Appreciate any info on Blacksmiths/Smithies located in Snow Hill in the 1860s. Possibly in the name of E Jones. Thanks Viv.
-
Welcome to this forum . We are a worldwide group with a common interest in Birmingham and its history. While here, please follow a few simple rules. We ask that you respect other members, thank those who have helped you and please keep your contributions on-topic with the thread.
We do hope you enjoy your visit. BHF Admin Team -
HI folks the server that hosts the site completely died including the Hdd's and backups.
Luckily i create an offsite backup once a week! this has now been restored so we have lost a few days posts.
im still fixing things at the moment so bear with me and im still working on all images 90% are fine the others im working on now
we are now using a backup solution
Snow Hill Passage
- Thread starter Vivienne14
- Start date
In addition to those above (going slightly outside the period asked for):
1858 Jones J., Honduras wharf,.Snowhill (Farrier)
1862 Jones E. 9A Snow hill
1867 Jones Edward, , snow hill passage, Snow hill
1868 Jones Edward, , snow hill passage, Snow hill
1873 Jones Edward, , Snow hill passage, 80 Snow hill
1876 No Edward Jones
Honduras wharf is between 81 & 82, Snow Hill passage is the same as no 80 snow hill
mike
1858 Jones J., Honduras wharf,.Snowhill (Farrier)
1862 Jones E. 9A Snow hill
1867 Jones Edward, , snow hill passage, Snow hill
1868 Jones Edward, , snow hill passage, Snow hill
1873 Jones Edward, , Snow hill passage, 80 Snow hill
1876 No Edward Jones
Honduras wharf is between 81 & 82, Snow Hill passage is the same as no 80 snow hill
mike
That's great Mike. Edward Jones is the blacksmith ancestor I'm looking for. Many thanks. Viv.
Thanks for the info Shera. He was by 1881 living at 5 court 3 H Snow Hill and wonder if there is any relationship with Snow Hill Passage ? Can we tell from the records if Snow Hill Passage was simply a commercial area, not domestic ? Viv.
Thanks again Mike. Looks like my ancestor was a blacksmith in that area then for about 40 years; I assume a very physically demanding job. Then when he died (abt 1892) his wife set up a grocery shop in Hospital St. That's put a bit more flesh on the family history bones. Very grateful. Viv.
Does anyone have any or know of any old pics of Snow Hill? In particular I'm looking for any pic that shows an advertising sign of an E. Jones - blacksmith which I am told was visible on Snow Hill. He was a blacksmith/shoeing smith on Snow Hill until around the 1870s. A bit of a shot in the dark, but I'd like to try and trace a pic for one of my relations. Regards Viv.
Thanks Aidan. Been looking through the different threads but keep getting sidetracked by loads of other interesting stuff. Could take me some time! Thanks for the tip. Viv
horsencart
master brummie
In the 1870 directory there is a
Jones Edward shoeing smith, Snow Hill passage Snow Hill,
Snow Hill Passage was just of 78 Snow Hill
Jones Edward shoeing smith, Snow Hill passage Snow Hill,
Snow Hill Passage was just of 78 Snow Hill
horsencart
master brummie
Hi Vivienne14, your post is 10 years old but I've just joined this year and if you're still a member I too am looking for any info on Snow Hill Passage (where is or was it located?)...my great grandad had a business there in 1884 (woodturner) George Dale Ltd.
Welcome Brumluver. I’ve moved your post here as it might throw a little light on Snow Hill Passage.
Can anyone confirm if Snow Hill Passage became Clive Passage please (as per Mossg’s suggestion in post #15) ? Thanks. Viv.
Can anyone confirm if Snow Hill Passage became Clive Passage please (as per Mossg’s suggestion in post #15) ? Thanks. Viv.
brummy-lad
master brummie
Interesting one this, I can't find a reference to Snow Hill Passage after 1903, BUT Clive passage shows up on the 1881 Census. I will do a bit more delving into this.
brummy-lad
master brummie
Vivienne, the last reference to Snow Hill Passage in Kelly's is 1912, it does look like it became Clive Passage. Both 'Clive Passage, Snow Hill' and 'Snow Hill Passage @ 78 Snow Hill' are listed in 1912. The map shows Clive passage adjacent to No. 78 so I think it is a legitimate assumption.
Attachments
Mike is that a typo or was it also once called Canal Passage ? Viv.
Sorry Viv, have deleted the reference to Canal passage. Both Snow hill passage and Canal passage were between 78 and 81. Only Clive passage and neither of the others is on the c1889 map, though Clive passage is not mentioned in Kellys of that period. Below is the c1889 map with 78 and 81 marked. Also the 1872 PO directory , which mentions Canal passage. It is not very clear to me whether at some time the part of what was later Clive passage was in 1872 named Canal passage, leading on to Snow hill,passage , or whether it was a separate entrance not shown on the map. The 1839 and 1824 early maps, though much smaller in scale, seem to show the same
arrangement of buildings as on the c1880s map
arrangement of buildings as on the c1880s mapjonesfarriers
Brummie babby
Hi Vivienne
I am also researching a shoeing smith in Snow Hill Passage and Honduras Wharf from 1860-90s, I wondered if we are looking for the same guy - Edward Jones? I think I've figured out where it was from cross-referencing Kelly's, White's, PO directory, NLS maps, census etc. it's amazing how the clues eventually fit together.
