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Gt Grandad lived bk of 408 Coventry Road in 1901

lindyloo

lindyloo

master brummie
Hi,

Just wondering if anyone could help me please :)
I've spent the evening trying to figure out where about on the Coventry Road, my Gt Grandad Frank Frederick Taylor and his family actually lived. I tried to work it out sometime ago and for some reason thought 408 was by Wordsworth Road/ Coventry Road Junction, but having looked again I believe I was on the wrong side of the road.
I've looked at the census description for the area ( RG 13/2865, Aston>Deritend>District 91 ) and it says "The North side of Coventry Road from Grange Road, no.378 to Muntz Street, no. 494.
I thought maybe 494 was The Malt Shovel Pub, but the census seems to indicate a school ?

Number 408 now, is Saydon Pharmacy on Google Maps, but I doubt that that was the original position of 408...
Having searched through photos on the Forum and in a book on Small Heath that I have, I'm thinking the original 408, which was just named as "Edmunds" in the 1901 census (I can't read the type of business that it was) was probably knocked down and was then part of the site occupied by the Co-op ??
Unfortunately I have been unable to find any photographs of the actual area before the Co-op, but would really love to have an insight as to what it was like when my Great Grandparents lived there, pre Co-op days...there are photos from the junction of Grange Road/Coventry Road towards the City, but none that I can find in the opposite direction.

I have also looked at "Old Maps" but it isnt helping my plight..:stressed:
Any thoughts or help with this (and indeed any photos) will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks :)
 
Lindyloo
It is difficult to determine on old maps exactly where the numbering fitted in this immediate area, but 308 was between watts road and Grange road on the north side. If you supeeimpose the 1903 map on google earth then you get the map below. The red mark seems to be in the right place, and this marks Saydon's pharmacy. It therefore seems that this is the right position
Mike

1903_map_superimposed_on_google_earth.jpg
 
Hi berniew Thanks for your reply :) I had been browsing the Small Heath site for photos, but I didnt look at the 1956 listings, thinking it was too many years from 1901, but I went back and looked when you posted and it was indeed very helpful..lesson learnt !! thanks again.
 
Hi Lindyloo,

What a great photo they look so happy even in those hard times, wonder why GGrandad was dressed up!
 
Hi mikejee Thank you too for your reply and for the map :)
...Sorry if this sounds a bit daft but would the White areas on the map be 'open' land ?? because where the red mark is has white areas in front of the striped bits and I'm wondering if those buildings lay back from the road and were later extended forward to come level with the buildings either side...if that is the case then it would tie in with photographs taken in 1941 and Winter 1947 (which show the bomb damage done to the Co-op building on the left hand side,which lost its 2nd floor meeting hall) because the frontage at its roofline level is different to the buildings either side (I hope that makes sense...I know what I mean but I'm having trouble trying to write it so that its understandable ??)

I've spent most of the day looking at photo's, info and the census', trying to piece it all together and it has been really fascinating to see the changes that took place over the years., but I still can't pinpoint exactly where 408 was ...at least I now have a good idea though.
My Gt Grandad certainly got around a bit, he lived in Arthur Street as a child in 1881, Smith Street in 1891, then he and Gt Grandmother lived bk of 408 with 2 children and also my Gt x 2 Grandparents were there with one of their sons. By 1905 they were living at 30 Greenway Street, where my Nan was born and then in 1911 they were at 86 Cattell Road, after that they were at 113 Palace Road till at least 1939.

Lynne
 
Thanks the smiths :) they did look happy ...I have no idea why he was dressed up but had wondered what he was holding ? Thought maybe it was wedding attire and gt Grandad was the playing the part of The lucky sweep with his brush, but I guess I will never know sadly..
 
