Worried about the Red Lion, Handsworth, and the Waterloo, Smethwick

[Viewfinder]

Greetings, everyone - I am a new member of this forum. I studied at Aston University in the early 1980s before returning to London and enjoying a 30-year career as a photographer. I visit Birmingham only rarely, though I am deeply fond of the city. Last month I made two day-trips and had fascinating long circular walks, with the camera of course: firstly Moor Street - Aston Campus - Newtown - Lozells - Handsworth - Soho - Smethwick - Cape Hill - Winson Green - Jewellery Quarter - Moor Street; and secondly Moor Street - Aston - Nechells - Washwood Heath - Alum Rock - Adderley Park - Small Heath - Sparkbrook - Balsall Heath - Bordesley - Digbeth - Moor Street.

I enjoyed every step, but one of the things that struck me was the abundance of derelict and converted pubs; you'll know that whole areas of the city are now without a working pub. I keep in touch with the Camra Heritage Pubs group, so knew that the Red Lion in Handsworth and the Waterloo in Smethwick were closed. I noticed on my walks that both are boarded up - and worryingly a door has been forced at the Waterloo. The interior of the Red Lion has a fantastic array of decorative Minton tiles, while the basement grill room of the Waterloo is beautifully tiled with seafaring scenes. Does anyone on this forum know anything about the security of these marvellous pubs and any plans for their future?

 

[Astonian]

all pubs do have sleep in security by the brewers beleive it or not at night times even private land lords do for there premises plus additional securtity measures i can tell you that and to my last knowledge it was owned by an asian [ indian family ] whom live around the corner i have memos of the old lion ; i used to pll up there late saturday nights to sort out my grates of mlk and stock take my books there at 5 30 at the end of the week also i used to used it as i lived down the rd from there at six ways aston;
and it just one of the many pubs on our friday nght pub crawls fromthe tree at hockley up to the old star and garter on the old stret of west brom '
also i am an ex licence manager for the M.B brewerers best wishes Astonian;;

 

[brumgum]

The Waterloo was sold over a year ago and the owner said it would be up and running within twelve months according to this article which is now over a year old..
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/waterloo-hotel-in-smethwick-sold-for-150k-278498

Not sure what is happening with the Red Lion but it has had a banner across it for some time saying it was to become a Restaurant but i think it maybe still up for sale. It's an amazing building, a smaller version of the Barton's..
https://www.heritagepubs.org.uk/pubs/real-heritage-pub-entry.asp?pubid=166

 

[rosie]

Some work has been done on the roof of the Waterloo but I don't think they raised enough money for the rest of the conversion. It's such a shame, it's getting rapidly worse.
rosie.

 

[jennyann]

Thanks for posting Viewfinder. Your post reminded me of articles I saw in the late 1990's regarding the
stealing of complete pub interiors in Birmingham. Martin Mulleney said at that time that he thought
the interiors were being stolen to order and shipped overseas. The pubs you mention should be
protected and properly boarded up. There was a news group called Birmingham.misc back then and that's where
I remember reading the article. Martin was asking people who had connections in the USA in particular
if they had heard of any recent British pub set ups in their areas. Since then I believe more pubs have been stripped.https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Pubs+stripped+bare+by+gangs+of+looters.-a060195717

 

[jimbo]

Veiwfinder. Firstly, welcome to the Forum, secondly is it possible to see the "fruits of your labour" (have camera will post). I am sure all the members would gladly view any photos you care to post. It is a pity about the state of our pubs but no one (with the ability to do anything, ie: the Brewery's) seems to care. Sad.

 

[Viewfinder]

Many thanks for all your greetings, reminiscences, information and links. Both the Red Lion and the Waterloo are listed Grade II*, which of course is no protection against thieves and vandals. Such destruction of superb artistry and craftsmanship is utterly heart-breaking; I suspect this fate befell the wonderful tiled interior of the Bellefield, in Winson Green. Jennyann - the Pevsner Architectural Guide to Birmingham refers to several pubs in the city whose interiors were "stolen" - the exact word - in the 1990s.

I can thoroughly recommend this guide by Andy Foster and cheaply available through Amazon. Pevsners traditionally may have been a bit dry, but this new series of city guides has enlivened texts and splendid colour photos.

I must say I was quite shocked by the abundance of vacant and converted pubs in the Birmingham suburbs; the settlement of Muslims and Hindus is part of the reason. My circular walk through Lozells, Handsworth, Cape Hill and Winson Green last month took me past only six or seven working pubs on ten miles of main roads. Does anyone know if the Victorian interior of the Britannia, on Lichfield Road near Aston station, has been preserved since the conversion to a restaurant?

I also recommend 'Britain's Best Real Heritage Pubs' by Geoff Brandwood, which includes the Red Lion and the Waterloo in the Closed Pubs section, while the main gazetteer features descriptions and photos of the Bartons Arms, Anchor and White Swan in Digbeth, Red Lion in Erdington, Rose Villa Tavern in the Jewellery Quarter, Villa Tavern in Nechells, Black Horse at Northfield, and British Oak at Stirchley. For detailed histories and descriptions of these and other gems, see 'Birmingham Pubs 1890-1939' by Alan Crawford and Robert Thorne, published by the Victorian Society in 1975 and long out of print but available on an inter-library loan.