Pip
Hi Pip,
I'm related to Edward Jones, (shoeing smith at Honduras Walk and Snow Hill Passage) He's on my grandma's side of the family. He's my gt gt grandfather. My aunt told me there was once an advert of his services painted on a wall along Snow Hill, but as yet I've never been able to track it down on old photos. As you'll probably know, that part of Birmingham was altered considerably during the development of the road system in the 1960s.
I suggest you look at the Snow Hill Passage thread too.
A bit of family info
Alice Jones (1871 -1940),- daughter of Edward Jones and my grans mother (she had a shop in Hospital Street)
Edward shoeing smith (1827 - 1892) was married to Sarah Holliway (1831 - 1907)
Edward's father was also Edward Jones
I'm related to Edward Jones, (shoeing smith at Honduras Walk and Snow Hill Passage) He's on my grandma's side of the family. He's my gt gt grandfather. My aunt told me there was once an advert of his services painted on a wall along Snow Hill, but as yet I've never been able to track it down on old photos. As you'll probably know, that part of Birmingham was altered considerably during the development of the road system in the 1960s.
I suggest you look at the Snow Hill Passage thread too.
A bit of family info
Alice Jones (1871 -1940),- daughter of Edward Jones and my grans mother (she had a shop in Hospital Street)
Edward shoeing smith (1827 - 1892) was married to Sarah Holliway (1831 - 1907)
Edward's father was also Edward Jones
Last edited:
jonesfarriers
Brummie babby
Hi Vivienne, nice to meet you! Thanks for confirming this - how wonderful.
This is a great thread and is exactly what I've been finding this week - almost certain that Clive Passage is right, but can't be 100%. I found it interesting to "walk up the street" both in the census and the Kelley's directory at the same time, cross-checking the pubs and crossroads etc. I can see now why Kelley's call it a "map" (at first I was looking for a graphical map).
I came to the conclusion that Edward was at the "Smithy" marked on the map mikejee includes at 78, which seems to be on a bridge over the canal. At the time he was living at the red pin in Court 5 House 3, behind roughly 69 so would have been a nice short walk to work.
I have just been researching Alice, so it's amazing to meet a descendant! I am descended from Edward's brother Thomas who also became a farrier / shoeing smith like their father Edward and later veterinary surgeon. His son Alfred was my great grandfather who died in 1911 when my grandad Albert was 1, and he was orphaned so he never knew anything of this family until my research started a couple of years ago. It's wonderful to uncover it all - and I'm constantly amazed at how much can be pieced back together.
I've recently been adding this Edward to "my family" which includes father Edward and Thomas and more, but I haven't yet got the 100% proof linking them to be honest (I'm ridiculously fastidious). The circumstantial evidence is probably around 99% so I should go with it. What complicates it is that both Edward father and son had smithy's and so I have a suspicion one of the business might be swapped around? I have two clues to this...
There's another workshop at 84½ Mott street [Kelly's directory 1867 p76 and p222] "Jones ;Edward, general smith, 84½ Mott street". It made me wonder if this was son Edward, only because it's roughly on the crossroads with Howard St, which is where Sarah Holloway's family lived. I love to think about how people met, so maybe I'm over-romanticising this one.
The second clue is that in the White's directory it lists both work and home address for some trades - a gift for researchers! "Edward Jones - blacksmith Honduras Wharf; house Little Hampton St. " [Whites 1849 Directory p194 ]. I know that father Edward and Ann (Moreton) and family lived in Little Hampton St from 1840-60s, so I wondered if it was the father instead. Actually now I write this - Edward son was already 20 in 1849 and was living in Little Hampton St in 1851 census, so it could still be him working in Honduras Wharf.
A couple of years ago before I knew about these locations and was just looking at the 1851 census, it seemed to me that five of Edward + Anns's sons were working for him at the same smithy: Thomas, Edward and Henry were all blackmiths in their 20s, and teenagers Samuel and James were file/tool makers - probably supporting the family business. I guess I've always had that image in my mind of them all working together. Perhaps son Edward went off to open his own smithy at Mott St, before 1867 leaving the family business in Honduras Wharf / Snow Hill Passage. (If it is the same Edward) by 1853 he was living in Howard St with Sarah's family (according to their marriage) so perhaps he wanted to work closer to their house too.
Edward's brother Thomas then had his own smithy at 75 ½ Lionel Street just before Summer Row "75 ½ Jones Thomas, shoeing smith" [Kelley's 1879 Streets p75]. In 1871 census Thomas, Charlotte (Latham) and family was living at "61 Lionel St (back of)", when having Ellen, and Alf (my great-grandad), which was a few doors up, as 75 ½ Lionel Street is on the previous page in the census and listed as unoccupied. It is also shown as a Smithy on the same map (as above). Thomas later "employs two men" to help run his farrier business as he mainly had older daughters.
