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Grammar schools and comprehensives in Birmingham in the 50s and 60s.

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I have said this before but... my Mom was a stay at home mom as were most of my friends moms in the 50s. Then she suddenly got a part time job. It was years afterwards when I realised she must have done it so they could afford my uniform (plus a few extras) when I passed my 11+ for the grammar school.
To save, my blazer and mac were too large in first year - sleeves down to my knuckles. When I left 7 years later I still had the same mac and blazer - sleeves now up my arms. Good job I didn't grow too much.
 
Lyn,

Just drifting marginally off topic, I wonder how many kids got to their final year of grammar school and knew what they wanted to do as a job/career. I know I certainly didn't. Obviously some went with a specific career in mind, but my mother made several suggestions, including Thos Cook which I spent 18 months with when I moved to Dorset, but nothing had any sort of appeal. I was on the point of leaving when my mother saw that the Council were advertising for clerical workers, and by the September I was working in the Cashier's Office of BCT.

Possibly the most unsettling thing was knowing that I would be breaking for two years National Service only 18 months later. Before that I was acquisescent with whatever they wanted to do with me. After two years in the RAF I was a bit more rebellious and two years later I had quit and moved to Lucas in GKS. They say that National Service made a man of you and I would certainly agree.

Maurice :cool:
 
Astoness said:
very good points raised maurice...i did not pass my 11 plus but being the eldest of 6 children i doubt very much if mom and dad would have afforded for me to go to grammar school..however knowing how keen i was to work in an office they managed to let me stay on to take my cse exams of which shorthand and typing was a must for office work...i passed with flying colours and got the office job i wanted..i wonder just how many children passed the 11 plus but due to financial circumstances could not go to the grammar schools...i only recall one friend who passed and was able to go through grammar school and she was an only child..
lyn
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Very true, Lyn. The reasons would no doubt usually be financial but occasionally, alas, it must have been the closed mind of parents who couldn't grasp the opportunity being afforded to their child. And especially to a DAUGHTER......

There was another consideration which has been mentioned previously, that of geography. My own mother was offered a place at Warwick in about 1912 - turned down by herself, it seems, because of the distance from her home in Knowle. Then went to Lawrence's College in Corporation Street, no doubt to learn what you did.

(We should know a bit more about all this, had we access to the work done, with a bit of help from us, by the disappeared member whom I mentioned above!)

Chris
 
pjmburns said:
I have said this before but... my Mom was a stay at home mom as were most of my friends moms in the 50s. Then she suddenly got a part time job. It was years afterwards when I realised she must have done it so they could afford my uniform (plus a few extras) when I passed my 11+ for the grammar school.
To save, my blazer and mac were too large in first year - sleeves down to my knuckles. When I left 7 years later I still had the same mac and blazer - sleeves now up my arms. Good job I didn't grow too much.
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:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

lyn
 
My dad was absolutely adamant that I’d get a good education, preferably with a science emphasis as he imagined me and my brother going into electronics or computing even as far back as the 1960s.

Both mum and dad always worked even from when I was very small, us being handed over to a childminder until school age. Obviously they had ambitions for me and my brother, but especially for me, I think, to direct me away from the traditional housewife/mother route.

The plan didn’t really work though. My brother was kicked out of Grammar School. And for me, it wasn’t entirely successful either, as, although a perfect angel for the years up to O levels, I had just had enough of it all by VI Form and was constantly skiving off throughout my A levels. Although obviously ‘able’ I was really a square peg in a round hole.

Even when you have the money for uniform (via the Provident cheque) and the opportunity to go to Grammar School it’s not guaranteed to make you more successful in life, a fact that my dad failed to grasp. What would have been more helpful would have been to look at what really interested me and choose the right school for me. Being told you don’t have to be and can’t always be brilliant at everything would also have been helpful. Hence striving to achieve my dads ambitions coupled with that of a Grammar school ethos, was almost the ruin of me.

Fortunately I survived and had a long Civil Service career. Not what I would necessarily have chosen, but it paid the rent ! If I’d had the choice I would have studied creative subjects (to my dads horror) and feel sure I’d have had a satisfying and successful career that way. But the damage was done early on and it was consequently less easy to change direction in those days.

Viv.
 
