Just found ten bar poles in Walsall Wood - too far afield ? Viv.
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Great Barr Cottage
- Thread starter oldMohawk
- Start date
oldMohawk
gone but not forgotten
It's not that far away but I would not call it Great Barr but perhaps the photographer was wrong with the caption. I've looked at the pics very interesting. The original pic is not hi res but looking at it again there seems to be houses behind the trees although I don't suppose it really assists in trying to find the location.
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oldMohawk
gone but not forgotten
I've noticed Walsall Wood High Street (where the 10 bar poles are) becomes Lichfield Road which heads for Watling Street (A5) as did the Chester Road. The A5 was the old main route to the north west and there are pics of large telephone poles on the A5. We really could do with a map of the routes of the old telephone pole trunk lines but perhaps there never was one or it was secret.
Bob Davis
Bob Davis
This beats any TV soap and has been wonderful viewing over the past few days, so please keep it going and get the answer, but .......pause for Devil's Gallop (Dick Barton) or Coronation Scot Paul Temple), in the picture of the Aston Cafe posted earlier today, there is a Telegraph Pole with 14 bars......Alexa the smelling salts.
Happy New Year to all of you and Radiorails thanks for flying the flag of the Devon Army of Independence. Us'll rool the world yet and Dexit will 'happen.
Bob
Happy New Year to all of you and Radiorails thanks for flying the flag of the Devon Army of Independence. Us'll rool the world yet and Dexit will 'happen.
Bob
There is now a thread dealing exclusively with the Bishop Asbury Cottage here https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/index.php?threads/asbury-cottage-newton.48459/#post-608628
Viv
Viv
Radiorails
master brummie
I came across this photo in the Inkerman Street thread I wonder if there was a family connection with the Asbury's of Newton.
Pedrocut
Master Barmmie
For reference 1851...
"Great Barr, three miles SE of Walsall, is a pleasant village, seated on the declivity of the lofty Barr Beacon, which stretches itself out to a considerable extent, and seems like a vast barrier to the country beyond it. The township and chapelry of Great Barr is now a separate ecclesiastical district, and contains 4960 acres and 1087 souls.
It includes many scattered houses, and the hamlets of Hardwick, Margaret's Lane, Scott's Arms, Snail's Green, Little Aston and Questlett, extending eastward to the extensive heath of Sutton Coldfield. Lord Leigh is lord of the manor, but most of the soil belongs to other proprietors, the largest of whom is Sir Edward Dolman Scott, Bart, who resides at Barr Hall, formerly called Nether House.
Red House, near Snail's Green, is a neat seat belonging to Robert Scott, Esq but occupied by Thomas Bagnall, Esq. On the north side of the chapelry is Aldridge Lodge, the seat of the Rev TB Adams, and near it is a small lake called Bourn Pool, an ancient moated house, and the Hayhead lime works, from which there is a branch to the Wyrley and Essington Canal "
[From History, Gazetteer and Directory of Staffordshire, William White, Sheffield, 1851]
"Great Barr, three miles SE of Walsall, is a pleasant village, seated on the declivity of the lofty Barr Beacon, which stretches itself out to a considerable extent, and seems like a vast barrier to the country beyond it. The township and chapelry of Great Barr is now a separate ecclesiastical district, and contains 4960 acres and 1087 souls.
It includes many scattered houses, and the hamlets of Hardwick, Margaret's Lane, Scott's Arms, Snail's Green, Little Aston and Questlett, extending eastward to the extensive heath of Sutton Coldfield. Lord Leigh is lord of the manor, but most of the soil belongs to other proprietors, the largest of whom is Sir Edward Dolman Scott, Bart, who resides at Barr Hall, formerly called Nether House.