Hi again Bernie, thanks for the link.
From what I can gather from the photos I have seen this afternoon, the row of shops in the link replaced The Grange Cinema,... 408 and the Co-op site was further along toward Watts Road, but thanks again for finding the link for me :)
 
Hi Lindyloo the Grange was on the corner of Grange Road the row of shops would have been the Co op I will attempt toput up a pic of 1890 map .
Bernie
 
Lindyloo
Yes, near enough the white areas would be open.possible surfaced, but containing no permanent buildings. A lot of buildings which in early years had small gardens , or surfaced areas in front of them were extended in later years, particulalry where they became shops.
mike
 
berniew Thanks for the map, I have been studying that and many others but still havent quite worked it out so please bear with me. :)

mikegee Thanks for that :)

fatfingers Thanks for the great picture :) I believe the building on the left just past the white canopy was The Congregational Church, built 1868, demolished 1960, with Langley Road a little further down on the right. I have followed the 1901 from Gt Grandads 408 to the Church and I think it is a bit to far down as the dwelling next to it was number 476..but thanks so much for posting :)
 
Hi fatfingers, :) I got all excited when I saw the notification in my mail box that you'd posted again lol
Thank you so much for continuing to look for photos for me..it is most appreciated.
having studied the photo, I believe that it is actually of Whitmore Road itself not the Cov...see what you think

Whitmore_road_comparisson.jpg
 
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Yeah, your right. there would be at least one cafe if it was Coventry Rd as well. Obviously mis labelled, sorry to get your hopes up.

I have literally dozens of photos of Coventry Rd, mostly between the Park and Cattell Rd and of various eras, I'll have another look when I get time later. Definitely one or two that include Coronet Motors, so theres still a chance.
 
No worries fatfingers :) I enjoyed the challenge of finding out where it was anyway!! so thanks again..

That sounds like a wonderful collection of photos !! a proper treasure chest and the just right end of the street for me.
You've thrown me a bit with Coronet Motors as I am not sure where that was ...I remember a Car Showroom by Watts Road from passing that way on trips to town from my younger days....is that the one ? Its a carpet place now I believe??
Ive just looked at the kelly's for 1956 and see that The Grange Cinema belonged to Coronet Cinemas Ltd and that they also had another Cinema on the corner of Watts Road...I presume thats where the Coronet name comes from.. ??

The ideal photo for me would be one from around 1900/01 showing The Grange (House not cinema) and the buildings after it (later in 1901 the Co-op buildings) heading towards Watts Road, but I doubt that exists..I'm not that lucky !!
I am a bit confused by some info I have read in a book about Small Heath that I have, which has a photo of almost the exact area that I am looking for, but its around 1930. It says "View towards Grange Road, with the cinema, c 1930. This Co-op store was the first purpose built one in Birmingham and opened in 1901"
I'm almost convinced that 408 was on the Co-op site but just dont' know how Gtgrandad could have been living there if the Co-op was newly built ??

I have also found a photo in the book thats the opposite direction from the Congregational Church, to the one you posted, it's from the 1890's, but alas the Grange Road end is too far in the distance and there's a bloomin great Tram in the way !!!!

Thanks again for taking an interest :)
 
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Lindyloo
you don't always want to believe what books say unconditionally. In 1903 the coop was at 378 only . and there were several other shops between it and 408. In that year 408 was Mrs Annie Best , confectioner and Charles Best, shopfitter . The book writer probably knew there was a Coop there in about 1901, and assumed it was the same size as the later one, whereas actually it was quite small
 
The Coronet was on the corner of Watt Rd, and I think Coronet Motors was opposite, plus they had a showroom on the cormner of Whitmore Rd. When the Coronet was demolished, a large multi storey car showroom was built on the corner - Bristol St Motors Cardrome I think.

From what I remembert the Co Op took up most of the space between Grange Rd and Watts Rd, but thats before my time. The co Op photography, or maybe just the Parmacy Dept was on the corner at least till the mid 60s though.

Attached all that I think might interest you, even if its just to help you get a feel for the area, its better than nowt.

As the files are a bit large, I'll have to add a couple more in the next one.
 
