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BANNISTER, Mary and Martha
- Thread starter ChrisM
- Start date
Richard Dye
master brummie
Went to the address and listing by various brokerage firms who are required to post the “built date”.
I have friend whose business is in same town who also confirmed.
Thank you for the further invaluable contributions, MWS, Janice and other members who are kind enough to be interested. I now know so much more about Mary's life in the USA, and that of several of those close to her. Her two husbands, both of whom predeceased her, were also immigrants, it seems: Walter Wilson who accompanied her on her voyage to New York and, like her, had been born in Old Hill; and Pete Semon who originally came from Germany (although the 1940 Census now seems to contradict that). Her stepchildren, Vernis and Arthur Semon, left behind them just one child, Nancy, Vernis's daughter. Whether those who have been interested enough to comment on these people on appropriate genealogy sites are descendants of her, or other relatives of Walter or Pete, I don't know.
In due course I'll make suitable amendments to the opening statement about Mary, to include all this new information, and then leave it there as a lasting memory of just one "honorary Brummie" who arrived there from the Black Country, spent time in the city and then the rest of her life in Cleveland, Ohio. Perhaps those researchers in the USA who have an interest in Mary might find it, one day.
I am wondering if it is possible to find out a bit more of her life, and that of her sister Martha, from earlier years and much closer to home in Birmingham. The key to it, I think, is Martha, my grandmother (1874-1918). She and Mary were the second and fourth daughters out of five, the children of Joseph Bannister (1851-1925) and his wife Mary (née Parkes, 1853-1929) who after marriage lived in various addresses in Old Hill including Wright's Lane (1871, 1874 and possibly 1881), Garrett's Lane (1876-1883) and Cherry Orchard (1888 -1916 and possibly beyond). It has been mentioned that Martha came to Birmingham possibly at the age of 16, thus in 1889/1890, and that she was recorded as a servant. When Mary, nine years her junior, followed her is unknown; but it seems that Mary was living with Martha and her husband, Charles Myers (married 1897), before her departure to the USA in 1904.
It seems as though Martha appears in the 1881 Census, aged six, but does not seem to appear in the 1891. Presumably Mary does. What is unknown is where Martha lived for the next six years and how she met my grandfather who is recorded at the time of his 1897 marriage as living at 83 Stirling Road, Edgbaston. Martha's address at that time is listed as 10, Highbury Road, Kings Heath. The couple first lived at 10, Highbury Road where their first child, a daughter, was born. Was this the same house as "The Cedars", Highbury Road, where Charles is stated as living in the 1899 Kelly's "Court pages"?
The daughter's birth certificate describes Charles as a "dealer in antiquities". By 1899, when their second child, my father, was born they had moved to less salubrious accommodation at 38 Summer Lane where, in an apparent struggle to survive, they sold antiques from a shop which they set up in their home. In due course they moved to better premises at 44 Snow Hill, some time before 1907. I wonder if the latter had been the business/home address of my great-grandfather, Henry Myers (1832-1906), who had also set up an antiques business in that area following his adventures in Gold Rush California. The 1901 Census, unavailable to my brother when he did his researches in the 1990s, might clarify this.
At what stage Mary enters this Birmingham story, to live for some years with Charles and Martha before setting off for America in 1904, is unknown, but in old age my father recorded the fact that it did indeed happen. Would now accessible records give us any better clue about all this?
I myself am too old to learn the skills needed to cope with all the intricacies of family history research! But I'm fascinated by my grandparents' marriage and not just for the obvious reasons. Beyond the latter lies a very significant break with tradition. Grandfather Charles's elder sister, Eliza Rachel Myers (1862-1939), was the first member of that family line to break with the tradition of centuries and marry outside the Jewish faith, to a Charles Hinton. That was in 1895. Two years later, she was followed by Charles (1866-1940) when he married Martha Bannister in 1897. Whether the marriage of Charles and Martha crossed another barrier - that of class, significant in those days - is another area of interest. I've no way of telling for certain, but I suspect that Charles's father, Gold-Rush Henry, was by the 1870s fairly "middle-class" - he had a, presumably successful, antiques business in Snow Hill and sent his two sons to King Edward's. Martha was from a family of Black Country coal miners; I have no idea of her education but she seems to have started life as a domestic servant and would have been deemed "working class" in society. It is possible that none of the parents were present at the wedding - if so, was that significant or irrelevant? Could Martha even have served in whatever household Charles was living in at the time?)