Red House, near Snail's Green, is a neat seat belonging to Robert Scott, Esq but occupied by Thomas Bagnall, Esq. On the north side of the chapelry is Aldridge Lodge, the seat of the Rev TB Adams, and near it is a small lake called Bourn Pool, an ancient moated house, and the Hayhead lime works, from which there is a branch to the Wyrley and Essington Canal "
[From History, Gazetteer and Directory of Staffordshire, William White, Sheffield, 1851]
oldMohawk
gone but not forgotten
I've searched across old maps and images for hours and cannot identify the location of the scene in the picture. I've started to wonder whether the title on the picture is correct. I think it will join the collection of forum pictures for which we have never been able to identify locations .... 
I too believe it's wrongly labelled Phil. But the journey was fun !
A great description of Great Barr Pedro. I believe there's lots more interesting history to uncover in this area (and Perry Barr). Having grown up in Kingstanding, it's especially interesting. So thanks to all who've contributed to this thread. Kept me occupied in the lull after Christmas too ! Viv.
A great description of Great Barr Pedro. I believe there's lots more interesting history to uncover in this area (and Perry Barr). Having grown up in Kingstanding, it's especially interesting. So thanks to all who've contributed to this thread. Kept me occupied in the lull after Christmas too ! Viv.
Radiorails
master brummie
Of interest what is the provenance of the picture in Post 1? The one we have not identified despite almost 100 posts (not including the Asbury connection) 
i dont think that just because we have not cracked it we should assume its a wrong caption although of course it could be...there must be a lot of lanes and roads not yet looked at and quite a lot were not given proper names until after the photos were taken..the building next to the cottage could just as easily be a school hall rather than a church..the girls in the photo could have just come out of school..certainly one of the girls looks to be holding something...maybe books.... anyhow ive had a little break and i was just looking at what is now old oscott hill
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=52.5483&lon=-1.8925&layers=6&b=1
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=52.5483&lon=-1.8925&layers=6&b=1
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oldMohawk
gone but not forgotten
I first saw the pic about 4 years ago on ebay postcard sales. I looked at it and thought nice photo but insufficient detail to identify it. I recently saw a copy which someone had uploaded to the web, looked at it and thought not many roads in Great Barr had such large multiwire telephone poles so we simply needed to find the roads in the district with such poles.Of interest what is the provenance of the picture in Post 1? The one we have not identified despite almost 100 posts (not including the Asbury connection)
As you say, 100 posts later we have not found the location although it has been interesting and even generated another thread about Bishop Asbury's cottage. So the pic joins the list of forum pics which we have never been able to identify. Below is an existing forum pic in the district with telephone poles ... but too many bars and we know it's location in Perry Barr ...
image from https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/index.php?threads/boars-head-inn.8309/page-3#post-562343
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Pedrocut
Master Barmmie
For sake of argument take the centre of Great Barr as the Scott Arms....travelling in a northerly direction along the Birmingham Road we would arrive at Walsall, to the south towards Birmingham on the Walsall Road we would come to Perry Barr, to the west along the Newton Road would be West Bromwich, and to the east along Queslett Road would be Sutton. There is also the Old Chester Road travelling more or less N-S.
The telephones poles suggest a main route but there doesn’t seem anything along the above roads that fits the bill. There are quite of few other lanes and roads within this area, but at the time of the picture they are sparsely developed, and I can only find one place that comes somewhere near it, being the Wesleyan Chapel and Sunday School, which today would be in Sundial Lane.
However the footpath is on the wrong side of the lane. Just out of interest, if you look at the 1885 Map there is a tree at the end of the lane by the Chapel. This seems to have been preserved inside a small circular wall. Also shown is a coniferous tree, and there is a tree on the other side of the Chapel.
The telephones poles suggest a main route but there doesn’t seem anything along the above roads that fits the bill. There are quite of few other lanes and roads within this area, but at the time of the picture they are sparsely developed, and I can only find one place that comes somewhere near it, being the Wesleyan Chapel and Sunday School, which today would be in Sundial Lane.
However the footpath is on the wrong side of the lane. Just out of interest, if you look at the 1885 Map there is a tree at the end of the lane by the Chapel. This seems to have been preserved inside a small circular wall. Also shown is a coniferous tree, and there is a tree on the other side of the Chapel.
