downes Harry ...

[Astoness]

hi all....decided to pick up my family ancestry again and need some help please...could i have a look up please for my gt grandfather on dads side..

the death of a harry downes..birm..he would have died between 1908 and 1911 as my grandmother was orphaned at 3 years old or before and she was born in 1908 having lost both her parents at more or less the same time it seems....

also the marriage of harry downes birm...as i would like to find out who his wife was....

sorry i have not got much to go on at the moment...but any ref numbers would be useful..

thanks for any help given...

lyn

 

[Pomgolian]

Re: Harry downes...

[SIZE=+1]Hi Lynn looked from 1905 onwards and only came up with this one...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Marriages Sep 1908 [/SIZE]
DOWNES Harry Guise King's N. 6c739
JARVIS Rose Elizabeth King's N. 6c739

What were your Gran's names ? Because her birth cert' would give you their names and addresses...

 

[smtr]

Re: Harry downes...

Hi Lynn

There is a death for a Harry Downes 1911 in Kings Norton ref JFM 6c 245 aged 30.

Suzanne

 

[Alberta]

Re: Harry downes...

Lyn, was your grandmother Kathleen May,
There are Downes in Bromyard in 1911 ,have no credit left but there is
Harry Guise Downes b. 1883 Bromyard ,Rose Downes b. 1884 Handsworth and Kathleen May age 1
have found her birth in Aston Sept 1909.

 

[Alberta]

Re: Harry downes...

Harry Giuse Downes b 1883 Whitbourne ,Bromyard.
1891 The Firs,Whitbourne
Oswald V Downes age 48 b. Whitbourne Coachman Domestic Servant
Jane A age 46 b. Whittington Worcs. (Oswald V Downes /Jane A Guise m.March 1865 Worcester 6c 331)
Kate age 17
Oswald 10
Harry G 8
Vincent 6

cannot locate Harry in 1901

1901
109 Westfield road,Kings norton
Rose Jarvis age 17 born handsworth Chocolate packer boarding in the house of a widow Ellen Johnson.

 

[Astoness]

Re: Harry downes...

oh dear...i think i am causing another one of those difficult look ups again...all i have on paper is my grandmothers marriage cert dated 1928...kate alice downes...age 20 address 50 digbeth...fathers name harry downes...profession dealer....the marriage cert was witnessed by kates step father who adopted her certainly at the age of 3 or younger after both of her parents died.....i have kates birth cert ref so i think to find out who her mom was i will have to get a copy...

hi alberta strange you cant find harry in 1901 as he must have been around somewhere as kate was born in 1908...here we go again...suzzane thank you for your look up but i have a feeling that harry may have died before 1911 although i suppose it could have been at the end of 1910 and not reg till 1911....must do more digging i think...

lyn

 

[smtr]

Re: Harry downes...

Hi Lyn
Ponder this one, it could be a maybe!!
Marriage for Albert Henry Downes (Harry is short for Henry) to Kate Bradnock in 1900 Aston ref OND 6d 696
Death for Albert Henry Downes in Bham 1908 ref OND 6d 100 aged 34
Death for Kate Downes in Bham 1908 ref OND 6d 98 aged 24

1901 census
Henry Downes b1873 Bham (has dropped the Albert?)
Kate Downes b1881 Bham
They are living at 13 Clark Street, Ladywood but I cant read his occupation too clearly, something like Carter?
Years of birth tie up with ages at death and judging by the death references could have died within weeks/months of each other?

Obviously her birth certificate will provide the definitive answer, but just thought I'd mention it.

Suzanne

PS forgot to ask, what was her Step Father's name?

 

[smtr]

Re: Harry downes...

and in 1891 this Henry Downes looks to be a Hay and Staw dealer as is his father and just checked again the 1901 and says Carter, Hay and Straw.

Suzanne

 

[smtr]

Re: Harry downes...

In 1911 a Jane Bradnock, Kate Bradnock's mother, has a granddaughter living with her, a Rose Downs b1902 Bham. Do you know if your Grandmother had siblings?
This Jane Bradnock is a Fried Fish Shopkeeper living at 198 Wellington Street, Bham.

Suzanne

 

[Astoness]

Re: Harry downes...

hi suzanne..i think you have found them...you have this albert henry downes down as a straw dealer and kate has her father down as a dealer on her marriage cert...also he married a kate bracknock....so they named their daughter after the mother...the deaths are so close its has to be them i would think...would imagine they both died of something like TB...and yes again to you question did kate have siblings....i am sure dad has told me that his mom kate had one or two and luckily i can corfirm this with him when i go to see him on friday.....gosh this is exciting now and i must get both death certs as i must find out what happened to my gt grandparents...kates stepfather and mother were george henry doyle and his wife....i know all there is to know about them...they looked after kate very well....george ran a couple of pubs and my dad was born in the globe inn hosptal st...shortly after that george doyle set kate and her hubby up with a little shop in well st...so it is of comfort to know that at least my grandmother was loved and looked after by the doyles....

thanks ever so much...all i need to do now is to confirm this and then hopefully follow up on rose downes...i will let you know what our dad remembers on friday...

lyn

 

[smtr]

Re: Harry downes...

Hi Lyn

So glad this is the Harry you were after. I couldn't let this one rest!!! Only thing I couldn't find was Kate Alice on the 1911. Never mind I bet she will show up soon.
Take care

Suzanne

 

[smtr]

Re: Harry downes...

