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Bayley Charles William

Right here goes - this is pure conjecture but seems to fit the facts:
Keith you said Charles seemed to puit different names for his Father - was one of them Henry or Harry? If so then it adds to the evidence.

Time line as I see it

1892 Henry Dunhill marries Gertrude Baldwin reg West Bromwich (which at the time includes Handsworth and Perry Barr)

1893 son Edgar born* mmn Baldwin

1896 son Robert born* mmn Baldwin

1898 daughter Gertrude born* mmn Baldwin

All above reg in west Bromwich

1900 Harry and Gertrude in court on child neglect. Notice the address is Perry Barr. Dated February 1900
Feb 1900.jpg
(I am not sure where Edgar was at this stage)

1900 son of Gertrude Charles William born birth reg as Bayley - reg with mmn Baldwin

1906 daughter Emily born* mmn Baldwin

1909 daughter Bertha born* and dies mmn Baldwin

1911 son Harry born
1913 son Harry dies

All these reg in Birmingham

On Charles army form he gives address as court 25, house 8 Cheapside

On 1920 eroll Henry and Gertrude are listed at that address Still there on 1921 census with daughter Emily

Erolls show them at that address until at least 1935

1911 census Herny and Gertrude with children Gertrude, William, John (no idea who he is at the moment) and Emily are at 67 Meridan Street

William is down as born 1900 – so I suspect this is actually Charles William but listed here as Dunhill.

1921 census Henry and Gertrude with Emily are at Cheapside.

That is as far as I have got. I can't find them on 1901 census. Need to find where Edgar was and who John was.
Suspect the move from Perry Barr to Birmingham coincided with the appearance in court. Think they concealed Charles birth by using a false name to prevent him being taken into care.
I have baptism and birth reg for all the children marked with *

Too much of a coincidence that Charles gives that address, Gertrude is named as his mother and Gertrude lives at that address.

What do you think? Have I loost the plot or is there an element of truth in my thinking
 
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crikey miss marple i think you could well be right..i also cant find them on the 1901 but suspect that they avoided it due to the recent court case...however i will keep searching...

lyn
 
keith did you read jans post 31 where she gives here ideas on what has happened

lyn
 
Astoness said:
keith did you read jans post 31 where she gives here ideas on what has happened

lyn
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Sorry no I hadn't caught up with #31.....only just got some WiFi ...in M and S cafe lol.........
OMG Janice you are a star....how the hell do you find all these things.
This ALL looks plausible and answers a lot of things.
I have been clicking on some of them not realising what I was looking at.
Will have to wait until I get a pen and pad to work out who is who and where they fit in.
From his Army records we know he wasn't the brightest penny and I think his 2 spells....hopefully only2....in jail were down to this as well. The paper record when he was 68 would be said to be dementia I think.....
My reasons for the extensive searches with him were as I have said on here a few times was my Wife's Mom never really knew who she was...found Charlie was her Dad and May Butcher the Mom......snippets from my M in laws memory said she thought she was with Charlie for a few years as May left....but they were together around 1924 as their last child was born and died in 27 when living at his Mom's.
I have located May in Newcastle Under Lyme in 1928/30 where she had loads more children.We met one the other week and she said May always said Charlie was abusive.
Apparently M in Law. met some of her step family BUT we think no one ever told her she was a sister. This was both sides of family in on it as my wife used to play with her cousin who it turns out is her 2nd cousin......
All this and finding Charlie's picture has made it a mega week..just ned the N under L family to find us a picture of May..thanks again.
 
Glad to help. It was like a cross between a jigsaw puzzle and being a detective.
When you have digested the info let us know if you want further help.
 
all I can find for 1901 is Harry,Edgar and Robert at Speedwell Rd Yardley...no idea about Gertrude (Mom) ,Gertrude (Child) or Charles William.
 

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I can't find Gertrude or the two youngest either but I can add some info about Edgar and Robert. Using phone so can't post the full info but Edgar and Robert ended up in the Middlemore Homes and were sent to Canada in 1903.
The info there says "mother deserted".
We don't know if she and Harry split and perhaps she had Charles and John then got back with Harry. Wonder who it says is the Father of John.

I used here to search for Edgar and Robert
www.homechildrencanada.com

Home Children Canada - The leader in continuing the mission to bring the true stories of the British Home Children to light, maintain their memory, and to reunite the families separated by the child migrant schemes.