Thank you again for all your interest and efforts.
Chris
The picture below is, 95% certainly, of Mary (Parkes) Bannister, the mother of Martha and Mary (1853-1929). Apparently taken by my father, Charles and Martha's only son - hence the annotation - and probably 1919 or 1920, Old Hill. Still quite a handsome woman at about 67.
In due course I'll make suitable amendments to the opening statement about Mary, to include all this new information, and then leave it there as a lasting memory of just one "honorary Brummie" who arrived there from the Black Country, spent time in the city and then the rest of her life in Cleveland, Ohio. Perhaps those researchers in the USA who have an interest in Mary might find it, one day.
I am wondering if it is possible to find out a bit more of her life, and that of her sister Martha, from earlier years and much closer to home in Birmingham. The key to it, I think, is Martha, my grandmother (1874-1918). She and Mary were the second and fourth daughters out of five, the children of Joseph Bannister (1851-1925) and his wife Mary (née Parkes, 1853-1929) who after marriage lived in various addresses in Old Hill including Wright's Lane (1871, 1874 and possibly 1881), Garrett's Lane (1876-1883) and Cherry Orchard (1888 -1916 and possibly beyond). It has been mentioned that Martha came to Birmingham possibly at the age of 16, thus in 1889/1890, and that she was recorded as a servant. When Mary, nine years her junior, followed her is unknown; but it seems that Mary was living with Martha and her husband, Charles Myers (married 1897), before her departure to the USA in 1904.
It seems as though Martha appears in the 1881 Census, aged six, but does not seem to appear in the 1891. Presumably Mary does. What is unknown is where Martha lived for the next six years and how she met my grandfather who is recorded at the time of his 1897 marriage as living at 83 Stirling Road, Edgbaston. Martha's address at that time is listed as 10, Highbury Road, Kings Heath. The couple first lived at 10, Highbury Road where their first child, a daughter, was born. Was this the same house as "The Cedars", Highbury Road, where Charles is stated as living in the 1899 Kelly's "Court pages"?
The daughter's birth certificate describes Charles as a "dealer in antiquities". By 1899, when their second child, my father, was born they had moved to less salubrious accommodation at 38 Summer Lane where, in an apparent struggle to survive, they sold antiques from a shop which they set up in their home. In due course they moved to better premises at 44 Snow Hill, some time before 1907. I wonder if the latter had been the business/home address of my great-grandfather, Henry Myers (1832-1906), who had also set up an antiques business in that area following his adventures in Gold Rush California. The 1901 Census, unavailable to my brother when he did his researches in the 1990s, might clarify this.
At what stage Mary enters this Birmingham story, to live for some years with Charles and Martha before setting off for America in 1904, is unknown, but in old age my father recorded the fact that it did indeed happen. Would now accessible records give us any better clue about all this?
I myself am too old to learn the skills needed to cope with all the intricacies of family history research! But I'm fascinated by my grandparents' marriage and not just for the obvious reasons. Beyond the latter lies a very significant break with tradition. Grandfather Charles's elder sister, Eliza Rachel Myers (1862-1939), was the first member of that family line to break with the tradition of centuries and marry outside the Jewish faith, to a Charles Hinton. That was in 1895. Two years later, she was followed by Charles (1866-1940) when he married Martha Bannister in 1897. Whether the marriage of Charles and Martha crossed another barrier - that of class, significant in those days - is another area of interest. I've no way of telling for certain, but I suspect that Charles's father, Gold-Rush Henry, was by the 1870s fairly "middle-class" - he had a, presumably successful, antiques business in Snow Hill and sent his two sons to King Edward's. Martha was from a family of Black Country coal miners; I have no idea of her education but she seems to have started life as a domestic servant and would have been deemed "working class" in society. It is possible that none of the parents were present at the wedding - if so, was that significant or irrelevant? Could Martha even have served in whatever household Charles was living in at the time?)
