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Birmingham's Image And Status

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I never go into the city now, apart from our odd meet and driving through the under pass and Bristol Rd on the way to West Heath to see my daughter, I find it so depressing , glass and concrete slowly taking over from all the beautiful buildings demolished, very sad. Eric
 
Eric,

That's the reason so many people want to live in rural areas, driving up prices of houses for the locals. We were asking the same question as you, "When will is all end?", way back in 1960, and were not very hopeful then! With the population continuing to expand, I am even less hopeful now. 58 years on! I'm just wondering if they asked the same questions in Victorian times. :)

Maurice
 
You iknow it must be me, but even though a lot of "my Birmingham" has gone from the '70's and'80's, I'm genuinely excited about the new development that is going on.

Yes I miss the Bull Ring, Midland Red Bus Station (although it was drafty and smelly!) and even round by the library, but I think once complete Birmingham is going to look fantastic. A lovely job has been done in the conservation areas like Colmore Row and round by the art gallery, its been that well done, film and tv companies use it as a filming location.

I appreciate that at 51 I do not remember back as far as some of you, and I do love coming here and reading the posts many of you make, I guess having seen Brum changing 3 or 4 times in a lifetime must be very strange, but why is it when the planners try to undo the mistakes that were made, there is constant criticism?
 
hi brummygirl ...of course we must have change and progress i think we all acknowledge that but are planners really learning from past mistakes...the new library for instance has already had some problems since it opened.. but my beef has always been about how many historical and wonderful buildings the city has lost to progress...buildings that would have continued to stand the test of time..buildings that can never be replaced....therefore we are slowly losing our true history

going back to progress...for the elderly folk it is now difficult to get around the city centre as its just one big construction site now and no sign of any let up...i started this new metro site thread nearly 7 years ago and work is still on going...next will come work all the work around digbeth and then of course work on HS2 will start which will go on for years so to be honest i cant see an end to it for many years to come...shame really as it would be nice to walk around the city centre without a construction site staring you in the face...i often wonder what the tourists think..from what i see of how the city centre is shaping up (and i only go now when i have to) it is geared up more for the youngsters not the elderly and not much thought has been given to them and the difficulties they face getting around

i shall get off my soap box now....happy new year

lyn
 
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Brummygirl #801, I think the older you are the more dismayed you are by the constant never ending upheavals and changes to our city, I am 87 and saddened by the beautiful buildings demolished to be replaced by glass and concrete soulless abominations. Other cities, particularly European preserve and restore their historic buildings for the benefit of their citizens, but not Birmingham, I sometimes think it is one big ego trip for the Councillers. When I think of the Bullring and Market Hall, the original Library - I could go on, its all so sad. Rant over. Eric
 
Eric, so many Brummies of all ages are disappointed generally in what has happened in this regard to their city especially as these days people travel to other places where their buildings have been restored and look amazing. OK the building in Brum were blackened, etc for years but the ones cleaned up are totally amazing.
 
Personally I love the way the city is looking, like the tram system, pedestrianisation, nice new shopping areas like the Bull ring and Grand Central. If you look around, you will still see lots of lovely old buildings still about. Take the Council House for instance, it's one of the finest in the country. I know Brum is not perfect but what city is? As Eric says Rant over.
 
I wonder if people made the same comments when Chamberlain knocked down all those lovely "tudor" buildings to build Corporation St?

The thing people need to remember is that a city like Birmingham needs to compete on the world stage with other major cities to attract businesses and people to come and work here.

A city cannot survive unless it has companies and people working in it, paying taxes and so on.

One of the new buildings being built (opposite the new library) is for the bank HSBC UK who are moving their UK headquarters from London to Birmingham. What a great coup for Birmingham that is, but do people think they would have moved here if they had not got a bright new office block to move in to.

Next to the HSBC building a new office block will be built to be occupied by HMRC (HM Revenue and Customs). They will move a number of people from London (and other places) to centralise them all in Birmingham. Another coup for Birmingham.

Also one of the new buildings being built on the site of the OLD library (ONE Chamberlain Square) is being taken over by accountants PWC (Price, Waterhouse, Coopers) a huge worldwide company. I accept that most of the people who will work there already work in Birmingham, but they also expect to create 1,000 new jobs to fill the whole office block. More great news for the city.

Other developments such as Brindley Place and Snow Hill have also brought companies to Birmingham.

THAT is the future of Birmingham.

I moved to Birmingham from London about 35 years ago (my company moved my department here, on the Hagley Road).