British Home Children Registry
www.homechildrencanada.com www.homechildrencanada.com
 
pjmburns said:
I can't find Gertrude or the two youngest either but I can add some info about Edgar and Robert. Using phone so can't post the full info but Edgar and Robert ended up in the Middlemore Homes and were sent to Canada in 1903.
The info there says "mother deserted".
We don't know if she and Harry split and perhaps she had Charles and John then got back with Harry. Wonder who it says is the Father of John.

I used here to search for Edgar and Robert
www.homechildrencanada.com

Home Children Canada - The leader in continuing the mission to bring the true stories of the British Home Children to light, maintain their memory, and to reunite the families separated by the child migrant schemes.

British Home Children Registry
www.homechildrencanada.com www.homechildrencanada.com
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Thanks again......I was looking this afternoon and it seemed boys were with Dad and Girls with Mom but your find is another revelation (many times over).
I was changing the name to Harry Dunhill on My tree for the Dad of Charles and opened the cert for 2nd marriage for Charles and Alice as still not 100% sure if Charles Dunhill is his Dad and guess who pops up as one witness.......John Dunhill...its about the only truth on the form......LOL.
So now convinced Harry WAS the DAD.
 

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Just read the reports on Edgar and Robert.....heartbreaking that they split them up.
It says at the end "Photos in "Story of Middlemore 1872-1972"." ...I wonder if it means we could see them ?
 
Keith R said:
Just read the reports on Edgar and Robert.....heartbreaking that they split them up.
It says at the end "Photos in "Story of Middlemore 1872-1972"." ...I wonder if it means we could see them ?
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hi keith....ive been reading roberts canadian service records on ancestry which also makes interesting reading..seems he died in 1990 so hopefully he had a good life in the end...occ was farmer next of kin down as mrs harry dunhill...he was adopted by the ray family

lyn
 
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Robert taken in by family with surname "Ray" - later records show him calling himself "Robert Ray Dunhill" - he became a farmer, as did many children sent to rural areas of Canada.
Out first thing but will post later.
 
Keith R said:
Just read the reports on Edgar and Robert.....heartbreaking that they split them up.
It says at the end "Photos in "Story of Middlemore 1872-1972"." ...I wonder if it means we could see them ?
Click to expand...
I have just checked and it seems that book is in referecne sections only. Copy at Birmingham Archives apparently.

I can tell you that both boys stayed in Canada and both married. More if you want to know but you might prefer to search for yourself.
 
pjmburns said:
I have just checked and it seems that book is in referecne sections only. Copy at Birmingham Archives apparently.

I can tell you that both boys stayed in Canada and both married. More if you want to know but you might prefer to search for yourself.
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this is certainly one of most complex researches i have helped with jan but it all seems to be coming together now...

lyn
 
Found in Ottawa Free Press cuttings across 4th June/10th June 1915....Edgar Dunhill sometimes private/sergeant and missing/wounded and in P.O.W. camp @ Bishofswerke Germany......tried but cant find a way to copy or clip them.
 
Think I can find it so will look.
Are you on Ancestry? At the moment his army record (50+pages) is available. The record refers to him being missing.
As is Robert's (only about 10+ as he was younger)
 
Yes those are the ones......will have to be quick and look on Ancestry....
Still trying to 100% confirm Charles and John.......which was the other one along with Charles that you didnt know Henry/Harry was the Dad - registered as Bayley ?
 
Keith R said:
Yes those are the ones......will have to be quick and look on Ancestry....
Still trying to 100% confirm Charles and John.......which was the other one along with Charles that you didnt know Henry/Harry was the Dad - registered as Bayley ?
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That was John
1903 John.jpg

If you don't get the army files I have downloaded them. Some pages are interesting
 
jUST GOT HIS CERT...............Dad is listed same as Charlies Cert....interesting jobs for Dad...
 

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Astoness said:
this is certainly one of most complex researches i have helped with jan but it all seems to be coming together now...

lyn
Click to expand...
I have been trying to work it all out for 2 1/2 years.......wouldnt have got anywhere on Wifes Maternal side if our Daughter hadnt done a DNA test which turned up a match in Newcastle Under Lyme. It turned out to be Mother in laws 1/2 sibling.......and all along side this was Mr Bayley...had the Army records ages ago but just couldnt find any of his family.
My wife wont except that Chalie is a Dunhill and not a Bayley.....strange how Charlie kept Bayley but John went with Dunhill ....even though some records show Charlie as William Dunhill.
My wife says she would hate all her families stuff to be on Who do you think you Are...I said it would be a complete series.....lol
 
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