Thank you again for all your interest and efforts.
Chris
The picture below is, 95% certainly, of Mary (Parkes) Bannister, the mother of Martha and Mary (1853-1929). Apparently taken by my father, Charles and Martha's only son - hence the annotation - and probably 1919 or 1920, Old Hill. Still quite a handsome woman at about 67.
MWS
from Bham
Martha does appear on the 1891 census as a servant of a Thomas Priest, a chain manufacturer, in Rowley Regis.
There is a danger in reading too much into marriage certificates, and other records, sometimes and think there must be reason for the omission of a family member as a witness. It can be very helpful when this is the case but these things are just a snap shot and I suspect it doesn't usually mean anything when it isn't.
There is a danger in reading too much into marriage certificates, and other records, sometimes and think there must be reason for the omission of a family member as a witness. It can be very helpful when this is the case but these things are just a snap shot and I suspect it doesn't usually mean anything when it isn't.
MWS
from Bham
Another servant of Thomas Priest at the same time as Martha was an Amy Sidaway. The Sidaway name rang a bell, not sure where from but anyway and had a quick look and it appears that Martha's uncle, Matthew, married a Rosannah Sidaway. Not sure if they were related or if it's just a coincidence.
MWS
from Bham
Unfortunately, there just aren't that many records around that time to know.
Even the censuses, which are great, can be misleading. Yes, Mary was listed with Martha but that only means that she was there on the day of the census.
It may be that she was staying with them helping to look after her niece and nephew. It may be that she was staying there because she was working near by. Or it may be that she was just visiting and she just happened to be there that month, that week or even just that single day after she returned home to Old Hill.
Thanks, MWS, points noted. All I have to go on, concerning Mary's stay in Birmingham, is my father's 1974 note which states: "Mary/May lived with Mother for several years before emigrating.....". That memory was 70 years old when he wrote it but he was four-an-a-half by the time she left and so must have had some glimmer of memory of her presence in 1903 or 1904. I suspect therefore that she was a fairly permanent presence in his early childhood.
On a slightly different issue, the 1974 notes suggest that Charles and Martha's business efforts in poor surroundings bore fruit. Again to quote my father's words:
"....they started their business in rented premises in a poor part of Birmingham in antiques, stocking their shop with the contents of their home. Both worked very hard and built a viable and expanding business, moving to bigger premises at 44 Snow Hill (1904), 20 Snow Hill (1911), Navigation Street (1914) and Broad Street, Prince of Wales Galleries (1917) ...."
The family certainly lived in Snow Hill for a while but in 1913, they moved their home to Chessetts Wood because Martha's health demanded better air. She died there in January 1918 of pulmonary t.b. at the age of 44, leaving behind Charles and their three children, the youngest aged 13. This was clearly a dreadful loss to the family and had repercussions.
Chris
On a slightly different issue, the 1974 notes suggest that Charles and Martha's business efforts in poor surroundings bore fruit. Again to quote my father's words:
"....they started their business in rented premises in a poor part of Birmingham in antiques, stocking their shop with the contents of their home. Both worked very hard and built a viable and expanding business, moving to bigger premises at 44 Snow Hill (1904), 20 Snow Hill (1911), Navigation Street (1914) and Broad Street, Prince of Wales Galleries (1917) ...."
The family certainly lived in Snow Hill for a while but in 1913, they moved their home to Chessetts Wood because Martha's health demanded better air. She died there in January 1918 of pulmonary t.b. at the age of 44, leaving behind Charles and their three children, the youngest aged 13. This was clearly a dreadful loss to the family and had repercussions.
Chris
MWS
from Bham
There's definitely nothing to contradict your father's memory so I'd take that as true.
On a bit of a tangent, I notice that with Joseph & Mary Bannister in 1911 are 3 of their Stokes grandchildren. Did Selina Elizabeth and/or her husband die young? Or emigrate? There is a possible marriage for a Solomon in Pennsylvania though not sure if it's him atm.
