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What can be gleened from Parish Registers?

R

rickfraser

proper brummie kid
Having performed all my research so far online, I don't know the answer to the following question - can somebody let me know please?

Do parish records contain other individual or family information other than the normal BMD/Census info I can get online?

In trying to trace my bookbinder ancestor John Fraser born about 1802 in Scotland, but married in 1829 in Edgbaston, I cannot think of a way of establishing exactly where in Scotland he was born, or who his parents were. None of the BMD data has this info.

Do parish records have anything at all that might provide a clue? All his children were christened in St Martins (already had some information on these from other kind board members), so maybe he was a keen church goer - would that be recorded anywhere? He died of Dysentery in 1847 in Birmingham, but I can't find any burial details either.

Any ideas ?

Thanks.
 
Hi Rick
On looking at Family Search, I see there are 76 John Frasers born 1802 in Scotland, so unless you have his parents name it may not be of any use. Do the census not tell you where he came from in Scotland, because then it may be of help? Others may also have better info for you.
Lynda
 
Hi Lynda. No more info available through the normal online channels. Only the 1841 census has him in a place I can definitely say is him (in Birmingham trading as a bookbinder) as he died before the 1851 census. The 1841 just says Scotland.

His marriage by Bannes just says "of this parish" and is a simple two line entry.

I have been musing on this dead-end since 2006, returning to a spurt of activity every now and then when I think of something to look for - all to no avail so far.

That's why I am asking the more experienced people out there who have looked at actual parish records (rather than just online like me) whether there may be some other source - I don't know, church choir; subscriptions; whatever.

As you found out, John Fraser is a very common name, so I have to narrow down the list of possibilities somehow. As posted in my previous question on this site, this John is in a long line of John Frasers, so it may be his father was also called John, but I cannot simply assume this as he may have been a second son for example where his elder brother was named after his father. I just don't know at present.
 
Just in case you want to look... [FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Parish registers for the whole of Scotland have been deposited at New Register House, Princes St., Edinburgh. There is a search fee.[/FONT][/FONT]
 
Thanks Mike

I have trawled through "ScotlandsPeople" (where I must say there is quite a bit of useful information over and above the basics), but it has already cost me a fortune. Their charges are by credits that you have to purchase and use up. Cost 1 credit to view the resulting search, and then another 5 for a particular view of something. So if you haven't found the right result first time the cost soon mounts up. I would prefer a yearly subscription that covers all lookups like Ancestry, but that is the way it is.

I already have a list of possible parents in Scotland assuming my John knew his exact age in 1841 (or the person giving the information to the enumerator did). The problem is I have no way of knowing at present which it is likely to be (no town or district of birth on 1841 census or marriage entry).

My mind goes numb trying to think of something that may have his name in plus some clue of birthplace or parents or siblings - and that also has confirmed link to my lineage (wife, children, place of work etc). I do know (well, 99.9 percent sure) that his place of trade in 1839....

Robson's Birmingham Street Key of 1839 shows these trades at 29 Ann Street, Birmingham :-

Fullewood, Watt & Fraser - Book Binders
plus
Hunt and Jay - Milliners

This seems to tie in quite nicely with John Fraser and Martha Hunt (my John's wife).
 
Thank you Suzanne, I will indeed keep that in mind. In itself it doesn't help my immediate quest, but once I have solved that it might help in the next link back.
 
Hi Rick. As you do know that John Fraser was married in Edgbaston it might be worth looking at the original church record or a good transcript, (as distinct from the IGI), as entries by 1829 were more full than in say 18C and it might be possible to learn the name of John's father or family witnesses. The registers still existing are on this link:
https://www.bmsgh.org/parish/warw/tyaib/cofeindex.htm
You could try looking for siblings married in the same church. Hugh Wallis site is excellent where you know the area to search. The link is too long to be accepted by BHF so search for IGI batch numbers, click on Warwickshire & go to Edgbaston. I see there was a Daniel married in 1812 so that is perhaps too long an interval.
Another strategy I use is to identify siblings & seek first name resonance, though that is a big task as I know from experience. As children were named after parents / grandparents/uncles & aunts there was often a pattern.
You could even try SAFHS:
https://www.safhs.org.uk/SAFHS_Projects.asp
If you cannot trace your family back you could add detail from directories
https://www.historicaldirectories.org/hd/
or newspapers
https://newspapers.bl.uk/blcs/
or maps of the area John lived in in 1841.
Good luck, as you have set yourself a real challenge.
 
Thanks for that BordesleyExile, interesting links.