Radiorails
master brummie
I have been giving a little thought to this. Lyn knows I don't give up easily. Based on some of the comments on this long thread I believe - but only a supposition as I do not know the area - that the cottages were where these buildings are now. Mention in the thread was made of a church, which looked 'white' in appearance in the photo. The original church was one built in 1823 and rebuilt in the late 1860's and re-opened in 1917. I believe that to be the one in the attached link.
https://greatbarr.wordpress.com/amenities/churches/newton-united-reform-church/
I posted this link before but repetition here may help.
It will be seen that another church was built on the opposite side of the road in 1932 as that is still there at the junction of Hamstead Road and Newton Road.
The children presumably might have just left - or were going - to school, there was a suggestion in a previous posts about books, however as there are only three it might be that they were coming (or leaving) a Sunday school.
The cottage in question has only one doorway, so it is not a small place and might have been school - it looks like the door is open, but so is a window so a warm sunny day no doubt. This is just my two 'pennorth so maybe someone will prove or disprove these things.
I know maps, old and fairly new, have been posted but I am not sure whether any maps of this particular area have been posted, if not some might help.
Based on some of the comments on this long thread I believe - but only a supposition as I do not know the area - that the cottages were where these buildings are now. Mention in the thread was made of a church, which looked 'white' in appearance in the photo. The original church was one built in 1823 and rebuilt in the late 1860's and re-opened in 1917. I believe that to be the one in the attached link.https://greatbarr.wordpress.com/amenities/churches/newton-united-reform-church/
I posted this link before but repetition here may help.
It will be seen that another church was built on the opposite side of the road in 1932 as that is still there at the junction of Hamstead Road and Newton Road.
The children presumably might have just left - or were going - to school, there was a suggestion in a previous posts about books, however as there are only three it might be that they were coming (or leaving) a Sunday school.
The cottage in question has only one doorway, so it is not a small place and might have been school - it looks like the door is open, but so is a window so a warm sunny day no doubt. This is just my two 'pennorth so maybe someone will prove or disprove these things.
I know maps, old and fairly new, have been posted but I am not sure whether any maps of this particular area have been posted, if not some might help.
thanks pedro and alan...yet more theories to ponder on....even if we never find concrete evidence of the location of this photo threads like this are good for the forum and our members...keeps the little grey cells ticking over and get members involved...with mysteries such as this what i try to do is have a little break from them for a while then come back to it...i also have a feeling that somewhere down the line this photo will turn up again but with the exact location on it....
lyn
lyn
Bob Davis
Bob Davis
Is this a photo or a postcard? If the latter, then if no publisher/photographer on the back, then are there any Birmingham PC collectors, members of the BHF, who can recognise the style of lettering in the title. Pedrocut obviously like myself knows the problem of the postcard that has a title on it but now 100 years later, the location cannot be identified and lets face it as I said earlier this has been an enthralling theme. If there is a postcard club in Birmingham, someone there may well collect Great Barr and know this card. Just trying to keep the ball rolling. Similarly is it possible the picture could be put in the Birmingham Mail with the query where is this?thanks pedro and alan...yet more theories to ponder on....even if we never find concrete evidence of the location of this photo threads like this are good for the forum and our members...keeps the little grey cells ticking over and get members involved...with mysteries such as this what i try to do is have a little break from them for a while then come back to it...i also have a feeling that somewhere down the line this photo will turn up again but with the exact location on it....
lyn
Bob
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oldMohawk
gone but not forgotten
I know the area well and used to drive along the Newton Road twice a day in the 1990s. The contours of that part of the Newton Road do not match the rather flat contours of the Cottage Photo.I have been giving a little thought to this. Lyn knows I don't give up easily.
https://greatbarr.wordpress.com/amenities/churches/newton-united-reform-church/
I posted this link before but repetition here may help.
It will be seen that another church was built on the opposite side of the road in 1932 as that is still there at the junction of Hamstead Road and Newton Road.
The children presumably might have just left - or were going - to school, there was a suggestion in a previous posts about books, however as there are only three it might be that they were coming (or leaving) a Sunday school.