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hi viv your post has prompted me to just say that i will always be grateful to our mom and dad who allowed me to stay on for a year at school when i could quite easily have been at work doing a job i did not like and bringing in much needed extra money into the large household.... passing those exams enabled me to do a job i enjoyed doing until at the age of 33 my first child came along...i think dad recognised the fact that it is important to try and get into a job we will like..not always possible for everyone of course...dad worked mostly indoors in factories during the winter months but in the summer months he would go back to his window cleaning rounds..he was always happier working outdoors and hated being stuck inside

lyn
 
Janice, my blazer was too big at the start and only just "fitted where it touched" as I left school! Your story is so much like mine, it was wonderful to have new clothes as I was used to hand-me-downs from my cousin but she went to a different school.
We had a visit from the Careers Officer who was very sarcastic when I said I wanted to go into catering, I was told that it would be very different from cooking a batch of cakes for Sunday tea!! My domestic science teacher was lovely and I had the Cookery prize the year I left. My cousin was told he should be in "Town and Country planning" but he eventually became a deputy headteacher!!
rosie.
 
rosie said:
Janice, my blazer was too big at the start and only just "fitted where it touched" as I left school! Your story is so much like mine, it was wonderful to have new clothes as I was used to hand-me-downs from my cousin but she went to a different school.
We had a visit from the Careers Officer who was very sarcastic when I said I wanted to go into catering, I was told that it would be very different from cooking a batch of cakes for Sunday tea!! My domestic science teacher was lovely and I had the Cookery prize the year I left. My cousin was told he should be in "Town and Country planning" but he eventually became a deputy headteacher!!
rosie.
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As an only child I was lucky but my grammar uniform could only be bought from The Donne (think that is how it was spelt) or, later, Rackhams and you couldn't buy a blazer from elsewhere as it had pale blue piping all round it and the badge was woven on.
I became a teacher - always my ambition from the moment I started school. However, I had to resist pushing by my teachers to go to university and opted for a teacher training college instead. I did feel comprehensives were a bit more open to different careers for pupils whereas grammars seemed to push the more academic route which is not for everyone.
 
rosehill said:
I took the 11 plus in 1965 whilst attending Manor Park Junior School in Aston. After we returned the form showing King Edwards Grammar School, Handsworth as first choice of of grammar school, my mum was called in to see my head teacher who tried to persuade her that no pupil from Aston stood any chance of getting to such a prestigious school so she should put another one first. She stuck to her guns, I passed and got a place at KEGSH. Only two of us passed the 11 plus and the other pupil went to Handsworth Grammar for Boys.
I know that my parents found it a struggle to pay for all the uniform I had to have and I had to wear blouses, skirts etc that were all far too big for me so that they would (and did) last me right through to the sixth form. I particularly remember that we had to have both indoor and outdoor shoes and my indoor ones were white (probably bought in a sale) that Mum dyed brown, they looked awful!
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I started KEGSH in 1957. My indoor shoes were not precisely as 'suggested' and so I was hounded daily, first by the headmistress as I left assembly and then by any staff member who chose to pick on me. No-one contacted my parents in those days....they humiliated ME. I'm almost 75 now and still believe that this experience destroyed my desire to do well in school and indeed, changed my personality. Here's a quote that still rings in my ears: 'And...er...WHAT are those?' 'My indoor shoes Miss Bamforth'. 'Remove them orf'.
 
Toronto Brummie,

I'm guessing that my late father-in-law was the caretaker when you were there- silver-haired guy who used to be in the Salvation Army Band.

Maurice :cool:
 
TorontoBrummie said:
I started KEGSH in 1957. My indoor shoes were not precisely as 'suggested' and so I was hounded daily, first by the headmistress as I left assembly and then by any staff member who chose to pick on me. No-one contacted my parents in those days....they humiliated ME. I'm almost 75 now and still believe that this experience destroyed my desire to do well in school and indeed, changed my personality. Here's a quote that still rings in my ears: 'And...er...WHAT are those?' 'My indoor shoes Miss Bamforth'. 'Remove them orf'.
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Quite disgraceful. Tougher times at school then, not so kid-glove, but even so.....

The reminder of sole outlets etc. for special, and probably over-priced, uniforms makes me wonder whether that was where all the football clubs later got the idea. But at the time the schools at least had the decency not to change everything each year!

Chris
 
On the other hand Chris, as the kids grew , unless the parents were savvy like Rosie's, there likely had to be new uniforms regularly in schools also
 
So interesting to hear peoples memories and surprised at how different their school memories are from mine. For some reason Examinations and the dreaded 11+ nwver really worried me. I must have been an intolerable swat at school as coming anything other than first or second would make me burst into tears. My entire primary school days were a continual warfare between myself and a girl called Valery (sorry I cannot recall her surname nearly 70 years later). Test records were broken repeatedly as we strived to be best.