Thanks Mike :thumbsup: thats another lesson learnt !! ...and "back of 408" being at the back of a confectioners/shopfitters (or another business as in 1901) seems more likely than round the back of the Co-op !!!
It does pose another question for me though..to do with numbering and renumbering...:confused2:

In 1891 the census shows 'The Grange' with occupants Hugh and Lucy Thomas. Hugh was a registered general medical practitioner. the next building was numbered 404, a Pawnbrokers, then 406 James Taplin, another practitioner and then it jumps to 410, Daniel Gladwell a retired Printer (I think) then it jumps again to 414 and then 418 both Clothiers ...could the reason for the jump in numbers be because some units were a double property ? ....which could fit with the 1903, 408 being a confectioners and a shopfitters....?

BUT in 1901 Lucy Thomas (widow of Hugh) is listed as occupying 378 and the Grange isnt recorded.
The next dwelling is numbered 402 (both being the proverbial spanner in the works !!)
Then 404 is William Wake, Hosiery manager...406 is Freeman & co, Boot manufacturer...408 appears labelled as Edmunds (can't read the business type) Then bk of 408 Gt Grandad, then 410 was Daniel Gladwell, retired Printer again...414 James Taplin RGMP (must have moved premises) 416 is a vacant plot and 418 is Henry French, China Dealer.....

1911 lists in one box 394-6-8,(could this be The Grange ?) 402-6, 400 collectively as Shops, Electric -----? Co-operative soc
then back of 402, private house. 404 shop etc
I have not found either the Grange or 378 ..hence my further confusion..did the numbers simply change to suit the property usage ??

Hope you can shed some light on this for me Mike if you can and wouldnt mind ...and if you havent fell asleep reading it !!! zzz
 
fatfingers, thank you ever so.. :)
some I have seen but some I havent, ...they certainly do help me get the feel of the place...thanks again
 
Lindyloo
Tthere can be several reasons for missing numbers, the two main ones being missing buildings and buildings taking up more than one plot.
Where a roadside site has not ben built on "they" (whoever they may be) seem to estimate how many house numbers to put in a stretch of road. If a building takes up a wider amount of space its number is officially (say) X,Y, incorporating both numbers. sometimes it is always written that way, but often gets shortened to X (or Y). To makr it more complicated, where a building is already present , but wider than 1 unit, it may be given just one number, even if it is a wide building taking up two plots. Wiyhout going into details of this case, Looking at the overlay map there is at least one wide building in that stretch.
In this case also the other reason applies. In Kellys (1892 The Grange is listed as no £78 (as in your census). You can see that between the Grange and the next building there is a lot of empty space. The Grange probably takes up more than one unit (but is called just 278). then there is a lot of empty space, which is assigned numbers, but these have (then) not been built on, so there is a large jump.
I hope i haven't confused you even more with my "explanation"
Mike
 
According the book " The Co-Op in Birmingham & the Black Country" - 1993 limite3d edition

"By 1901 the Co-Op hd made sufficient progress to think in terms of erecting purpose built shops rather than moving into existing premises.
No. 2 Branch at Small Heath was the first to benefit and tghe building was opened by William Roberts in Feb 1902. The large building was eventually flanked by ten other Co-Op shops forming a parade from 393-424 Coventry Road."

No2 had origibnally been opebned in jan 1882 at No.104 but later moved to 311 which was a single shop.
 
Just read further on - The Co-Op had always purchased existing shops, but in 1900 thet decided to to purchase a large plot of land on the Cov rd at Small Heath for a purpose built store of it's own design.
Ten shops were erected selling grocery, boots, tailoring, drapery and house furnishings. The site had its own electrticity generator (The municipal supply had not yet reached the area!).
A Co=Op hall was also provided. Finally opened Feb 1902.

Obviously whatever properties were there must have been purchased and demolished.
 
Mike...no you haven't confused me more, your explanation is wonderful ...I'm now unconfused (which is a rare occurance !!) Thank you so much for taking the time to help me out, it is most appreciated..

Brian....You found the book !!! :) Thanks so much for your time also..again, most appreciated..

fatfingers...according to the book I have, "all Co-op shops on the Coventry Road were designated Branch 2 wherever they were and however temporary."
I looked up number 311 in the 1911 and it was next to The Old Gate,..... maybe that's the one you are thinking of ??
 
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