Lady Penelope
master brummie
I don't wonder that you're chuffed, it's a wonderful feeling when you do that. Thanks so much! I'll definitely look at that website you mention.
-
Welcome to this forum . We are a worldwide group with a common interest in Birmingham and its history. While here, please follow a few simple rules. We ask that you respect other members, thank those who have helped you and please keep your contributions on-topic with the thread.
We do hope you enjoy your visit. BHF Admin Team
Birmingham Photos - Help & Expertise Needed Please.
- Thread starter Lady Penelope
- Start date
Childers
proper brummie kid
Here is an example of the possibility of enhancing these old photos with Adobe Photoshop or other good image editing programs. The detail is from No. 6 - Corporation Street.
In spite of the improvement, unfortunately there is not enough detail in the original for me to make out the date on the banner.
RobT
Acemeccanoman
Date now reads 10th - 15th MAY (edited)
MIDLAND MUSICAL COMPETITION FESTIVAL - ProQuest
Explore millions of resources from scholarly journals, books, newspapers, videos and more, on the ProQuest Platform.
www.proquest.com
Last edited:
RobT
Acemeccanoman
I have found out that the competition dates for 1927 were May 9th - May 13th,
this info was found in 'The British Musician'
The 'Musical Herald London' says that the competition was around in 1912,
can anyone find out another year which matches the competition being held
between May 10th - May 15th and probably after 1923?
Eric Gibson
master brummie
There's a sign saying Derby results, the Derby is usually run last week in May first week in June is that any help?
Childers
proper brummie kid
There is an internet app for converting Dates to Days of the Week. Result: May 9-13 1927 is Monday to Friday.
As with the Derby, we might assume the annual competition was run on the same week in May each year.
May 10-15 is a day longer. Assuming that the Lord's Day would not have been included in a six day festival, this gives us a festival lasting from Monday to Saturday.
Using the same app, we find that Monday to Saturday, May 10-15 occurs in the year 1926. The same does not occur again until 1937, which is much too late for the picture.
Since the auto registration dates 1923 or later, we have the date for the photo: 1926
P.S. This is another great example of the power of crowd sourcing. Kudos to the BHF community.
Last edited:
Eric Gibson
master brummie
I had a quick look at the dates the Derby was run in the years between 1912 to 1926, none were run that early in May.
Copied this from Wiki:
Initially, the Derby was run on a Thursday in late May or early June, depending on when Easter occurred. In 1838 the race was moved to a Wednesday to fit in with the railways' timetables, but still followed the moveable feast of Easter. In the 20th century, the race was run on the first Wednesday in June from 1900 until 1995, not including 1915 to 1918 (during the First World War), when it was on a Tuesday. During the Second World War, from 1942 until 1945 the race was run on a Saturday, as it was in the post-war years of 1947 to 1950 and again in 1953.[1] In 1995 the day was changed from the first Wednesday in June to the first Saturday,[7] and since then all the races have taken place on that day.
The Derby has been run at Epsom in all years except during the world wars. From 1915 to 1918 and fr
Copied this from Wiki:
Initially, the Derby was run on a Thursday in late May or early June, depending on when Easter occurred. In 1838 the race was moved to a Wednesday to fit in with the railways' timetables, but still followed the moveable feast of Easter. In the 20th century, the race was run on the first Wednesday in June from 1900 until 1995, not including 1915 to 1918 (during the First World War), when it was on a Tuesday. During the Second World War, from 1942 until 1945 the race was run on a Saturday, as it was in the post-war years of 1947 to 1950 and again in 1953.[1] In 1995 the day was changed from the first Wednesday in June to the first Saturday,[7] and since then all the races have taken place on that day.
The Derby has been run at Epsom in all years except during the world wars. From 1915 to 1918 and fr
Last edited:
Eric Gibson
master brummie
I suppose it's possible that the banner was out of date and they just hadn't got around to taking it down.
Childers
proper brummie kid
If you look at what is at the top of the Derby poster, it is offering "1000 pounds for the DERBY RESULT."
It is quite apparent that the Derby had not yet been run or the result would already have been known.
The poster on the cab is advertising the upcoming Derby itself or some betting scheme related to the Derby. After the results were out, the cabbie would have taken down the poster. There is no evidence on the poster as to the year that Derby was run, so no help in dating the photo.
It seems very unlikely that the music banner would have been left up until two or three weeks after it was over, but it doesn't matter two hoots.
The dates on the banner could only have occurred in 1926, whether the photograph was taken in late April or late May. So that's the year it was taken.
Childers
proper brummie kid
Great Hunting: this supports the theory that it was held the same week each year.
Correction: See below, post #48, #49 & #50. A great theory destroyed by an even greater fact.
Last edited:
Childers
proper brummie kid
We had a dilemma. We had an early date limit of 1923 for the plate registration, and no later year until 1926 where the competition dates began on a Monday. And then the actual dates for the 1926 event did not match. The next year for Monday the 10th is definitely too late for the photo.
I believe Pedrocut has cut through the gordian knot. If the competition began on Saturday the 10th, 1924, and Sunday was a day of rest, the competition would have occurred on five days, as in other years. Perhaps there is newspaper evidence to confirm or deny this, but an extra day would be no problem.