Jimbo - I shoot on black & white film and make prints in my darkroom; if I were not a technological idiot I could upload photos for you to see. Meanwhile, the Contact page of my website, www.nicholassack.com, features an Asian shop window in the Soho Road containing a mannequin of a toddler, religious icons, bras, and a harmonium - truly a surreal tableau. Two selections of my recent photos of the City of London and Docklands can be found on www.spitalfieldslife.com - type 'Nicholas Sack' in the search box a little way down on the right-hand side.

Very best wishes to you all.

 

[jimbo]

Viewfinder. Many thanks for the update and the link to contact page, will be having a look at that shortly. With regard to uploading photos to the Forum, there are many "techno" gifted on here who would be more than willing to assist. jimbo

 

[rosie]

In the Chronicle yesterday it says plans have been submitted to convert the Waterloo into six apartments, and to re-open the basement with it's famous tiles. Proposals have been welcomed by the Victorian Society as it is grade 2 listed. This seems to be a repeat of last years' news?
rosie.

 

[Viewfinder]

Thanks for that info, Rosie. I understand both the Waterloo and the Red Lion (Handsworth) are Grade II-starred, which is a higher status than plain Grade II. It would be a great shame to lose the ground floor bar of the Waterloo in the conversion, though of course the real treasure is the basement grill room. Keep us posted with developments, please.

 

[rosie]

I did try to look on the sandwell.gov website for the planning applications, didn't have much success I can usually find them but perhaps they are keeping them private for now. I will keep watch in the local paper!
rosie.

 

[rosie]

I went past The Waterloo today. There's a skip outside and a door is open, something must be happening!
rosie.

 

[Viewfinder]

I went past The Waterloo today. There's a skip outside and a door is open, something must be happening!
rosie.

Let's hope for the best, Rosie. Coincidentally I trawled the web last week for news about the Waterloo and the Red Lion (Handsworth). The owner of the Waterloo is encouraging local residents to come forward with ideas for the future use of the building. Lead has been stripped from the roof, and I fear for the condition of the bar, though perhaps the magnificent basement grill room remains intact.


The owner of the Red Lion has planning permission for conversion to a restaurant, but wants to sell because his interests now lie elsewhere. A guide price of £195k to £250k was not reached at a recent auction.

 

[rosie]

The Waterloo has a sign up now "To Let"!!!
It's in a dreadful state, I don't know what will happen as there's nothing in the local paper about it any more.
rosie.

 

[Viewfinder]

The Waterloo has a sign up now "To Let"!!!
It's in a dreadful state, I don't know what will happen as there's nothing in the local paper about it any more.
rosie.

It makes you want to weep with frustration, recalling the simple beauty of the ground-floor bar and the tiled extravagance of the basement grill room. The council should have stepped in to secure and maintain the property. Such an appalling waste...

 

[guilbert53]

The council should have stepped in to secure and maintain the property. Such an appalling waste...

Sadly there are fine buildings all over Birmingham that are bordered up and gradually decaying, but the council cant look after them all.

Even the fine Methodist Hall opposite the Victoria Law Courts has trees and shrubs growing out of parts of the tower (and other parts of the building).

I go round Birmingham a LOT taking photographs and you would not believe the number of fine old building being left to decay.

Here is just one as an example, but there are dozens and dozens of others around the city

 

[Astonian]

HI Rosie and Waterloo
I feel I can Comment On The RED lion Itself because in the mid fiftys and early sixtys i used to finish my rounds on the milk for midland counties
As you all know and read my threads in the past over the years it was one of our saturday night pub crawl from springhill down to the brook and on our way up
to old west brom and finish at the old city of the old star and garter pub
And in those days the lion was always packed and west indian guys playing dominoes and there was music bright and clean lots of people all mixing all together
and also atthe start of early sixties the trade was declineing for the manager pulled out and moved on new gaffer came in he could not pick up the trade
as you areall probaly aware there was another pub directly facing called the barral thats where every body drank so did we meaning my friends and Myself
there would be five of us in a group we drank in there buit prior to that that there was another pub just short of the barrall it was a no goer for nice peole
but never or less getting back on track its certainly is a cracking pubwith the right owners and managements could be agood earner
I am sure there was a red brick tiling out side but yes the inside is fantastic
Yes our friend waterloo is correct on the closure of pubs fast and furiosly why its because the population of the drinking brigade as changed and the
populations of district to diostrict are changing fast think and thinthe brewery are intrested in large pubs that can sell food
the other reason is through troublesom pubs of fights and the old one is druggs dealers and if you recall the travellrs rest bristol rd
it was the case of shop lifters stealing goods and meat from local trade in northfield all those years ago and they put it on pub tables selling it off big time
As the manager was not strong it was his firt big pub e could not handkle a small one he was a previous lorry driver before coming a pub manager
eventualy the police said enough was enough and with futue planning for bristol rd was a good time as ever to close it Alan,, Astonian,,,

 

[Phil]

Guilbert53

Yes there are loads of buildings all over Birmingham boarded up, Birmingham Council do in fact own some of them others are owned by speculators who are only in fact interested in the land they occupy. As most of them are listed in one way or another they are quite prepared to sit and wait until they degenerate into such a condition that they are in fact dangerous to the public at which time they will apply for permission to demolish.

