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Gosta Green Through Duddeston
- Thread starter GER22VAN
- Start date
john knight
signman
Morning Lyn,
I had seen that picture before and was considering it, but in Phils photo,
you would have seen St. Mathews church, I think it's still a distinct possibility that you've nailed it.Regards John.
I had seen that picture before and was considering it, but in Phils photo,
you would have seen St. Mathews church, I think it's still a distinct possibility that you've nailed it.Regards John.
john knight
signman
Lyn,
Upon closer inspection of the photos you can just see the drain cover in the centre of the road in both photos, for me that does it-congratulations.
John.
Upon closer inspection of the photos you can just see the drain cover in the centre of the road in both photos, for me that does it-congratulations.
John.
Phil
Gone, but not forgotten.
John & Lyn
I hate to throw a spanner in the works but I don't think either photos are of the same shop.
1497 & 1500 are very similar but there are differences. Look at the door & window arrangement to the right there are differences that would have taken structural alterations to make.
In 1499 As Lyn says St Matthews church was built in 1840 so it would have been in view on the original photo. Also there is a marked difference in the roofline.
I still think there is a good case for it being the corner of Francis St before the Public Baths were built.
The only thing against this is the Photo of the Vine public house on that corner. The thing is the 1913 Kelly's Directory doesen't mention it and only mentions a beer retailer on the opposite corner of Francis St/Willis St.
Strange
Phil
I hate to throw a spanner in the works but I don't think either photos are of the same shop.
1497 & 1500 are very similar but there are differences. Look at the door & window arrangement to the right there are differences that would have taken structural alterations to make.
In 1499 As Lyn says St Matthews church was built in 1840 so it would have been in view on the original photo. Also there is a marked difference in the roofline.
I still think there is a good case for it being the corner of Francis St before the Public Baths were built.
The only thing against this is the Photo of the Vine public house on that corner. The thing is the 1913 Kelly's Directory doesen't mention it and only mentions a beer retailer on the opposite corner of Francis St/Willis St.
Strange
Phil
Attachments
hi phil..had a good look and i think i have to agree with you...pretty certain my photos are of lupin and willis streets... but looking at the difference in the roof line i still think we may have a mystery on our hands...
if someone can tell me what other junctions there was with willis street i will see if i have any pics of them..
lyn
if someone can tell me what other junctions there was with willis street i will see if i have any pics of them..
lyn
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Phil
Gone, but not forgotten.
Good Morning to you Lyn,
Yes I understand that 1497 & 1500 are the same photo, its just to my mind the larger one confirms what I have said that it not the shop in the original photo.
St Matthews Church was in Willis St so the in the photo at 1499 shows the shop as being on the East side of Willis St. When the original shows it on the West side. All the streets and roads cutting through Willis St had a gentle incline West to East.
Phil
Yes I understand that 1497 & 1500 are the same photo, its just to my mind the larger one confirms what I have said that it not the shop in the original photo.
St Matthews Church was in Willis St so the in the photo at 1499 shows the shop as being on the East side of Willis St. When the original shows it on the West side. All the streets and roads cutting through Willis St had a gentle incline West to East.
Phil
yep i agree phil...so like i said in my last post if you can give me the names of the roads/sts that were off willis st i will have a look to see if i have any pics in me collection...i love these mysteries even though i am no good at them..lol
lyn
lyn
Phil
Gone, but not forgotten.
Lyn
I think if somebody can prove or disprove the location of the Vine Inn on the corner of Francis St/Willis St. I keep coming up with a shop at that location No 45 Willis St prior to the building of the Public Baths.
I thought I had listed the crossroads, they were St James St (T junction) Great Brook St, Ashted Row, Francis St, Heneage St, Lupin St (all cross roads) Great Lister St.
I suppose it is possible that it could have been St James St and the street going off to the left is Willis St. There would have been a slight up incline towards Great Brook St there.
Phil
I think if somebody can prove or disprove the location of the Vine Inn on the corner of Francis St/Willis St. I keep coming up with a shop at that location No 45 Willis St prior to the building of the Public Baths.
