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Greenfield Alfred - 'Oxford & Cambridge' Inn

Lady Penelope

Lady Penelope

master brummie
Mikejee I just wondered if anyone has heard of the 'Oxford & Cambridge' Inn at 33 Digbeth please? I've been looking for boxing venues in this area and this is the first one I've actually come across (1891) which mentions 'pugilist'. Any help to nudge me in the right direction would be most welcome. Thanks.

Note: Posts moved at suggestion of Mikejee.

Mike let me know if these now need moving to a different section?
Lady P can you let me know if the title needs changing please? Never put off a new post for fear of duplication or putting it into the wrong place as one of us will willingly move it.



BernardR
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Re: Pubs and Inns of Bull Ring and Market areas from 1940s

Lady Penelope.
It is possible that the pugilistic connection would date from December 1890 , for, as can be seen from this extract from the Birm. Daily Post of the 5th December, the new landlords application was originally objected to as he was a "boxing man"

Birm_D_P_5_12_1890.jpg
 
Re: Pubs and Inns of Bull Ring and Market areas from 1940s

It looks like the pub was more usually known as the Three Tuns. Other mentions of Alfred their are below:

B_Daily_post_23_10_1890.jpg



Birm_daily_post_13_6_1891.jpg


Birm_daily_post_17_9_1891.jpg


birm_daily_post_19_11_1891.jpg
 
Re: Pubs and Inns of Bull Ring and Market areas from 1940s

However it seems Alfred went mad or so the brewery or his wife said:

birm_daiy_post_23_11_1893_sale_of_three_tuns.jpg
 
Re: Pubs and Inns of Bull Ring and Market areas from 1940s

Thanks Mikejee - it was just like Christmas when I logged on this morning!

I'm always a bit worried about starting new threads in case there's already one going. I will now have a look for The Three Tuns.

I'm looking at boxers from the last Qtr of the 1800's and Birmingham venues. As it was a sport that was frowned upon at the time it's like swimming through treacle sometimes. Thanks again.
 
Glad you found information useful.
Further to my earlier post, Alfred had an earlier incarnation at the Swan with two necks, as stated in the earlier clipping. the statement in his application that there had never been any trouble was perhaps slightly over-positive, as he had been fined for being drunk in another pub. It is interesting that when the Swan with two necks was neing advertised after he left, it is blazoned accross the advert that there was a well equipped boxing saloon. Yet ikt was his connection with boxing that was used to object to him getting the licence of the three tuns/Oxford & Cambridge. You will probably find interesting in his licence application of 1886, where several other pubs connected to boxing also suffered objections.

Birm_daily_post_26_8_1886.jpg


birm_daily_post_16_10_1890.jpg


Birm_daily_post_13_12_1888.jpg
 
Just a few more cuttings about Alfred to fill in the picture, though not about his pubs:

birm_daily_post_9_6_1887.jpg


birm_daily_post_10_10_1887.jpg


birm_daily_post_28_10_1884.jpg
 
I'm really overwhelmed by everyone's help. Thank you all so much.
I noticed that Billy Plimmer, another boxer had the pub (whatever it's name was at the time) 1896-1897.
I went to Colindale Newspaper Library a couple of times and read as many Midland Sporting News copies as I could. It was a weekly paper, broadsheet, bound in years. The library has now moved to Boston Spa and they only seem to have a few microfilm copies available, I've written to them to ask if the others are still there. The problem was that at the time I was only looking for a specific boxer and afterwards I got hooked on the history of the sport and the venues in Birmingham as much as the boxer I was researching.

BernardR - I'm sure that the title is fine thanks and I will bear in mind what you say about new threads. Great!
 
Hi Penny. Thanks to this forum we have discovered ashared kinship (Joe Woolley and Charley Norton) as well as an interest in Pubs,Boxing, Birmingham, the Bowery (NYC) and beyond. As you know, I have beenresearching my great great grandfather Charley Norton (b. Birmingham 1852, d.Newark, N.J. USA 1899) for years.
FYI for all: thefollowing link will take you to a huge database of New York Newspapers thatmight be of interest to anyone researching their ancestors who may haveemigrated from Birmingham to the states: https://www.fultonhistory.com/Fulton.html. Alf Greenfield is mentioned many times in the National Police Gazettepublication as well as Billy Plimmer and Charlie Mitchell--famous boxing Brummies. The following link from theFulton site is a profile of Charley Norton and his B'ham background inboxing: https://fultonhistory.com/newspaper%209/New%20York%20NY%20National%20Police%20Gazette%201844-1906/New%20York%20NY%20National%20Police%20Gazette%201880-1881%20Grayscale/New%20York%20NY%20National%20Police%20Gazette%201880-1881%20Grayscale%20-%200862.pdf.

 
Hi MaryEllen, that's great! I wonder if anyone has any information on Charley Norton before he left Birmingham. I suspect he may have appeared in some of the local papers but unsure where to start looking apart from the Midland Sporting News which is only available at the Newspaper Library. I still haven't had any luck with pictures of Moorsom Street in the 1800's. It would've been fairly new when they lived there as Mikjee told me that only one half of the road was developed. The cuttings that Mike posted have given me some more leads which I'm following and as you say 'Thanks to the Forum'.
 
Re : charley morton. It might be worth looking at the evening dispatch. The newspaper archives give a couple of brief mentions by people who remember meetings he was at , but the online archives
only go back to 1914 and the cuttings give no other information. however the first issue that is online is Jan 2nd 1914 and this is no 3709, so earlier editions might be worth looking at.
 