 

[Skittlelady]

Some work has been done on the roof of the Waterloo but I don't think they raised enough money for the rest of the conversion. It's such a shame, it's getting rapidly worse.
rosie.

The Waterloo was sold and some work had been carried out now it's completely derelict,apparently the work the people who purchased the Waterloo wanted to carry out wasn't within the bounds of listed building status so it's now left to rot,such a shame,I know the last Landlords very well and they are so upset to see this once iconic Hostelry go to rack and ruin.

 

[rosie]

Hi Skittlelady, Such a shame that all that has been left to ruin.
I think it might have been Eric Avery the butcher in Shireland Road who supplied all their steaks!
Did you know the Puffing Billy (Raglan Rd.) was burned out a while ago? I hope "they" don't do anything to to the Waterloo!
rosie.

 

[Skittlelady]

Hi Skittlelady, Such a shame that all that has been left to ruin.
I think it might have been Eric Avery the butcher in Shireland Road who supplied all their steaks!
Did you know the Puffing Billy (Raglan Rd.) was burned out a while ago? I hope "they" don't do anything to to the Waterloo!
rosie.

Hi Rosie,No it wasn't Eric Avery that supplied the Waterloo it was Joe the Butcher of GF Fields in Shireland Road...I ran an off Licence in Shireland Road just up from the Waterloo and opposite Joe's Shop..

 

[Radiorails]

The Waterloo was sold and some work had been carried out now it's completely derelict,apparently the work the people who purchased the Waterloo wanted to carry out wasn't within the bounds of listed building status so it's now left to rot,such a shame,I know the last Landlords very well and they are so upset to see this once iconic Hostelry go to rack and ruin.

What was it that the owners of the Waterloo wanted to do that was prohibited? Was it externally or internally?
An unusual interior in the neo lavatorial style. I like it.

 

[rosie]

I remember Joe now! Thank you.

 

[Astoness]

inside in 2017 such a shame to see it like this but all too often we see this happening...most likely the real plan was to completely gut it from top to bottom and turn it all into accommodation for a quick profit but as rosie said whatever the plans they did not comply with listed building laws..

lyn

 

[Skittlelady]

Hi Skittlelady, Such a shame that all that has been left to ruin.
I think it might have been Eric Avery the butcher in Shireland Road who supplied all their steaks!
Did you know the Puffing Billy (Raglan Rd.) was burned out a while ago? I hope "they" don't do anything to to the Waterloo!
rosie.

 

[Robert Ensor (bob)]

inside in 2017 such a shame to see it like this but all too often we see this happening...most likely the real plan was to completely gut it from top to bottom and turn it all into accommodation for a quick profit but as rosie said whatever the plans they did not comply with listed building laws..

lyn

View attachment 137024

I have seen all these old bars and bar backs for sale here in America for years, it became a thing to have a real English bar, but I never gave it much thought where all these bars came from and the loss of some of my heritage
One of the faults of living in a country less than 300 years old.

 

[Richard Dye]

I have seen all these old bars and bar backs for sale here in America for years, it became a thing to have a real English bar, but I never gave it much thought where all these bars came from and the loss of some of my heritage
One of the faults of living in a country less than 300 years old.

Bob, absolutely...……..When I came to the US I took so much of what we had in Brum for granted! Now 50 years later I am really sad and looking to reclaim everything I miss.
There are a couple of bars in my town run by a couple of guys from Ireland, they serve pretty good F&C and occasionally good beer but the atmosphere is not the same!

 

[Skittlelady]

What was it that the owners of the Waterloo wanted to do that was prohibited? Was it externally or internally?
An unusual interior in the neo lavatorial style. I like it.

I think it was more internally...I really don't know for sure,It's just whats filtered through...Perhaps the new Owners wanted to change the Windows..This would have been a no no and to have new Windows to reflect the Property's Status would be so expensive,Then you have the beautiful tiled rooms..All costing lots of money that perhaps they didn't bargain for..No Car Parking which is another consideration....I think it all boils down to where the Hostelry is situated and the Clients that they could attract....Hard going...

 

[Skittlelady]

Re; The Waterloo Hotel...There is a You Tube Video that I have watched that shows the extent of the damage inside,Carol Field who was Landlady was totally shocked at the state of Building...It was actually recorded as a BBC. Documentry...Very interesting as the Video also shows the actual Auction and who bought the Hotel...

 

[Skittlelady]

View attachment 137025

This is the Puffing Billy on the Day it opened