My Question is Why Were The B.C.T. Trams Trolleys and Buses Painted Blue and Cream ?

[horsencart]

My Question is Why Were The B.C.T. Trams Trolleys and Buses Painted Blue and Cream ?, I ask this because the colour for many Birmingham Corparation vehicles is/was Green the if you look today at a corparation vehicles of today it will be Green, in this last summer I saw a Green water But van and that was Green the Dustbin Lorrys were/are Green in the B.C.T. days the bus stops were Green, the so why were the buses Blue and Cream,


My own theory is the it goes back the the trams and that someone in authority decided that they did not like the idea of Green trams on the horse road, (I may be wrong)

 

[Lloyd]

Re: My Question is Why Were The B.C.T. Trams Trolleys and Buses Painted Blue and Crea

An interesting question, and although I don't know the factual answer I might hazard a guess, based on the following.

When Birmingham Corporation set up a Tramways Department to operate its own trams on lines it owned (and had laid by virtue of 'Corporation Acts of Parliament') in 1904, until then leased to various private operating companies, the man they picked as the first General Manager was Lincolnshire born Alfred Baker, who after starting his career in transport at Nottingham had moved to London where he became Tramways Manager of the London County Council (L.C.C.).

As a new operator, and one financed by the City's Corporation (although in those days the department ran at a profit, which was used to reduce the city's rates bill) his standards were of the highest, and remained so throughout the life of the department.
The existing 'company' trams were green (Birmingham City Tramways Co Ltd, and South Staffordshire Tramways Co Ltd) or dark red (City of Birmingham Tramways Co Ltd) so a different colour was required to define the Corporation's cars from the others - and other than gaudy yellows and pinks, or difficult to keep clean white, the only obvious other colour was Blue.

The actual shades chosen were known as Prussian Blue and Primrose, and as the old paints were mixed with, and later overpainted by heavy oil-based varnishes, the shades appeared darker than they really were, pale yellow and almost black. These colours remained as the fleet livery until the City's transport department passed to the then new West Midlands County Council Passenger Transport Executive (WMPTE) in 1968, when the Prussian Blue, which was not by then a shade covered by the BS (British Standard) colour chart, was changed to a slightly lighter shade.

Now, as to why the Corporation's other vehicles (dustcarts, lorries, etc) and lamp posts (and even the tram wire support poles) were Green - any ideas?

 

[horsencart]

Re: My Question is Why Were The B.C.T. Trams Trolleys and Buses Painted Blue and Crea

As to why the colour green for the dustcarts ect ect ect I have a theory or two one is they (Birmingham Corparation got a deal for cheap Green paint or it was a whim or fancy by someone at the council or that colour was chosen becauce it was not the same as any near opperating councils

The same for the buses they had to be different from anyone running buses near to Brum Walsall, West Brom, and the Red, I suspect that the true answer may be lost in the past

An interesting question, and although I don't know the factual answer I might hazard a guess, based on the following.

When Birmingham Corporation set up a Tramways Department to operate its own trams on lines it owned (and had laid by virtue of 'Corporation Acts of Parliament') in 1904, until then leased to various private operating companies, the man they picked as the first General Manager was Lincolnshire born Alfred Baker, who after starting his career in transport at Nottingham had moved to London where he became Tramways Manager of the London County Council (L.C.C.).

As a new operator, and one financed by the City's Corporation (although in those days the department ran at a profit, which was used to reduce the city's rates bill) his standards were of the highest, and remained so throughout the life of the department.
The existing 'company' trams were green (Birmingham City Tramways Co Ltd, and South Staffordshire Tramways Co Ltd) or dark red (City of Birmingham Tramways Co Ltd) so a different colour was required to define the Corporation's cars from the others - and other than gaudy yellows and pinks, or difficult to keep clean white, the only obvious other colour was Blue.

The actual shades chosen were known as Prussian Blue and Primrose, and as the old paints were mixed with, and later overpainted by heavy oil-based varnishes, the shades appeared darker than they really were, pale yellow and almost black. These colours remained as the fleet livery until the City's transport department passed to the then new West Midlands County Council Passenger Transport Executive (WMPTE) in 1968, when the Prussian Blue, which was not by then a shade covered by the BS (British Standard) colour chart, was changed to a slightly lighter shade.

Now, as to why the Corporation's other vehicles (dustcarts, lorries, etc) and lamp posts (and even the tram wire support poles) were Green - any ideas?