However, the importance of Pedrocut's discovery is that the date of 1924 works with the 1923 registration limit.
The next earlier years for Monday the 10th are 1915 and 1909. I don't think the clothing fits, but I'm no expert.
I for one could agree with 1924 as the date of the photo. Interestingly, it fits the caption attribution of ca. 1923. You can't get much more circa without being in the year itself.
Regards all . . .
Last edited:
Childers
proper brummie kid
Have a look at post #52 for the latest update.
Now it looks very like 1924, thanks to Pedrocut.
Amazing how this thread was dormant for just over a year, and then, BANG! Crowdsourcing in action.
Childers
proper brummie kid
Based on the advert. in post #45, could it have been divided into an adult festival and a children's festival, each lasting about a week? Otherwise, we may again have a dilemma.
Childers
proper brummie kid
1920 also starts on a Monday. However we are left with the open registration question. Anyone know how to research that?
RobT's news clipping states that the 1920 competition was the fourth. An earlier post in this thread says the competition was held in 1912. So 1912&13; 1919&20, leaving out the war years. The earlier Monday the 10th possibilities are 1909 and 1915, which probably had no competition. Also only one horse visible, pulling the "Derby Results" cab, and the dominance of motor vehicles, pointing to the 1920's. There was a huge loss of horses during the Great War, and then the motor age.
An automobile buff might be able to date some of the vehicles in the photo. Are any of the models later than 1920?
If it can't be narrowed further, we might be left with ca. 1922 or 1923. But at least there is now good evidence for that.
Last edited:
Two
master brummie
OOPs- Just found the previous Article on the BH Forum about Reg Numbers.
OE was introduced from 1919!!!
Part of the article below.
From 1896 all mechanically propelled vehicles weighing over 14 tons had to be registered. After the turn of the century, the development of the petrol engine brought over 5000 vehicles on the road, and a licensing acr was introduced in 1903 for all motor vehicles, the licences being issued locally. The first number A 1 was issued by the London County Council in 1903. The letter B was used for Lancashire registrations, C for Yorkshire west Riding and so on to E (Staffordshire), and O Birmingham.
The Birmingham Motor Express Company introduced six Milnes-Daimler buses in 1904, which were numbered O 264 - 269. By 1907 the succeeding company (Midland Red) had introduced another 20 numbered O 1270 - 1291 (not O 1279, 1282, for some reason), before it decided to give up petrol buses and use horses again. It took until 1912 to try petrol buses again when 13 buses were registered O 8200 - 8212, followed by O 9913 - 9942.
In that year, rather than add another digit to the number, the authorities decided to add a second letter to new registrations, followed by up to four numbers. In Brum OA started in 1913, reaching OA 2549 by the end of year, OA 4600 by the next. Despite World War 1, the numbers grew to OA 7103 by 1916, when OB followed. Then next allocated letters were OE in 1919 and OH in 1920, then OK in 1922. OL in 1923, OM in 1924, ON and OP in 1926, OX in 1927. Then in 1928 came a foreigner, VP, which lasted for a while, after which some of the missing O-series were filled in, OF and OG in 1930, OV in 1931, OJ in 1933 and OC in 1934. Meanwhile OD had gone to Devon, OI to Belfast. OR, OT, OW to Southampton, OS to Wigtown and OY to Croydon.
OE was introduced from 1919!!!
Part of the article below.
From 1896 all mechanically propelled vehicles weighing over 14 tons had to be registered. After the turn of the century, the development of the petrol engine brought over 5000 vehicles on the road, and a licensing acr was introduced in 1903 for all motor vehicles, the licences being issued locally. The first number A 1 was issued by the London County Council in 1903. The letter B was used for Lancashire registrations, C for Yorkshire west Riding and so on to E (Staffordshire), and O Birmingham.
The Birmingham Motor Express Company introduced six Milnes-Daimler buses in 1904, which were numbered O 264 - 269. By 1907 the succeeding company (Midland Red) had introduced another 20 numbered O 1270 - 1291 (not O 1279, 1282, for some reason), before it decided to give up petrol buses and use horses again. It took until 1912 to try petrol buses again when 13 buses were registered O 8200 - 8212, followed by O 9913 - 9942.
In that year, rather than add another digit to the number, the authorities decided to add a second letter to new registrations, followed by up to four numbers. In Brum OA started in 1913, reaching OA 2549 by the end of year, OA 4600 by the next. Despite World War 1, the numbers grew to OA 7103 by 1916, when OB followed. Then next allocated letters were OE in 1919 and OH in 1920, then OK in 1922. OL in 1923, OM in 1924, ON and OP in 1926, OX in 1927. Then in 1928 came a foreigner, VP, which lasted for a while, after which some of the missing O-series were filled in, OF and OG in 1930, OV in 1931, OJ in 1933 and OC in 1934. Meanwhile OD had gone to Devon, OI to Belfast. OR, OT, OW to Southampton, OS to Wigtown and OY to Croydon.
Childers
proper brummie kid
With Two's excellent detailed post on the Registration numbers, 1920 is a very strong candidate for the year of the Photo.
1919 becomes the early limit. Are there any vehicles on view later than 1920? Are the fashions 1920 or 1924 (four years often makes a difference). I lean to the earlier date, but someone with fashion knowledge could contribute here.