At that time the city was a DUMP and was dying (my work colleagues in London said I was mad to come and work in Birmingham). I don't think people realise what a terrible image Birmingham had from other places in the UK.

We had the factories closing all over the city, the Handsworth Riots, the strikes at British Leyland, a dump of a Bull Ring, a dump of a New St station, lots of horrible smelly underpassess all over the city, and a reputation as a "concrete city".

Sadly, even with all the work still going on in the city to improve it (BullRing, New St station, Brindley Place etc), the city STILL has a bad reputation.

When they announced the 2022 Commonwealth Games in Birmingham a few weeks ago you should have seen some of the negative comments on various newspaper web sites. This city is STILL fighting for its future.

Lets face it, many large companies can put their headquarters anywhere in the world nowadays, so there has to be a good reason for them to choose Birmingham.

And one thing that will bring them here is bright, modern office blocks and hotels.

And the city is gradually getting more and more of them.

Yes parts of the city are a huge building site (and when the Wholesale Market moves out of the city THAT area will become a building site) but in the long term things like that will save the city.

If it was no done the city would die.
 
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I wonder if people made the same comments when Chamberlain knocked down all those lovely "tudor" buildings to build Corporation St?

The thing people need to remember is that a city like Birmingham needs to compete on the world stage with other major cities to attract businesses and people to come and work here.

A city cannot survive unless it has companies and people working in it, paying taxes and so on.

One of the new buildings being built (opposite the new library) is for the bank HSBC UK who are moving their UK headquarters from London to Birmingham. What a great coup for Birmingham that is, but do people think they would have moved here if they had not got a bright new office block to move in to.

Next to the HSBC building a new office block will be built to be occupied by HMRC (HM Revenue and Customs). They will move a number of people from London (and other places) to centralise them all in Birmingham. Another coup for Birmingham.

Also one of the new buildings being built on the site of the OLD library (ONE Chamberlain Square) is being taken over by accountants PWC (Price, Waterhouse, Coopers) a huge worldwide company. I accept that most of the people who will work there already work in Birmingham, but they also expect to create 1,000 new jobs to fill the whole office block. More great news for the city.

Other developments such as Brindley Place and Snow Hill have also brought companies to Birmingham.

THAT is the future of Birmingham.

I moved to Birmingham from London about 35 years ago (my company moved my department here, on the Hagley Road).

At that time the city was a DUMP and was dying (my work colleagues in London said I was mad to come and work in Birmingham). I don't think people realise what a terrible image Birmingham had from other places in the UK.

We had the factories closing all over the city, the Handsworth Riots, the strikes at British Leyland, a dump of a Bull Ring, a dump of a New St station, lots of horrible smelly underpassess all over the city, and a reputation as a "concrete city".

Sadly, even with all the work still going on in the city to improve it (BullRing, New St station, Brindley Place etc), the city STILL has a bad reputation.

When they announced the 2022 Commonwealth Games in Birmingham a few weeks ago you should have seen some of the negative comments on various newspaper web sites. This city is STILL fighting for its future.

Lets face it, many large companies can put their headquarters anywhere in the world nowadays, so there has to be a good reason for them to choose Birmingham.

And one thing that will bring them here is bright, modern office blocks and hotels.

And the city is gradually getting more and more of them.

Yes parts of the city are a huge building site (and when the Wholesale Market moves out of the city THAT area will become a building site) but in the long term things like that will save the city.