I am 100% sure that "my Thomas" is the one who married Charlotte Latham as I have several handwriting matches on marriage witness signatures and later 1911 census records - again such a gift. (I feel I can't move on until a connection is proved)
I have loads more stories on my side, and of course still piecing together some parts. Alf and his brother Tom have an amazing tale - but that's another story.
regards,
Pip
paul stacey
master brummie
great stories and history.
jonesfarriers
Brummie babby
Hi Vivienne,
I've done a lot more research into the forge at Snow Hill Passage and I now feel clear on the story behind the "two Edwards" and the connection between our families. I pulled together all the references I could find from the directories, census, newspapers and other notes in these forum threads, and put it into a single timeline to see if it made sense or if there were any conflicts. I also added in the census and baptism records for the two (or three) families and looked at how work and home fitted together. I think it all makes sense!
It does seem that Snow Hill Passage was Clive Passage, and later I think the northern north-south part remained being called Snow Hill Passage, while the east-west part was called Wharf Passage. The forge is sometimes referred to as being at Honduras Wharf or Snow Hill Wharf. Also I've seen it twice called being on the bridge, so I'm now 100% convinced it's the "Smithy" in that map on the bridge over the canal on Snow Hill at the entrance to Clive Passage.
I have ruled out the Edward at 84½ Mott street - he is a third person who seems unrelated, and was doing general "jobbing" smith work, rather than shoeing or farrier work which our Edward(s) and Thomas focused on. I can also see that by 1878 Edward has left, and a Mr Henry Mosely has taken over the "bridge forge" - I found a funny advert for him finding six ducks and demanding payment. I know son Edward was living at Hospital St. later, but I don't know where his later forge was - there's always a mystery to solve.
I have attached my research notes with the timeline and conclusions. I've coloured the son/father to separate them which seems to work! I hope it's useful to you. Let me know if there's any mistakes - I really went down the rabbit hole on this one so may have got a bit blinkered.
Here are some adverts that Edward and Thomas (son Edward's brother) ran in the newspaper:
Birmingham Daily Gazette 23 April 1867
Birmingham Mail 13 + 14 March 1885
Birmingham Daily Post 16 September 1878
I've done a lot more research into the forge at Snow Hill Passage and I now feel clear on the story behind the "two Edwards" and the connection between our families. I pulled together all the references I could find from the directories, census, newspapers and other notes in these forum threads, and put it into a single timeline to see if it made sense or if there were any conflicts. I also added in the census and baptism records for the two (or three) families and looked at how work and home fitted together. I think it all makes sense!
It does seem that Snow Hill Passage was Clive Passage, and later I think the northern north-south part remained being called Snow Hill Passage, while the east-west part was called Wharf Passage. The forge is sometimes referred to as being at Honduras Wharf or Snow Hill Wharf. Also I've seen it twice called being on the bridge, so I'm now 100% convinced it's the "Smithy" in that map on the bridge over the canal on Snow Hill at the entrance to Clive Passage.
I have ruled out the Edward at 84½ Mott street - he is a third person who seems unrelated, and was doing general "jobbing" smith work, rather than shoeing or farrier work which our Edward(s) and Thomas focused on. I can also see that by 1878 Edward has left, and a Mr Henry Mosely has taken over the "bridge forge" - I found a funny advert for him finding six ducks and demanding payment. I know son Edward was living at Hospital St. later, but I don't know where his later forge was - there's always a mystery to solve.
I have attached my research notes with the timeline and conclusions. I've coloured the son/father to separate them which seems to work! I hope it's useful to you. Let me know if there's any mistakes - I really went down the rabbit hole on this one so may have got a bit blinkered.
Here are some adverts that Edward and Thomas (son Edward's brother) ran in the newspaper:
Birmingham Daily Gazette 23 April 1867
Birmingham Mail 13 + 14 March 1885
Birmingham Daily Post 16 September 1878
jonesfarriers
Brummie babby
Hi Brumluver
I looked for George Dale in all the directories I have (Kelleys, PO, Morris, Whites, Dix etc.) while I was searching for my ancestor, and I couldn't see him listed and he wasn't listed in Snow Hill Passage or under "wood turners".
I did find one address entry in the 1861 Birmingham Corporation General and Trades Directory by William Cornish (on Google Books)
- 47 Great Hampton Street, (cross: 69,Constitution Hill). Page 618
and Dale Geo., jeweller, 173, NewJohn St west - page 113 - but that seems less relevant.
Where did you find your original reference?
Thank you Pip, that's very interesting.
I had a look at the Georeferencing maps and Google and decided the forge was here (see attachments) on today's view - around the traffic lights/crossing. Referring to it as the 'bridge forge' makes sense. Obviously Constitution Hill was once narrower at that point.
Shall have a look at your document and compare with my papers.
I had a look at the Georeferencing maps and Google and decided the forge was here (see attachments) on today's view - around the traffic lights/crossing. Referring to it as the 'bridge forge' makes sense. Obviously Constitution Hill was once narrower at that point.
Shall have a look at your document and compare with my papers.
