Skenyon
proper brummie kid
Thanks so much for the photos these are fantastic! I've found a few on here for various locations my ancestors have lived (or nearby) but I hadn't seen these.
-
Welcome to this forum . We are a worldwide group with a common interest in Birmingham and its history. While here, please follow a few simple rules. We ask that you respect other members, thank those who have helped you and please keep your contributions on-topic with the thread.
We do hope you enjoy your visit. BHF Admin Team
Houldcroft
- Thread starter Skenyon
- Start date
Skenyon
proper brummie kid
Thank you - I haven't seen this address for Mary before so that will definitely be helpful when I look into her more thoroughly
Skenyon
proper brummie kid
Thank you! I had thought having an unusual name like Houldcroft might make research much easier but you're right, there are so many inconsistencies with spelling it actually gets quite confusing!
My dad actually started the research off so I'm just finishing it for him but I'm really enjoying finding out what my family were doing/where they were living etc
MWS
from Bham
As Ada is with John Winfield (as Winfield) on the 1921 census and is still with him on the 1925 ER I think there's a strong possibility that John Winfield was his father.
hi skenyon...just to quote you here
"Ada married John Winfield on 09.09.1923. She had my grandfather John Joseph Houldcroft (known as Jack) on 27.01.1923 in the Hospital at 99 Dudley Road (she doesn't appear to have been an inmate at the workhouse as far as I can see). As far as the family are aware, John Winfield wasn't Jack's father"
although ada married john winfield some 8 months after your grandad john joseph was born does not automatically mean he was not jacks father although on the face of it it does look likely..will be interesting to see what it says on john josephs birth cert
my gt grandparents could not and have still not been found on the 1901 census either together or seperate..it was only when brum baptisms became available on ancestry that i checked them and found out that they had had 4 children before 1911...then i found their marriage cert for 1910....on the 1911 census they state that had been married for 10 years when in fact it had only been 1 a great deal of little white lies were told back in the day just to save face...so clearly they were living together in 1901 but could have either avoided being in when the emumerator came round to take their details or they could just have been missed off
lyn
"Ada married John Winfield on 09.09.1923. She had my grandfather John Joseph Houldcroft (known as Jack) on 27.01.1923 in the Hospital at 99 Dudley Road (she doesn't appear to have been an inmate at the workhouse as far as I can see). As far as the family are aware, John Winfield wasn't Jack's father"
although ada married john winfield some 8 months after your grandad john joseph was born does not automatically mean he was not jacks father although on the face of it it does look likely..will be interesting to see what it says on john josephs birth cert
my gt grandparents could not and have still not been found on the 1901 census either together or seperate..it was only when brum baptisms became available on ancestry that i checked them and found out that they had had 4 children before 1911...then i found their marriage cert for 1910....on the 1911 census they state that had been married for 10 years when in fact it had only been 1
a great deal of little white lies were told back in the day just to save face...so clearly they were living together in 1901 but could have either avoided being in when the emumerator came round to take their details or they could just have been missed offlyn
Skenyon
proper brummie kid
Wow! Yes definitely a lot of fibs being told back then.hi skenyon...just to quote you here
"Ada married John Winfield on 09.09.1923. She had my grandfather John Joseph Houldcroft (known as Jack) on 27.01.1923 in the Hospital at 99 Dudley Road (she doesn't appear to have been an inmate at the workhouse as far as I can see). As far as the family are aware, John Winfield wasn't Jack's father"
although ada married john winfield some 8 months after your grandad john joseph was born does not automatically mean he was not jacks father although on the face of it it does look likely..will be interesting to see what it says on john josephs birth cert
my gt grandparents could not and have still not been found on the 1901 census either together or seperate..it was only when brum baptisms became available on ancestry that i checked them and found out that they had had 4 children before 1911...then i found their marriage cert for 1910....on the 1911 census they state that had been married for 10 years when in fact it had only been 1
lyn
I feel like the fact that Ada married John Winfield so soon after Jack's birth perhaps gives even more weight to his not being the father, as she could have so easily just lied and told people (including Jack and other relatives) that John was his dad, unless it was already common knowledge that this wasn't the case.