If it was no done the city would die.
The other thing to remember is that handsome/attractive etc as old buildings look they are often not fit for purpose in this age. An old building in its handsome red brick, with gargoyles and patterned brickwork, windows that have some special features etc which has housed an old business was probably breaking countless factories and offices acts by the very virtue of its interior. An old fashioned heating system where the pipes are lagged with asbestos, an inefficient lift, toilets that were fine 1890 or 1920, but have no place in the modern eco friendly world. And the worst sin of all, are not disabled friendly, all steps no ramps, narrow doorways tight corridors. I despair when I see fine old buildings being demolished, architectural masterpieces being destroyed (sometimes architectural salvagers will save any outstanding features if they can), but trying to update and relet the premises means initial costly refurbishment and then the problem that because the building was built in the horse and carriage age, there is a problem with parking for staff and visitors. Okay if there is an efficient public transport system to bring the workers in from outlying areas then the car should not be used, (Birmingham, London, Manchester and other big cities are lucky) but in many other places the public transport services are often skeletal and not efficient or convenient. My solicitor has his office in a fine old Georgian building on the waterfront in Bideford. No wheelchair access, steps from outside up to reception, no lift, just a beautiful staircase up to the main partners office and no provision downstairs for private conversation and no disabled toilet. When I had my broken leg and discovered the disadvantages of being wheelchair confined, this was just one of many problems I discovered. The other major point to mention is that the beautiful 19th century building that has served its purpose well for 100plus years does not have the space that can be created by putting in a modern 21st century building and therefore is not an economically viable proposition for profitable (and that unfortunately is the only word that accountants recognise nowadays) reletting etc. Working in the construction business with developers etc, I have visited many an old building and we have had to realise that it has no future as a development project because it is too costly to modernise and their would be limitations on who would want to rent/lease/use it. Even the big Accountancy and Solicitors Partenerships are now moving to business parks on the outskirts of towns. What Guilbert 53 is right, suddenly Birmingham has become the new destination for corporate HQs and they need the buildings to promote their images. Interestingly I have seen no pleading for the preservation of the 1950/60s concrete monstrosities of which a great many are now being demolished because after the few years they have been up they ar no longer fit for purpose, not because of not meeting current legislation, nor for being ugly but often because they contain inherent design and construction faults and let us at least praise modern architects for making buildings look more interesting, cleaner and certainly more user friendly even if we older and more knowledgeable people think they are ugly or strange. Here I am thinking Selfridges and the New Library, outside...strange/odd/unusual. Inside....warm, accessible and user friendly.

In conclusion, I hate to see the destruction of architecturally exciting older buildings and am disappointed that when I come home how much has gone, but some of the replacements are well worth a second look and if they give back to Birmingham its old second city status, then so beit.

Bob
 
Bob
You are not quite correct in saying that no-one has tried to keep ugly 1960s/70s buildings. There were some who, for some peculiar reason tried to preserve the library that has just been demolished.
 
Mike, pity they did not preserve the original one and modernise the interior. To me the biggest piece of vandalism was demolishing the old Market Hall (even the Luftwaffe only damaged the roof !) That made the Bull Ring unique, now its just another shopping centre like any other town or city. Eric
 
Bob
You are not quite correct in saying that no-one has tried to keep ugly 1960s/70s buildings. There were some who, for some peculiar reason tried to preserve the library that has just been demolished.
I did not realise that, do you know why? It could be like the 60s Civic Centre in Barnstaple, ready to be emptied and disposed of and somebody got a preservation order on it, now I believe its going to be turned into flats (I may be wrong there, that was something that passed through the grapevine)
Bob
 
I did not realise that, do you know why? Bob

Some people tried to save the old Birmingham library because they felt is was a fine example of Brutalist architecture (particularly the upside down "ziggurat" - the main library building).

Now I was in favour of the old library being demolished, but lets think for a moment.

We critisize the 60s and 70s planners for knocking down Victorian buildings at the time. But at the time they were dirty and represented the previous "era" so they wanted them gone.

Nowadays we feel the same about Brutalist architecture, it represents the previous "era" and we want it gone.

But in 50 years time, when there are no Brutalist buildings left, will people THEN critisize US for knocking those Brutalist buildings down, in the way WE critisize others in the 60s and 70s for knocking down Victorian architecture.

In Navigation St in Birmingham there is the old signal box, built in 1965. I think it is hideous and would love to get rid of it. But it is a listed building (and still being used) so it wont be demolished.

But that is an example of why we should keep SOME Brutalist buildings.

Note Trellick Tower in London, a hideous high rise tower block, designed by Erno Goldfinger, is also grade 2 listed for the same reason.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trellick_Tower

p.s. I love the saying "Architects LOVE what their Grandfather built but hate what their Father built". That sums it up I guess.
 
