I found this also

CHARLOTTE GUMBLEY

Spouse: EDWARD MORRIS
Marriage: 28 NOV 1854 Saint Phillips,Birmingham, Warwick, England

And that's why I thought that this Charlotte may have remarried back into the Gumbley family in 1860... if Edward had died,or is she yet another Charlotte...

Not sure if you know but back then families used naming patterns.
English Naming Patterns 1700-1875
1st Son -------------------------- Father's Father
2nd Son ------------------------- Mother's Father
3rd Son ---------------------------------- Father
4th Son ------------------ Father's Eldest Brother
1st Daughter --------------------- Mother's Mother
2nd Daughter --------------------- Father's Mother
3rd Daughter ------------------------------ Mother
4th Daughter --------------- Mother's Eldest Sister
and so forth... Mother's and Grandmother's maiden names were also often used for Christian names and middle names too for both boys and girls.

So if Granddad on the father's side was named William every first grandson of his children were named William too, if granny on the mother's side was Charlotte every first granddaughter of her children were also named Charlotte and so on.
Now because some had very large families this meant there were a number of cousins around the same age with the same names.
Little did they know back then that this naming tradition would cause so much confusion :confused2: to their G/G/Grandchildren when researching their families.

 

[stephen1837]

that's why I thought that this Charlotte may have remarried back into the Gumbley family in 1860... if Edward had died,or is she yet another Charlotte...

Not sure if you know but back then families used naming patterns.
English Naming Patterns 1700-1875
1st Son -------------------------- Father's Father
2nd Son ------------------------- Mother's Father
3rd Son ---------------------------------- Father
4th Son ------------------ Father's Eldest Brother
1st Daughter --------------------- Mother's Mother
2nd Daughter --------------------- Father's Mother
3rd Daughter ------------------------------ Mother
4th Daughter --------------- Mother's Eldest Sister
and so forth... Mother's and Grandmother's maiden names were also often used for Christian names and middle names too for both boys and girls.

I don't know what happened to the Charlotte of the 1854 marriage or whether her husband died. However, Charlotte Styles, nee Gumbley, died in 1859 so even if Charlotte m1954 did later become a Gumbley, there is no possibility of confusing the two after the 1851 census. The problem is I can't find either Charlotte in 1851 or 1841. Ancestyr's transcribers rarely recognise Gumbley as Gumbley!

My new problem is that the christening you found could be for either Charlotte. I don't know which church she was baptised at but how could I be sure it was the christening of Charlotte m1852, not Chalotte m1854?

I had heard of the naming scheme but I had thought it was used by Scots, not English. Having said that I was told the Gumbleys were scottish; my (Brummy) relatives wore kilts up to a couple of generations ago but I can't find any scottish link!

 

[stephen1837]

Sorry, I forgot to say, the naming scheme I had heard of, I think, used the names of grandfathers and greatgrandfathers, etc. rather than of brothers.

 

[rccoombes]

I'm sure that this will not help but here goes...

My gggrandfather was William Coombes, christened in London in 1838 with a father of Edwin Coombes (sometimes Edward and from Birmingham) and mother Charlotte (possibly born in Birmingham in 1815). I know that Charlotte's maiden name was Gumbley from the birth certificate of a later child.

In most records William Coombes age suggests he was born in 1840 but the record of that birth does not exist; at least I cannot find it. I am pretty sure the London christening is him as in 1841 the family (including him) are in London (minus Charlotte but with Edward)

Then in 1851 the family are back in Birmingham (minus Edward but with Charlotte). I have a birth certificate showing that Charlotte had a little girl in 1850 but there is no father's name.

Are we looking at the same William or even the same Charlotte?

Richard

 

[stephen1837]

My gggrandfather was William Coombes, christened in London in 1838 with a father of Edwin Coombes (sometimes Edward and from Birmingham) and mother Charlotte

That's interesting: you have a William with parents Edwin and Charlotte; the same names my William stated for his parents on his marriage certificate.


What was Edwin's profession? Was it a shoemaker? If so, that would be another match.

I know that Charlotte's maiden name was Gumbley from the birth certificate of a later child.

Who was this child and when and where was he or she born? This could prove that we are talking about two different families with identical names because I thought "my" Charlotte Gumbley married Mr Styles in Birmingham in 1852 and died shortly after.

In most records William Coombes age suggests he was born in 1840 but the record of that birth does not exist; at least I cannot find it. I am pretty sure the London christening is him as in 1841 the family (including him) are in London (minus Charlotte but with Edward)

That's interesting. I cannot find the birth of my William c.1840 either. In the censuses William always said he was born in Birmingham, except in 1881 when he stated "Chelsea, Middlesex". You mentioned a Christening in London. It wasn't anywhere near there was it?

Then in 1851 the family are back in Birmingham (minus Edward but with Charlotte). I have a birth certificate showing that Charlotte had a little girl in 1850 but there is no father's name.

I have not found them before 1861, the name Gumbley is rarely recognised as such by th transcribers! I will have to have another look and I will look for the Coombes to see if they lived close by. There certainly seem to be similarities and ten years between censuses is a long time, who knows what could have happened in between?

 

[paul stacey]

hi stev1837
when a lad I had a great friend called Chris Gumbley he went in the royal sigs I think around 1962, he lived in the northfield/frankley area don't supose you have any knowlage of him or his familey??
regards
paul

 

[stephen1837]

hi stev1837
when a lad I had a great friend called Chris Gumbley he went in the royal sigs I think around 1962, he lived in the northfield/frankley area don't supose you have any knowlage of him or his familey??
regards
paul

I'm afraid I don't know them. The Gumbleys are my great-great-grandparents so it's quite a distant connection I have with the family, sorry.