Skenyon
proper brummie kid
Oh that's a very good point - I'd either not noticed or immediately forgotten that had been discovered!
Perhaps he was his father then but Jack was told otherwise for some reason? Or perhaps Jack just disliked him and convinced himself that John wasnt his real dad. Hopefully the birth certificate will arrive soon.
i agree jan ...that coupled with the child having the same first name..its likely that just because ada and john winfield married after the baby was born that family just thought he was not the childs father and we all know how easy family tales can stick.....hopefully the birth cert will reveal all...fingers crossed
lyn
this could be one of those mysteries that we can never solve...given the fact that john joseph was registered under the name of houldcroft with mothers name also houldcroft it is doubtful that there will be a fathers name on his birth cert which still does not prove one way or the other
just an aside which you have probably realised....joseph was the name of adas dad..still no luck finding ada on the 1911...i did look to see if maybe ada was living with john winfield but he is living in hospital st with his parents..5 siblings and 2 adopted children
lyn
lyn
Skenyon
proper brummie kid
Thank you for checking again that's most appreciated. Fingers crossed the birth certificate sheds some light but it's a good point re the surname being Houldcroft, my gut feeling is still that Winfield isn't the father despite his being on the scene beforehand but I suspect we'll never know for certain.
Perhaps they'd split up/Ada had an affair and although she stayed with John for a while after grandad's birth that sort of scenario might explain why Jack was recorded as a Houldcroft.
Skenyon
proper brummie kid
Oh yes, that's an interesting possibility.
MWS
from Bham
this could be one of those mysteries that we can never solve...given the fact that john joseph was registered under the name of houldcroft with mothers name also houldcroft it is doubtful that there will be a fathers name on his birth cert which still does not prove one way or the other
DNA testing could prove John Winfield was his father or at least disapprove it.
If there are direct male line descendants of John Joseph then their Y chromosome will be the same as any direct male Winfield descendant of John's brother, uncles, great uncles etc.
However as far as I can see, despite having 3 brothers and 7 uncles they don't appear to have any male line descendants still living. Normal dna testing could still help though.
Coincidently the last surviving (as far as I can tell) lived on Hospital St until 2006.
Skenyon
proper brummie kid
That's a very interesting idea, dad's eldest brother (John Joseph's first son) has taken a dna test so I'll ask him to check for matches with any Winfields
I've also done a dna test but I can't find anyone with Winfields in their tree in my matches (but not everyone has publicly listed trees so they may still exist)
Skenyon
proper brummie kid
Skenyon
proper brummie kid
Finally received Jack's birth certificate - sadly the father's name/occupation is empty.
I did find some interesting info on John Winfield in the British newspaper archives though - he provided an alibi at the trial of a friend who was accused of shooting an 8-year-old child in the face with an air gun. :-/
His friend was apparently a known gang member (Cecil Street) and was eventually found guilty and sentenced to 20 months imprisonment.
I did find some interesting info on John Winfield in the British newspaper archives though - he provided an alibi at the trial of a friend who was accused of shooting an 8-year-old child in the face with an air gun. :-/
His friend was apparently a known gang member (Cecil Street) and was eventually found guilty and sentenced to 20 months imprisonment.
Attachments
Skenyon
proper brummie kid
In case anyone is interested in our latest discoveries, my sister was contacted by a distant relative who has discovered that we have a DNA connection to her via the Winfields! This would strongly suggest that John Winfield was indeed Jack's father (or perhaps another Winfield was). Although it doesn't answer many of the questions we have like why Jack didn't know who his dad was and why John isn't on the birth certificate.
In doing some research on the Winfield's, I've also discovered that John W's mum is descended from the Marklew family and her great something grandfather was Charles Marklew, the uncle of Edward Oxford, who was infamous for being the first person to attempt to assassinate Queen Victoria. I've found some helpful information on this forum about that side of the family - all very interesting and most unexpected!
In doing some research on the Winfield's, I've also discovered that John W's mum is descended from the Marklew family and her great something grandfather was Charles Marklew, the uncle of Edward Oxford, who was infamous for being the first person to attempt to assassinate Queen Victoria. I've found some helpful information on this forum about that side of the family - all very interesting and most unexpected!