I do have a copy of the Marriage Record already but unfortunately it is just the bottom entry of three in a book, showing that John Fraser married Martha Hunt by Bannes, and both were "of this parish". The witness was a Joseph Harrison, so no obvious relation (I can't find a marriage of him to any female Fraser either). I did find three marriages for a Joseph Harrison around the same period in Edgbaston but not to a Fraser - only Grainger, Latham and Hobday.

I have the feeling that John was here on his own but can't work out his history just yet.
 
Hello Rick this must be so frustrating for you. My gt granny was of Scottish decent and I had a tough time sorting out her family but I suppose I was lucky. My gt granny was Margaret McKnight she was christened at St Pillips in 1837 which also gave her birth date and parents John McKnight and Margaret Forsyth. I was lucky to contact another family member researching the family on the Genes Reunited Site. He found a record of John amd Margaret's marriage in 1829 in an old Parochial Register in Kirkcudbright. Again I was lucky as other McKnight family came to Brum and they all lived in Well St for over 40 years. Sometimes these families came together as they had a common interest. I will check all my certificates for the name Frazer.
Good luck with your search.:)
 
Thats a real shame, Rick. Its really unlucky that fathers were not recorded in Edgbaston at the time of the marriage. Detail varied according to the style of the recorder.
Would the Fraser clan have come from a particular part of Scotland or were they dispersed?
In 1841, even where individuals knew their age exactly, the enumerators rounded down the age, so 35-39 was recorded as 35.
It might be worth investigating other Frasers in Birmingham who had been born in Scotland as there could be family/social links. In 1841 there was 1 other Fraser, in 1851 there were 4 and 7 in 1871 according to FMP. From there you could access the IGI through the Hugh Wallis batch numbers if he covered Scotland.
 
Thanks Wendy. I have been pretty lucky with a lot of the research I have carried out but this is a real poser (and the essential one to trace my lineage wouldn't you know).

BordesleyExile, the other Fraser in 1841 not in my family group was Hugh - a tailor according to Ancestry. Don't know if connected.

I can find all sorts of Frasers but so far nothing links them to mine.
 
When I started to research my family there was nothing online. We had hardly heard of computers, and we travelled miles to do research, we looked in 'The Parish Chest.' In other words we looked at every piece of paper that connected our families with the parish. The registers, the IGI had to be verified by looking at the originals, the churchwardens accounts, they tell you how the parish money was spent, sometimes on your ancestor who had fallen by the wayside. Another record is the licence to live in a parish, to avoid paying for a parishioner who wasn't born in the parish the Wardens moved them on back to the parish where they were born.

There is one more record that might give you all the information you are looking for Rick. As your ancestor was a bookbinder he most probably would have served an Apprenticeship, so you need to look for an Indenture. I know that many of the English apprentice records are at Kew, but I can't say where the scottish ones are.

Good Luck:)
 
Hi Nick,

See your previous thread- finding parents or birthplace
see message 2 within the thread.

Some of the Children were Baptised with the name Frazier , rather than Fraser.

It would be wise to state the variations in the Surname in your quest.

Look for all variations of Surname on Census and IG1 for possible family of your ancestor. It is possible that his Brothers or Sisters also came to Birmingham around the same time.
Certainly follow Hugh's Linage, Dont dismiss anything there may be a connection.
If you cannot see a connection , keep records of your searches, in years to come you may have a breakthrough and find that you had the details all along.
Family history is not always easy and is an expensive hobby.

I too have an ancestor that Just appeared in Birmingham and died before 1841 Census. I have no way of knowing where he came from.
The only way I will find out is by obtaining every Parish Christening of Similar names in England. Phew, it is not easy is it ? :rolleyes:

Bo
 
Hello Di.

It's just what information is held in the paper records that I don't know. If it's just what I already know and that's it, then I am no better off. I know how to use a computer to do the research, but because I have never done so, I don't know how to go about searching the parish records... do I just turn up , make an appointment or what?

I have looked at the apprentice records (well, online), but nothing so far has provided a link that I can definitely say "he's the one".

And hello again Bo. Yes I took in what you said last post. I do look for variants of the name Fraser too and I haven't discounted Hugh yet - just need to trace hime to see if there is a common point somewhere.

If only it wasn't so expensive!!
 
Very few Parish records are held by the Church,most are at the local records office.
It is always best to ring and make an appointment.
For some reason some of them want to see 2 forms of ID,Stafford are really strict on this.