 

[suemalings]

Mr Gumbley was the caretaker at our school, Adderley Infants in Saltley, during the 1950/60's. Wonder if he fits into your tree.

 

[stephen1837]

Mr Gumbley was the caretaker at our school, Adderley Infants in Saltley, during the 1950/60's. Wonder if he fits into your tree.

I don't know. I only really know about the family before 1901 (and in this case, not much even then); later than 1901 it is difficult because of the lack of public access to records. Or should I now say after 1911.

 

[rccoombes]

Hello,

I think I have replied to your other thread about Charlotte.
I think her husband Edwin was Edwin Coombes.
The William (born 1840) is actually William Coombes - christened in Chelsea in 1839. He is my direct ancestor and I spent a long time looking for him in 1840 without success, quite obvious why now.

Hope this is useful
Richard Coombes

 

[paulreid]

Sorry for this late reaction... Be careful of the marriage between "William Gumbley" and Charlotte Morris! If you check it in FreeBMD (looking for a marriage of Charlotte in 1860), you will see that her husband is a William GRIMBLEY! This is also very evident in the scan of the index. There are some Grimbleys in Birmingham and Aston in the 1871 census, but not (it seems) William and Charlotte.

I'm also trying to unravel all this as I'm trying to trace the ancestors of William Gumbley, b. 1899 in Brum. If anyone can help, I'd be very grateful!

 

[stephen1837]

Sorry for this late reaction... Be careful of the marriage between "William Gumbley" and Charlotte Morris! If you check it in FreeBMD (looking for a marriage of Charlotte in 1860), you will see that her husband is a William GRIMBLEY! This is also very evident in the scan of the index. There are some Grimbleys in Birmingham and Aston in the 1871 census, but not (it seems) William and Charlotte.

Thank you for your post and message. Don't worry about coming in late, we are all making slow progress on the Gumbleys and posts have been spread across a number of months as we have found out more. The web site sent me a message to say there was a new post, so I am sure the other contributors have been alerted too.



Have you used the censuses at Ancestry to find the Gumbleys? That's what I used and it was very hard to find them because so many times their name had been mistranscribed, partly because the old fashioned writing is hard to read and perhaps also because Gumbley is not (was not?) a common name and therefore not known to the transcibers. Even today I am not sure the correct way to spell Gumbley: some records have the "b" in the middle and some do not!



I am 99% sure that this is what has happened here. The marriage certificate I had from the GRO says they were married in St Peter's church on 3rd July 1860. The handwriting of the groom's name is joined and slanted so it is hard to tell whether the "G" is followed by a "u" or whether it is followed by an "r" joined to an "i". I think the uncertainly is because there is a black splodge above it, presumably from a mark on the film it was archived on to? This gives the impression that it is the dot above an "i" but I am certain it is just a spot. I think this is what miselad the transcribers.


I can't remember how I found the certificate but I don't remember being uncertain of the name when I ordered it.


There are four "Gumbleys" on the certificate: in addition to the groom's name (1) there is also his father's name (2) and then the "signature" of the groom (3) and the "signature" of his father (4). On items 2 to 4, it looks less ambiguous (to me) and looks like the "G" is followed by a "u"; certainly there are no dots above any of these names so either the "i" has not been dotted or it simply is not there.

The certificate is from the GRO so it is not the original certificate; that's why I put signature in quotes because they aren't the real signatures of the people present. To be 100% certain I think we either need to view the parish records for St Peter's or the certificate at Birmingham register office. I suppose the church records are at Birmingham library, are they? I am meaning to go there, one day.



I know that if you order a certificate from Birmingham register office they actually photocopy the original so you would see the exact page that our ancestors signed. That might be the only way to ever be 100% sure. Assuming that son and dad could both write, the name would have been written by groom, father, and vicar so there would be three different styles of writing and hopefully at least one would be legible!


I tried to submit a correction to freebmd but gave up after their web site kept refusing to accept it, so I have added a postem instead, hoping that might help people searching in the future.

 

[paulreid]

Thanks Stephen! The Gumbley name does seem to be a target for mis-spelling transcribers! The 1901 census transcription on Findmypast for Edwin G Gumbley and family in William Street, Birmingham has several errors, the worst being the surname appearing as GAMBLEY. The writing on the census page is a little unclear, but no doubt that the correct name is Gumbley.

We should be grateful for the work of the transcribers, but they don't always make life easy for us!

 

[paulreid]

Stephen - a further thought... On the marriage certificate of William Gumbley to Charlotte Morris, is there any indication of whether his father (Edwin) was deceased, or what his occupation was? Also, are there any clues in the names of the witnesses? Any Coomb(e)s for instance?!

 

[rccoombes]

Only 18 months since you last posted on this. Sorry its taken me a while to respond. To answer your questions:

Edwin was a shoemaker as per the 1841 census.
The later child (children) are the siblings of William - Edwin (1841), Elizabeth (1850) - no father on that one.
William was christened at St Luke's in Sidney St, Chelsea
All have the surname Coombes so I'm pretty comfortable that Charlotte Gumbley married into the Coombes family.
By 1850 Edwin had died and I haven't tried to follow Charlotte after that.

 

[paulreid]

OK, many thanks! And Happy New Year!

 

[G G Jean]

Stephen my friend sue married a Dave Gumbley from Sutton Coldfield. Have you a Dave in your family tree?. Jean.