At the tender age of 10 we sat the 11+ and both went on to grammar schools. At that time there were virtually no co-educational schools other than a few very lowly regarded secondary modern schools. I went to King Edwards, first at Five Ways then at Bartley Green when they moved there. Valerie went to a girls Grammar and we lost touch.

School, at a boys grammar school was enormous fun and this little swat flourished in the open atmosphere. Maybe losing ground academically I still managed to coral some nine O levels and three A levels before leaving just before my 17th Birthday. It was not, however the academic that flourished. Blessed with inspirational teachers who thought nothing of giving their time we boys had our lives enriched by some wonderful men. At various times during those formative years I, like many other boys of that time, was inspired to read and perform Shakespearian drama, acting in the school presentation of Julius Caeser albeit in a minor role. But then to broaden our lives we produced 'The Pirates of Penzance' and revelled in the fun of light operetta. Then there was the Cadet Corps where those two stalwarts Elo Osmend and Bog Roll Williams tried to instil military discipline and much more besides into callow boys who would soon be called upon to "do their bit" for Queen and Country. It really seemed to matter back then. I have not touched upon the debating society or the Theologicicl discussions. Sport was interesting and we must have been amongst the last boys to learn to play Eton Fives and of course we spurned the use of a glove. We were no public school softies.
I have rambled on rather but before I finish there are two members of staff worthy of a special mention "Sammy" Frampton, who I am sure must have been beyond normal retirement age who showed those of us who listened how figures are fun and that understanding maths is something we all should do. The other is my headmaster Guy Burgess. A true gentleman who could and maybe should have pushed me harder. I recall a certain meeting when I and a few friends were to be punished for some not inconsiderable misdemeanour. I stood quaking outside his office as my two co-perpetrators were caned, wondering why I had been left till last. Called through as my sobbing cronies left I was astonished to be asked to sit. He told me that he felt I was by far the most guilty as I understood what we had done. The others had been beaten to underline their guilt, but he would not allow me that satisfaction. I had to realise that my actions had not only hurt the person we jointly had targeted but also now my 'friends' and that I was solely responsible for those hurts and would now have to live with that. It took me some time to absorb and learn that lesson, but it has shaped and defined so much of my life.
 
Thanks for that, daithelife. It sounds as though you were one of those children who entered secondary school at an unusually early age - for any of a number of reasons - so that whilst still only sixteen you had grabbed some "A" levels. Was there any age restriction imposed on you when you were ready for your "O"s? Were you allowed to take them at 14 or 15?

Which years are we talking about, by the way?

Chris
 
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chris daithelife said he was just shy of 17 when he took his exams not sure how close to 17 though...having not taken those exams i am not sure how they worked age wise

nice post daithelife

lyn
 
Have corrected my wording a bit, Lyn. It wasn't clear. The question I'm asking, really, was whether, like me, daithelife was prevented from taking his "O" levels when he was ready for them and had to wait until the age of sixteen - all because of a disgraceful, immediately effective, edict by Government or Local Authority, designed to protect children from being "pushed" too early but taking no account whatsoever of the wellbeing of those below-age unfortunates already in the system.

Chris
 
Thanks Chris, memory fades a little after so long but I went to KE Five Ways in 1956 and took my O levels in two batches , one in 1960 and a second batch in 1961. I am not at all sure but suspect this was some ruse to get around a ruling that one should not be exam fodder. I took my A levels at age 16 which caused a few raised eyebrows. However it was impossible top gain access to university at such tender age and I did not complete my education until after retirement, not earning a bachelors degree until after I retired.
 
Mention of career officers reminded me of a time a bit later.

The careers officer at a local school here arranged a minibus for the school leavers and took them round the local offices and factories to give them an idea of the jobs market, the kids refused to get off the bus and go in saying "It's a waste of time Mr Wilson said there will be no jobs in the future, unemployment and leisure will be the norm."

At the time Mr Wilson was the Prime Minister.
 
Chris,

It sounds as you were like me. I went to Moseley in 1947 and should have taken my O Levels in 1952, but I wasm't 16 until the following January so we had to do another year scrambled together from all four streams of those younger kids. The problem then was that we then couldn't take Physics and either Chemistry or Biology, but had to take General Science 1 & General Science 2, and a third of each paper comprised a subject which we had dropped at the end of the first year. If you wanted to go into medicine, you needed both chemistry and biology as well as physics and were therefore screwed.

Those of us who are still in touch still moan about that and say someone should have been shot for that stupid decision. That was what made me finally give up on school in that last year - a disastrous policy. Penalised because of the date we were born.