Not quite on topic but on some of the baptism and marriage records that I searched (before I began to search via computer)the Vicar would make notes in the margin.Nice little remarks like the day was beautiful and sunny,or ***** made a very handsome bride.
 
Thanks Alberta.

Ok then. So where do I go? Who do I make appointment with? how much will it cost me?

The details I already have are (all baptisms at St Martins, Birmingham):-


  • 1802 abt (born in Scotland)
  • 1829 (marriage to Martha Hunt in Edgbaston Parish Church);
  • 1831 (baptism of daughter Isabella - address - Cheapside, Birmingham);
  • 1833 (baptism of daughter Martha - address - St Martins Lane, Birmingham);
  • 1837 (baptism of son John - address - Sun Street, Birmingham);
  • 1839 (Trading at 29 Ann Street, Birmingham as a bookbinder);
  • 1840 (baptism of son Robert - address - Essex Street, Birmingham);
  • 1841 (census - address - Essex Street, Birmingham);
  • 1845 (baptism of daughter Matilda - address - Inge Street, Birmingham);
  • 1847 (death - 45 Inge Street, Birmingham)

Where and how can I look up physical records for these events/addresses/etc?
 
Hello Rick, My aplogies for calling you Nick earlier.
It was late last night or early this morning :)

I am unsure what you want from the Parish records ?
An actual copy of the baptism ?
Or are you hoping to glean more information ?

In previous post I listed all info from copy of original Baptism
There was no other info on the Baptism Certificate

Birmingham Central Library will have the records from St Martin's on Mircofiche.
It will only cost you the price of a photocopy as you already have the dates and surname including variation the search should not take you too long.
I am sure they have the Parish records for Egbaston too.


Or you can purchase Disc's of St Martins for £75.00 from-
Birmingham and Midland Society for Genealogy and Heraldry
Maragret Street
Birmingham
B3 3BS

The reason I mentioned stating the Variation in name in your posts and threads was for others who read your messages.
Basically to save them time in trying to help you.
Also wise to mention that you have another thread going of the same Family Name, this will save another person doing the same research that has already been done.

I will I.M you

Bo
 
Rick

If most of the records you need to investigate for the moment are for parishes in what is now termed Birmingham then most of the records or copies of the records be that film or other wise are probably in Birmingham Central Library. Try this link to find out more

https://www.birmingham.gov.uk/cs/Satellite?c=Page&childpagename=Lib-Central-Archives-and-Heritage%2FPageLayout&cid=1223092755830&pagename=BCC%2FCommon%2FWrapper%2FWrapper

Just in case your bit of Birmingham was in Warwickshire you could also try

https://www.warwickshire.gov.uk/Web/corporate/pages.nsf/Links/DEEC2EB9DB9499B780256A330054CA30

As to visiting these these archives, their web pages tell you how, what ID you need and what facilities they offer and how to book if you need to. Or you could phone them or email them and tell them what you are looking for and if they hold the records you need.

Helen
 
Thanks for the links Helen.

Bo, Thanks for the info (and the I.M. - noted). Since I have all the usual details I can expect to get from BMD and available census data etc, I am trying to establish whether there is SOME OTHER documented information that just might have a clue to my John's birthplace or parentage.....

I don't know but can imagine for example that maybe the parish priest might have written down his funeral eulogy for all his 'clients' so he could read them out - he may have said something like "dearly departed John... from xyz in Scotland... son of abc and def ...etc". If those records existed would they be available?

There may have been some other inconspicuous document at the time, that might now just contain a clue.

Does one have physical access to ALL documents that exist in a parish?

The records that have been transcribed for on-line use may not have had a 'box' for some information and that might have been left out. Is that possible?
 
Has anybody seen ANY information in Parish Records that NEVER appear in the 'normal' transcribed documents I may have already seen? I can then decide if I can afford the trip and expenses of a manual search.:)
 
I have seen parish records that carry an additional note about someone
or something that was particularly relevant to my research.

Without viewing the record itself it would be most unlikely the info
i found would have come to light purely by online research.

Having said that, as to whether or not particular information may have
been recorded would depend on other factors.

The place, the time, the parish priest, or the supposed relevance,
would all be factors i imagine and apart from what was required
to be transcribed by law anything else is a bonus.

My advice, if at all practicable go and see for yourself.

regards
Neville...
 
Hi rick

The info in Parish records can go from absolute basic info to a record of what the weather was like on the day, you just never know. Paper and ink was a precious commodity so it followed, if you or your family gave generously to the parish church, the priest would have been more willing in adding extra info, maybe

bren
 
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