 

[Thylacine]

Re: My Question is Why Were The B.C.T. Trams Trolleys and Buses Painted Blue and Crea

Good question, Bammot, and good answer, Lloyd! :thumbsup:

 

[Lloyd]

Re: My Question is Why Were The B.C.T. Trams Trolleys and Buses Painted Blue and Crea

The operation of Corporation buses did not start until 1912, eight years into the tramway dept's life, and even then were only running feeder services to the city - Selly Oak trams from Northfield, Rednal and Rubery until the lines could be extended that far.
Other corporations could not operate over their boundaries, as also Birmingham couldn't - the only time the trams went over the city boundary was when they operated on behalf of the Corporations of West Bromwich, Wednesbury, Oldbury and Dudley on the former company lines to Dudley and Wednesbury - effectively hired on to save those boroughs the trouble of setting up their own tramway departments.
Midland Red only operated within the City at first, and when the Corporation declared its intention to run its own bus services (and take over the operation of vehicles and crews, as had happened in the tramway takeovers) BMMO took the decision to run services outside the city, although many ran into the centre, charging 'protective' higher fares inside the boundary, a percentage of which passed to the city's coffers. The story of the "1914 agreement" has been told elsewhere on this site, and sufficient vehicles, staff and the Tennant St garage were taken over to operate the mileage of routes totally within the city, and the buses involved were repainted from Red & Black into Blue & Cream.

In the late 1920s and early 30s many operators changed their liveries to include more darker areas, often reducing or eliminating the lighter whites and creams claiming the darker colours were "Easier to keep clean" (in reality, less noticeable when dirty!).
Only one Birmingham bus was so treated, AEC Q type no 93, which was delivered in all-over blue with three cream bands. The transport committee did not approve of this revised livery, and the bus was repainted into standard livery at first overhaul (when it was also converted from Petrol to Diesel engined).

 

[Bill Parker]

Re: My Question is Why Were The B.C.T. Trams Trolleys and Buses Painted Blue and Crea

I have given this some considerable thought and have come the the obvious solution. The buses are blue and the dustcarts are green so that there is no confusion during busy times....................simples!!

I for one have lost count of the times I have nearly waved a dustcart down when I thought it was a bus and it is far to embarassing to recall the details that happened when I once emptied my dustbin on the platform of a Quinton 9 at dusk.

 

[Thylacine]

Re: My Question is Why Were The B.C.T. Trams Trolleys and Buses Painted Blue and Crea

Nice one, Bill!

 

[horsencart]

Re: My Question is Why Were The B.C.T. Trams Trolleys and Buses Painted Blue and Crea

A dustman working at dusk it does not sound right

I have given this some considerable thought and have come the the obvious solution. The buses are blue and the dustcarts are green so that there is no confusion during busy times....................simples!!

I for one have lost count of the times I have nearly waved a dustcart down when I thought it was a bus and it is far to embarassing to recall the details that happened when I once emptied my dustbin on the platform of a Quinton 9 at dusk.

 

[Bill Parker]

Re: My Question is Why Were The B.C.T. Trams Trolleys and Buses Painted Blue and Crea

A dustman working at dusk it does not sound right

To be honest I did have my suspicions

 

[Radiorails]

Re: My Question is Why Were The B.C.T. Trams Trolleys and Buses Painted Blue and Crea

Good replies but the original question Why? has not been answered I feel.

I don't have the answer but from memory I remember reading that some of the early horse bus/horse tram, steam tram colours were green and cream, and lake and cream. Add to this the red of Midland Red it would seem that the only other primary colour left, that would be suitable for a busy, smoky city, might well have been a shade of blue.

The South Staff Tramways which operated north of the City and in the suburbs such as Handsworth which was not yet incorporated into the city were also red/cream. A link of a Heritage Bus is given below.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ABn-ravPkHA/S5_80z1TfAI/AAAAAAAAAp8/C98r5YMAsuQ/s1600-h/26998.JPG

 

[Thylacine]

Re: My Question is Why Were The B.C.T. Trams Trolleys and Buses Painted Blue and Crea

Welcome to the BHF, Radiorails, and thanks for your interesting comments (and the lovely picture).

 

[Radiorails]

Re: My Question is Why Were The B.C.T. Trams Trolleys and Buses Painted Blue and Crea

Thank you Thylacine for your kind comments. This is the only UK Forum I presently visit: I am usually to be found on railroad places over the pond. There is another web site that I have not visited of late and that deals with the B1 postcode area. (well it was B1 a long time ago )