Thanks Mikejee, the problem is that boxing was very non-PC at the time we're looking at and even the Midland Sporting News describes 'exhibitions' and 'assaults at arms' rather than pugilism. I will have a look at the Dispatch however, as you suggest, in the hope that something will come up. Lets hope they've got a search facility now as going through those old microfiches sent me cross-eyed last time! Does it mention a venue in the bits in the post 1914 archives?
Charley Norton emigrated in 1879 and died in 1899 possibly from the result of working in the pearl button industry.
 
Thanks Mikejee, lots of info there, in fact the first one mentions Joe Wooley who is the one that started my search, he was my gt uncle. My cousin asked me if I knew what happened to 'Our Joe' the boxer who went to America with the Birmingham Boxers. I didn't - but can't resist a challenge! I've had a response from the newspaper library too this morning and the original Midland Sporting News copies will soon be available. Just got to work out when to get up to Boston Spa or down to St Pancras. Nothing is easy is it?
 
to all on this thread
im a new member so not sure how this works. im looking to try and find a photo of Jack Costello, Birmingham middleweight who fought for the
British title in about 1908.
I do have photos of Len (Tiger) Smith who i believe someone was looking for and Alf Greenfield and Im pretty sure I have one of Charley Norton too
if any help
 
David, I would very much like to know about the picture you have of Charley Norton. I have a few myself from the internet and a candid one recently purchased on Ebay. Charley Norton is my great great grandfather. Many thanks, Mary Ellen, St. Louis, USA.
 
Hello Mary Ellen
Im afraid I cant tell you anything about my photo of Charley Norton. I have been collecting photos of boxers for 50 years now and have obtained them from all sorts of sources over the years. I have thousands of different boxers. The photo is in fighting stance from the waist up and he is sporting a fine moustache as was the fashion of the time.
I know he was born in or around Birmingham and went to America in the late 1870's either to find a better life or to perhaps negotiate a World title fight.
Other than that I cant tell you any more than you will find on the boxing sites on the internet... boxrec or the cyber boxing zone. with good wishes, David
 
Hi David,
I'm pretty sure we are talking about the picture of Charlie on CBZ. I was hoping for a rare find from you. There is a free database of historical New York newspapers at www.fultonhistory.com. Perhaps you already know about it, but I have found over 145 articles in which Charley is featured or mentioned as a fighter, fight promoter, trainer or saloon proprietor. You would definitely find something on the other Birmingham boxers of that era who left B'ham to advance their careers in boxing--Charley Mitchell, Billy Plimmer etc. Thanks for responding. Mary Ellen
 
Hi Mary Ellen,
ive had a look and my photo of Charley Norton is a copy of the same one as on CBZ. Im sorry i couldnt come up with a rare find for you.
i do know about the fulton history site and have been on it a couple of times but need to persevere a bit more to really understand how to get the best out of it
but i do have photos of most British boxers who emigrated to the US at that time including Charley Mitchell and Billy Plimmer.
I wish you luck with your further research. with best wishes, david
 
Hi David,

I see that Mary Ellen has already responded to your post. Mary Ellen's great great grandfather was my great uncle's brother in law (how's that for a tenuous link!). However, we've become good friends through this shared interest. My gt uncle's name was Joe Woolley and I began to research him after a chance remark by my cousin. At Carl Chinn's suggestion I contacted Tony Gee, the Boxing Historian and he suggested that I look at copies of The Midland Sporting News. Unfortunately there aren't any photos at the time I'm looking at. The US is much better at pictures. I did get my first clue from the MSN though and it's lead to really good things. Might be worth a look if you're ever in the area. The originals were housed at Colindale Newspaper Library in London but have now been re-located to Boston Spa, near Wetherby in Yorks. I'm hoping to go at some point. They will send copies down to London by request but this takes some time. I shall be looking at the last Qtr of the 1800's when I go and will look out for your man.
 
hi there lady penelope
i thought i had sent this message earlier today but either i didnt press the send button or its got lost in the ether
thank you for your message. i have to confess that despite collecting boxers photos for 50 years ive barely heard of joe woolley. i will have a look through all
my stuff and see if i can find anything
sadly for me, i live about a mile away from colindale and now ive retired and got more time they have moved the newspaper library. i did go a few times each year but not as much as i would have liked.
i will try to get there again to have a look at the midland sporting news and as the man im looking for didnt start boxing until about 1904 there may be more pictures available then
im glad you have found boxing history interesting. its not everyones cup of tea but there are so many fascinating/funny/tragic stories associated with the noble art.
i do have a non profit making website i started to showcase my photos and to keep me out of the pub in my retirement. its www.fightersfotos.co.uk if you woulod care to have a look, with best wishes, david
 
Hi David

We found Colindale a bit hard to get to as we were in the camper van and all the sites were a long way off from there. I found the place fascinating if a little hard going with the original newspapers. I made the mistake of wearing a white jumper and came out black!

I have a drawing of Joe if you'd like it and a write up from the Fulton site. You can either send me a private message or I can upload them (or at least I'll try) through your website. I had a quick look the other day and will check it out more thoroughly when time permits. Really interesting and a quick look showed me lots of names I'm familiar with. Looking forward to browsing soon.
 
david roake said:
to all on this thread
im a new member so not sure how this works. im looking to try and find a photo of Jack Costello, Birmingham middleweight who fought for the
British title in about 1908.
I do have photos of Len (Tiger) Smith who i believe someone was looking for and Alf Greenfield and Im pretty sure I have one of Charley Norton too
if any help
Click to expand...
I’d be v interested in seeing the photo of Alf. I’m his great grandson .
 
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