Ahh! found her now! Kate Alice Doyle with George Henry and Maud Hannah Doyle 87 Cardigan Street Birmingham. He is as you said a licensed victualler.

Suzanne

 

[Astoness]

Re: Harry downes...

suzanne going back to your post 7...does it say what quarter kate downes died...as i have only just realised that her daughter kate alice was born in 1908...i am just going to check the month that kate alice was born...

many thanks..

lyn

 

[Astoness]

Re: Harry downes...

just checked the date... kate alice was born 2nd quarter 1908...so assuming we have got it right the poor child never really knew her mom or dad...if kate downes died before the 3rd quarter it would be to much of a coinsidence not to have it right but i still want to get copies of birth and death certs...

lyn

 

[ladylinda]

Re: Harry downes...

Hi Lyn, Kate Alice was born 1908 2nd Quarter (vol 6d page 103) and Kate died 1908 4th Quarter (vol 6d,page 98)

 

[smtr]

Re: Harry downes...

Hi Lyn

Yes I checked Kate Alice's birth quarter first before deciding if these could have been her parents. Let us know if you get their death certificates, would be very interesting. Wonder if there were more siblings? Quite likely if they married in 1900, Rose born 1902 and Kate 1908, might be at least 1 in between.

Suzanne

 

[Astoness]

Re: Harry downes...

thank you suzanne... so this is more confirmation and looking at the ref numbers albert died soon after his wife....this is turning out to be such a sad story and i know there were many around that time...they were both so young....must get to the bottom of it now ive started...as i said i am sure dad said that his mom had at least one or two bros or sisters and hopefully when i see him on friday he will still remember things...

thank you again for taking the time to help me...

will get back soon...

lyn

 

[mikejee]

Re: Harry downes...

Lyn
Just a suggestion, but in 1899 and 1900 there was an Albert Henry Downes listed in kellys, landlord of the Clement’s Vaults, 102 Digbeth. He had gone by 1904. The pub was demolished to make way for digbeth police station in 1907. Do you think that he tried the licenced trade for a while ? I was going to suggest that that was how he got to know the Doyles, but they don’t seem to join the trade till sometime between 1908 and 1911, so not so likely
mike

 

[Astoness]

Re: Harry downes...

hi mike...well i have always wondered what the connection was between the doyles and the downes family and your theory is always possible.... it may have been that george doyle worked for albert downes this is if the albert downes of the the clements vaults is my albert downes.....there is one coinsidence though...although some 20 years after albert downes death in 1928 his daughter kate alice on her marriage cert puts her address down as 50 digbeth....just one thing mike..does kellys say that albert downes was at the clements from 1900 to 1903 as the 1901 census puts him and kate at at clark st ladywood....

lyn

 

[Astoness]

Re: Harry downes...

hi all.....i would like to know the address and who else was living there and where born please if possible on the 1891 census for a henry downes b birm 1874..occ straw maker...

many thanks for the help

lyn

 

[mikejee]

Re: Harry downes...

Lyn
I'm afraid i don't have the 1901 or 1902 Kellys. Regretably they have never been issued on DVD.however in 1901 the licensee at 102 Digbeth was Samuel Milnes, so presumably Harry had left by then. Incidently No 50 digbeth is marked in blue on the map below. As can be seen it is almost opposite the Police station, where Clements Vaults were . A long time before I agree
mike

 

[Astoness]

Re: Harry downes...

morning mike...yes i agree i do have a bit to go yet but how strange that kate downes lived opposite the the pub that a albert downes ran albeit 20 years apart...i just have this gut feeling that it was kates dad....just one last thing...can you tell me how far the pub was from the address grange road deritend...aston as that is where george doyle was in 1901...i didnt think that deritend came under aston...

lyn..

 

[mikejee]

Re: Harry downes...

Yes, as far as the census is concrered, deritend is aston
mike

 

[mikejee]

Re: Harry downes...

Just one other thing Lyn.
In the 1897, 1896 and 1895 directories (just before Albert Henry took over the clements vaults), there are two Downes listed in Kellys, James , beer retailer at 22 Howard St and John Senior at the Rising Sun 103 coleshill St/1 old cross St . John senior is presumably the same John as at the Crown and anchor at 44 Gem St in 1890 and 1892 and probab ly the same as the john downes at the Kings Arms, 14 suffolk St in 1890. in the 1891 census john , although at the rising sun, is listed as an Iron merchant, so presumably had two strings to his bow. He also had a son, John R who is a licensed victuallers traveller and is probably the john below.
There is a william Henry downes, beer retailer at 38 musgrave road, lodge road in 1890, 1892, 1895
There is an edward downs , beer retailer at 4 Prospect row in 1895 and 1896
Edward downes, Nags Head high st deritend 1890
John downes beer retailer 132 Irving St in 1892
Benjamin downes beer retailer at 17 Spring hill in 1890
Thomas Downes beer retailer 8 Aston Rd 1890
Haven't gone back before 1890 but will if you think it might be useful
Looks like there was a Downes licensing dynasty !! I think it is reasonable to think that these are probably related in some way
Mike

 

[Astoness]

Re: Harry downes...

omg mike...if i find out these downes are related to me no wonder i have such an interest in pubs strange really cos i dont drink much meself...ok then i will now write down all the info you and others have kindly posted and try and digest all this info...this may take some time to unravel..i would dearly love to find the conection between the downes family and the doyles...next week i am off to get copies of certs i need...oh i dont wish to confuse but my middle name is kate...after me gran and gt gran before me..

lyn