I thought I had listed the crossroads, they were St James St (T junction) Great Brook St, Ashted Row, Francis St, Heneage St, Lupin St (all cross roads) Great Lister St.
I suppose it is possible that it could have been St James St and the street going off to the left is Willis St. There would have been a slight up incline towards Great Brook St there.
Phil
Phil
The caption states that the beerhouse was run by Ted Rooke. The unnamed beer retailer in the 1913 directory was Edwin Rooke. that is on the east side no 43.
In the 1911 census no 43 is listed as The Vine, landlord Edwin Rooke with wife florence and 3 daughters and 3 sons and a niece. I reckon Edwin was the waistcoated bloke, and the young girl to his left his eldest daughter Florence junior.
mike
The caption states that the beerhouse was run by Ted Rooke. The unnamed beer retailer in the 1913 directory was Edwin Rooke. that is on the east side no 43.
In the 1911 census no 43 is listed as The Vine, landlord Edwin Rooke with wife florence and 3 daughters and 3 sons and a niece. I reckon Edwin was the waistcoated bloke, and the young girl to his left his eldest daughter Florence junior.
mike
Phil
Gone, but not forgotten.
Mike
What you say makes sense, the Vine would have stood more or less either next door to, or where they built the Ashted cinema. The attached photo of a shop would have been the shop on the Vine photo. I've looked and it matches.
This leaves the way clear for the shop being on the NW corner of Francis St before the baths were built. Now if we could only put a P.Roberts in the shop before then we would be done.
Phil
What you say makes sense, the Vine would have stood more or less either next door to, or where they built the Ashted cinema. The attached photo of a shop would have been the shop on the Vine photo. I've looked and it matches.
This leaves the way clear for the shop being on the NW corner of Francis St before the baths were built. Now if we could only put a P.Roberts in the shop before then we would be done.
Phil
Attachments
john knight
signman
Phil,
You've set a puzzle here alright, I have a couple of queries-in your last photo you can see St. Mathews church, this is on the east side of Willis Street if I'm
correct, 2nd the roof line is nothing like in the original photo.
Not being a builder I would not know the implications of any change being made, but to me it looks like the row of houses continued to the right of the photo, whereas the photo of Francis Street is a gable end.
This is doing my head in ha ha, but I love it.
And fair enough you can see the pub on the corner of Henage Street, but I'm still intrigued.
John
You've set a puzzle here alright, I have a couple of queries-in your last photo you can see St. Mathews church, this is on the east side of Willis Street if I'm
correct, 2nd the roof line is nothing like in the original photo.
Not being a builder I would not know the implications of any change being made, but to me it looks like the row of houses continued to the right of the photo, whereas the photo of Francis Street is a gable end.
This is doing my head in ha ha, but I love it.
And fair enough you can see the pub on the corner of Henage Street, but I'm still intrigued.
John
dek carr
gone but not forgotten
Phil .This is an interesting photo .Have you completely dismissed the junction with St James St. As a boy who lived no more than 50 yards from it you were right to say Willis St went up hill to Gt Brook St and slightly down hill to Ashted Row then it was almost flat to Gt lister St. What i could say for sure is that there was a lamp post on that corner we often used to Swing off it and Mr Rose out of the Outdoor on the other corner would tell us to clear off down your own end . Mind you every St in the area had these lamp post what do i know. dek
Roy Rocket
proper brummie kid
I've just read a lovely book by Dennis Harding "From the Shadows of Poverty". Referring 1900 to present day - schooldays to manhood situated around Nechells/Duddeston.
Phil
Gone, but not forgotten.
Dek
I haven't completely dismissed St James St, but the problem is I can't remember the types of housing that it contained. Willis St was just about 50 yards away from where I lived so my memory is a little better.
John
I'm sorry if I mislead you, I'm not saying the last photo I posted was the same shop as the first photo. Only that it is the same shop as in the photo as in the one of The Vine Public House. Thus putting the Vine on the East side of Willis St and not the west as I first thought.