Maurice :cool:
 
sospiri said:
Chris,

It sounds as you were like me. I went to Moseley in 1947 and should have taken my O Levels in 1952, but I wasm't 16 until the following January so we had to do another year scrambled together from all four streams of those younger kids. The problem then was that we then couldn't take Physics and either Chemistry or Biology, but had to take General Science 1 & General Science 2, and a third of each paper comprised a subject which we had dropped at the end of the first year. If you wanted to go into medicine, you needed both chemistry and biology as well as physics and were therefore screwed.

Those of us who are still in touch still moan about that and say someone should have been shot for that stupid decision. That was what made me finally give up on school in that last year - a disastrous policy. Penalised because of the date we were born.

Maurice :cool:
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Was that in the the times before capital punishment was abolished?
 
Hi daithelife. You did very well at Grammar School. May I ask if you were an only-child? There have been some suggestions on this thread that only-children were more likely to be financed by their parents (paying for uniforms and sports kit etc) to get into Grammar School and perhaps, also. they were more focussed on achieving good exam results. A slight diversion, but of the last 15 Prime Ministers there has been just one who was an only child, Theresa May. I'm an only child myself and found passing exams relatively easy but working in a team, as presumably necessary for PMs. harder.
 
Hi Farmer Dave, no I was not an only child> I had a brother some fifteen months younger but we were just about as different as it is possible to be. Educationally he saw the other extreme of education in those days being condemned (I am sure that is the correct verb to use) to life in the dreaded 'Secondary Modern', which meant he could not take any O levels and was expected to become yet more factory floor fodder. He was on fact enormously gifted with his hands becoming a silversmith and then as fashion changed he requalified as a true carpenter and worked making beautiful bespoke furniture for the very wealthy.
I really wonder how much talent we wasted back in those days. I admit freely that I was lucky that I matched the model the Government of the time seemed to desire whereas we ignored our skilled artisans of the future and condemned so many of them to a life of frustration as manafacturing inevitably went overseas for its cheap labour.
 
daithelife said:
Hi Farmer Dave, no I was not an only child> I had a brother some fifteen months younger but we were just about as different as it is possible to be. Educationally he saw the other extreme of education in those days being condemned (I am sure that is the correct verb to use) to life in the dreaded 'Secondary Modern', which meant he could not take any O levels and was expected to become yet more factory floor fodder. He was on fact enormously gifted with his hands becoming a silversmith and then as fashion changed he requalified as a true carpenter and worked making beautiful bespoke furniture for the very wealthy.
I really wonder how much talent we wasted back in those days. I admit freely that I was lucky that I matched the model the Government of the time seemed to desire whereas we ignored our skilled artisans of the future and condemned so many of them to a life of frustration as manafacturing inevitably went overseas for its cheap labour.
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The inequalities caused by he tripartite system was the driving force behind the comprehensive school system. I have experienced the secondary modern and the grammar schools as a pupil and the comprehensive school system as a teacher for nearly 40 years I have no doubt that the comprehensive schools give wider opportunities to a greater proportion of children.
 
I am sorry Pedrocut, I realise reading back my post it seems very dismissive which was the exact opposite of my intentions. I really meant it was such a shame that so many were denied opportunities merely because they "failed" a test which we now know was biased toward the comfortable middle class. Over the years I have met and come to know many skilled artisans who had to overcome far to often, prejudice because of their background and education. My intention was to say how the powers to be tried to limit opportunity forthe many.
 
Of course, a lot depended upon the pupil, irrespective of what type of school they were in. My slightly younger brother went to a secondary modern, which became a comprehensive, and was quite happy there, stayed out of trouble, and became an electrician via the apprenticeship schome. He worked abroad for of a couple of years, picked up many metalworking skills, and eventually was running a small unit which involved manatgements skills as well.

There are troublemakers in every type of school, who not only learn very little themselves, but unfortunately disrupt the education of the rest in the class. They're also not always the dimmest of pupils as I can think of two at Moseley, who were not only academically bright enough to pass the 11+, but were also vindictive enough to cause a lot of trouble. One just bullied many of his fellow pupils, but managed to stay the course - just - and is now in South Africa, whilst the other seemed to be picking physical fights with teachers. I was present on one occasion whem the teacher, ex-military, was cheered on by the pupils as the pupil got a well-deserved walloping. As a result the pupil got thrown out of the school, but now in these undisciplined days, I fear the teacher would have been dismissed and that would have been quite unjustified.

Maurice :cool:
 
I'm not sure I agree that the 11+ was biased towards the comfortable middle classes.
I passed the exam and went to Grammar school but as far as I recall my classmates and I were all from ordinary working class families.

Edit, I'm not saying that it's right that children should be categorised at the age of 11.
 
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