The cottage in question has only one doorway, so it is not a small place and might have been school - it looks like the door is open, but so is a window so a warm sunny day no doubt. This is just my two 'pennorth so maybe someone will prove or disprove these things.
View attachment 121819
Looking at the OS 25 Inch 1892-1914 map below there is no church shown on the western corner of Hamstead Rd and an 'Institute' on the eastern corner. Maps can be wrong but I've usually found these maps correct when checking other features.
Just one other point about Voices of Great Barr website, if you click on their link 'Voices of Beeches Estate' you see a photo of a Beeches Pub which is actually the Beeches Pub Northfield ... a major error which I have commented about previously on the BHF. With reference to the photos of the churches on the VOGB site I do not understand their comments about churches on opposite corners and perhaps someone can mark the site of the original and replacement churches on the map.
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This photo appeared on Facebook in 2015 and no firm conclusion was reached there either, although the person who suggested the first one claimed to have a similar picture in the archives (whatever that means). Suggestions put forward included:
Aldridge Rd with Perry Barr on the left
Newton Road near the Scott Arms
Queslett Rd after leaving the lights at the Scott Arms, there were period houses on the right just before Whitecrest Rd
Great Barr Methodist Church might be just behind the house
Near the church at the junction of Walsall and Hamstead Roads
But unlike BHF, there was no rigorous searching around any of these suggestions. Viv.
Aldridge Rd with Perry Barr on the left
Newton Road near the Scott Arms
Queslett Rd after leaving the lights at the Scott Arms, there were period houses on the right just before Whitecrest Rd
Great Barr Methodist Church might be just behind the house
Near the church at the junction of Walsall and Hamstead Roads
But unlike BHF, there was no rigorous searching around any of these suggestions. Viv.
oldMohawk
gone but not forgotten
As mentioned in post#105 I first saw it on the ebay postcard sales site 3 or 4 years ago and it must have been sold because it is not on ebay now ...
And us ! We're all human after all - lol. Viv
PS but hasn't this exploration been interesting ?
PS but hasn't this exploration been interesting ?
Pedrocut
Master Barmmie
As mentioned in post#105 I first saw it on the ebay postcard sales site 3 or 4 years ago and it must have been sold because it is not on ebay now ...
The postcards on ebay, if sold in any number can be a nice little earner. On another Blog it has been seen that incorrect titles have been added.
Radiorails
master brummie
The church, extant, on the left was not built until 1932 so would not appear on an 1892 - 1914 map. The institute might be the former church which was built in 1860's and was re-opened in 1917. What I don't know is when it ceased to be used as a church, during the period after being built 1860 until the 1917 re-opening. That might, I believe, be the reason it was used as in institute.
it certainly has viv....and as we travel along trying to solve the mystery we are learning and finding out new things as well...
lyn
Pedrocut
Master Barmmie
Just to take a few steps backward. The Thread started with the interesting original picture posted by OldM of a cottage marked in Great Barr. In trying to locate it we came across Francis Asbury, a chap that had not featured on the Forum before, but could feature in the “Greats associated with Birmingham.” Quite rightly a new Thread was started for Asbury’s Cottage.
The problem with sites like the “Voices” seems to be that it is difficult to correct their mistakes, and so the mistakes perpetuate. There is nothing wrong with making a mistake and if we can continually add information we can get nearer to the truth.
Somewhere I have come across the story of the “Institute” so will have to go backwards again.
The problem with sites like the “Voices” seems to be that it is difficult to correct their mistakes, and so the mistakes perpetuate. There is nothing wrong with making a mistake and if we can continually add information we can get nearer to the truth.
Somewhere I have come across the story of the “Institute” so will have to go backwards again.
oldMohawk
gone but not forgotten
Although the image is fairly low res I had a go at with a photo editor and can see a hint of a gable end of another building beyond the 'church'. If there is a building there it appears to be in a fenced area.
Unfortunately it does not show very clearly when posted ...
Unfortunately it does not show very clearly when posted ...