On a bit of a tangent, I notice that with Joseph & Mary Bannister in 1911 are 3 of their Stokes grandchildren. Did Selina Elizabeth and/or her husband die young? Or emigrate? There is a possible marriage for a Solomon in Pennsylvania though not sure if it's him atm.
Richard Dye
master brummie
Richard Dye
master brummie
pjmburns
master brummie
1899 Kelly's has a list of names under The Cedars. Including Charles
The plaque is over 2 cottages/houses but there seem to be a bloock so I am assuming they were perhaps. 1, 2 etc The Cedars. (We have houses near us originally 1 and 2 The Elms).
So first image is of the line of houses.
Close u of the name plaque - just about readable
I worked on a house named The Elms on Barrows Lane?
This was my brothers take on Selina Elizabeth:
"The third arrival was Selina Elizabeth, born on 14 May 1876 at 58 Garrett's Lane. In the 1891 Census, she is shown as living with the family, aged 14, and employed as a Chain Maker. Subsequently she married, on 23 October 1892, at the Parish Church of Redall Hill (Cradley Heath) to Solomon Stokes, bachelor aged 19, employed as a Miner, living in Rowley Regis and son of Solomon Stokes, a Nail Maker. According to my father's notes of 1973/74, there were four children of this marriage: Fred, Joseph, Jack and Alice. All were based on Tyneside but were brought up by grandmother Bannister. Alice married G. Naylor, a Miner, and had two children. Fred served in the Northumberland Fusiliers in the Great War and was awarded the D.C.M ....."
(It seems from the same document that the eldest sister, Annie, was born on 29 December 1871. She was married, on Christmas Day 1889, at Holy Trinity Church, Old Hill, to James Priest, a bachelor aged 20, a Puddler,, of Cradley Heath, son of James Priest, Chain Maker. Mary (Parkes) Bannister seems to have enjoyed/endured? a long period of child-bearing - from 1871, Annie, then Martha , Selina and Mary, and finally, in 1888, Louisa).
Chris
pjmburns
master brummie
Wrong area - so not the same house.
Just a hunch there must be more then one house called the ElmsWrong area - so not the same house.
Example i know of 3 houses called the Laurels
This would explain the four children being brought up by "Grannie" Mary (Parkes) Bannister. Perhaps the declaration in the USA was a white lie, to circumvent the problem of obtaining a death certificate for Selina, or some other documentation, from the U.K. Assuming that he WAS a widower and hadn't just done a bunk.
My brother didn't manage to track down Selina's death date.
Chris
My brother didn't manage to track down Selina's death date.
Chris
MWS
from Bham
There is a naturalization record for him in 1914 on which gives his birthplace as Staffordshire and an arrival date of 28 Jan 1902. His age as changed though.
Annie Austin b Bham (the woman he married) emigrated in 1903 and Solomon Stokes was listed as a friend, the person she was joining.
Annie Austin b Bham (the woman he married) emigrated in 1903 and Solomon Stokes was listed as a friend, the person she was joining.
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MWS
from Bham
I doubt I would have been able to conform this before the 1921 census was released but I've found what happened to Selina and probably explains why her children moved to the northeast.
In 1915 Selina married an Albert Stone, reg. Dec 1915 South Shields.
In 1921 Selina and Albert are living in Jarrow. Selina is again listed as Elizabeth and Albert's is listed as b1879 in St George's, Bermuda.
In 1939 Selina is a widow and living alone (I think) at 44 Newmarch St, Jarrow.
Her death is reg. Mar 1939 Durham NE.
In 1915 Selina married an Albert Stone, reg. Dec 1915 South Shields.
In 1921 Selina and Albert are living in Jarrow. Selina is again listed as Elizabeth and Albert's is listed as b1879 in St George's, Bermuda.
In 1939 Selina is a widow and living alone (I think) at 44 Newmarch St, Jarrow.
Her death is reg. Mar 1939 Durham NE.
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