Look at this map (one of Mike's I think) Indicated No 1 in red The site of the photo and shop. No 2 The site of the shop in the Vine Photo and No 3 The Vine public House. Those are my thoughts but we have no confirmation of No 1.
Phil
I haven't completely dismissed St James St, but the problem is I can't remember the types of housing that it contained. Willis St was just about 50 yards away from where I lived so my memory is a little better.
John
I'm sorry if I mislead you, I'm not saying the last photo I posted was the same shop as the first photo. Only that it is the same shop as in the photo as in the one of The Vine Public House. Thus putting the Vine on the East side of Willis St and not the west as I first thought.
Look at this map (one of Mike's I think) Indicated No 1 in red The site of the photo and shop. No 2 The site of the shop in the Vine Photo and No 3 The Vine public House. Those are my thoughts but we have no confirmation of No 1.
Phil
Attachments
Phil
Gone, but not forgotten.
Lyn
It was the first thing I though about, but the shop sign says Willis Grocers I suppose that could just be as suggested the name of the shop. As far as I know there was only one Willis St in Birmingham. I don't think it would be another town but as you say anything is possible with these old photos. I'm sure they just make their best guess half the time.
Phil
It was the first thing I though about, but the shop sign says Willis Grocers I suppose that could just be as suggested the name of the shop. As far as I know there was only one Willis St in Birmingham. I don't think it would be another town but as you say anything is possible with these old photos. I'm sure they just make their best guess half the time.
Phil
like i said phil its a good one is this....ive searched for pics of all the roads and streets off willis but none have come up that would be of any use..pity we cant see what the street sign says but i have sent the pic to someone who has just got some new fandangled piece of equipement that may give us a better look at it...its worth a go anyway...
lyn
lyn
john knight
signman
Phil,
No problems-this is great I love a mystery, especially where photos and maps are concerned I understand where you're going now with this one.
Perhaps if we do solve it you can come up with another one, or even if we don't.
It keeps the old brain box working.Regards John.
No problems-this is great I love a mystery, especially where photos and maps are concerned I understand where you're going now with this one.
Perhaps if we do solve it you can come up with another one, or even if we don't.
It keeps the old brain box working.Regards John.
dek carr
gone but not forgotten
Hi PHil.Ref the houses in the photo, They appear to be of a different style the last one is bigger and appears to be rendered and lime washed also the roof line is higher this is common practice when going uphill i had a mate who lived on the west side of the st just before gt Brook St the houses on the other side of the road were of a different style.Have you got a map showing the houses between St James St and Gt Brook St like the one you sent to John. Dek
Phil
Gone, but not forgotten.
Dek
If you cast your mind back you will remember just how varied the houses were in that area. Look at Ashted Row you could have a Georgian Mansion a few doors away from a humble back to back.
In fact one of the main reasons why I think its the corner of Francis St is that on the left of the photo just past the darker coloured houses there is a block that look like they have been rendered or pebble dashed. Just past the public baths the first block in Francis St was just the same.
I can't help you with a better map of St James's St, Mikejee is the man you need to talk to.
John
I have a few photographs that I still haven't identified if this sort of thing interests you then I will put them up. It wasn't that this one didn't have a title, it was just that I couldn't find a record of it.
Phil
If you cast your mind back you will remember just how varied the houses were in that area. Look at Ashted Row you could have a Georgian Mansion a few doors away from a humble back to back.
In fact one of the main reasons why I think its the corner of Francis St is that on the left of the photo just past the darker coloured houses there is a block that look like they have been rendered or pebble dashed. Just past the public baths the first block in Francis St was just the same.
I can't help you with a better map of St James's St, Mikejee is the man you need to talk to.
John
I have a few photographs that I still haven't identified if this sort of thing interests you then I will put them up. It wasn't that this one didn't have a title, it was just that I couldn't find a record of it.
Phil
john knight
signman
Dek,
Is this any good, cobbled together from 2 maps and taken with a camera hence not very good quality, Mike can probably come up with a better one from a scanner.
John.
Is this any good, cobbled together from 2 maps and taken with a camera hence not very good quality, Mike can probably come up with a better one from a scanner.
John.