Guilbert
I agree about the signal box. I understand some might like to keep brutalist architecture, but there is still lots of it (too much for my taste ) about. The National theatre & University of East anglia are two fine examples. the library building was just a short of copy of the university buildings, and therefore would be no great loss
 
i take on board that some people love the new buildings that are being built now there are one or two that i quite like myself and i also agree that we must move on..but was it absolutely necessary to rid the city of some of its most splendid architecture... of course its a matter of taste on what we think is great architecture and we all have and are entitled to our opinion but i stand by what i have always said....these modern buildings will never stand the test of time and will never become historical buildings....for instance josiah mason college was demolished and on its ground was built the 1974 library...now why on earth rid us of what was a magnificent building and build the library which was demolished 43 years after it opened??maybe i could ask members to vote on which of these 2 buildings they think is more pleasing on the eye and would make tourists look up at in wonder and marvel at the wonderful architecture and which one of them would not be given a second glance... surely not many can condone the destruction of the college and put a good reason forward and lets face it a 5 year old could have designed the 74 library .. it just does not make sense to me but maybe i am in the minority..

lyn

library opened 1974.jpeg josiah mason college.jpeg
 
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i take on board that some people love the new buildings that are being built now there are one or two that i quite like myself and i also agree that we must move on..but was it absolutely necessary to rid the city of some of its most splendid architecture... of course its a matter of taste on what we think is great architecture and we all have and are entitled to our opinion but i stand by what i have always said....these modern buildings will never stand the test of time and will never become historical buildings....for instance josiah mason college was demolished and on its ground was built the 1974 library...now why on earth rid us of what was a magnificent building and build the library which was demolished 43 years after it opened??maybe i could ask members to vote on which of these 2 buildings they think is more pleasing on the eye and would make tourists look up at in wonder and marvel at the wonderful architecture and which one of them would not be given a second glance... surely not many can condone the destruction of the college and put a good reason forward and lets face it a 5 year old could have designed the 74 library .. it just does not make sense to me but maybe i am in the minority..

lyn

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Ok so you have just put the 'are you still beating your wife's or that dreaded moment in the department store when she turns to you, smiles slightly and says'which of these two dresses do you like best?' There is a whole comedy routine there but seriously can I suggest we move this to a new thread, so we don't detract from the metro work begins theme and I will answer your question. I like both of them the older building because it was built by hand, each brick lovingly laid, each Cornice and outer decoration, designed to represent the mood of the day, manufactured probably by hand by an underpaid craftsman and the architect, the client and the town burghers, ecstatic with praise and joy for such a fine piece of work.....a piece of art, tactile, visual radiating excellence of design, construction and manual ability to create. The library, it makes you look, brutalist? yes, pretty? No! But a work of its time. Remember, like a set of company accounts a building is a snapshot of design at a specific time. Drive out from any City/town centre...there were the workers terraced houses, then the bigger residences built by the succeßful business men, these later became flats, offices etc and the business men moved nearer or beyond the boundary and in the thirties the villages that had bee absorbed and new shops with accomodation above were built for the new estates built to replace the terrace houses close to the centre and so the whole pattern of habitation develops and changes. I like them both, but for different reasons, however if I had to save one, it would be the one that radiated Art and Craft and man's ability to create those things, not the concrete monstrosity that became boring because it only represented what man could make the machine create.

Bob
 
hi bob will get off topic posts moved over the weekend...apologies from me for being one of the offenders but i just cant help myself when it comes to defending our lost buildings:D

lyn
 
i take on board that some people love the new buildings that are being built now there are one or two that i quite like myself and i also agree that we must move on..but was it absolutely necessary to rid the city of some of its most splendid architecture... of course its a matter of taste on what we think is great architecture and we all have and are entitled to our opinion but i stand by what i have always said....these modern buildings will never stand the test of time and will never become historical buildings....for instance josiah mason college was demolished and on its ground was built the 1974 library...now why on earth rid us of what was a magnificent building and build the library which was demolished 43 years after it opened??maybe i could ask members to vote on which of these 2 buildings they think is more pleasing on the eye and would make tourists look up at in wonder and marvel at the wonderful architecture and which one of them would not be given a second glance... surely not many can condone the destruction of the college and put a good reason forward and lets face it a 5 year old could have designed the 74 library .. it just does not make sense to me but maybe i am in the minority..

lyn

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Wow, I certainly didn't mean to open such a can of worms with my post, but feel that I do have answer and try and explain my point of view.

I look at the two pictures and I like the Victorian one very much, I wish it had not been demolished, but as others have said, at the time the planners rightly or wrongly thought they were building a new Birmingham, one that would last for decades, sadly as we know it didn't and many of the "worst" 1960's buildings have gone, both within the city centre and on the areas surrounding the city centre. I look at old photographs and shake my head that so much was lost, but it did happen in other cities, not just Birmingham and as others have said, we had a dreadful reputation 35 years ago as the concrete city, a lot of the really bad examples have gone.

I admit to a pang of sadness when the library was demolished, it, like the Bull Ring and New Street station were the only ones I "knew", so for me personally I was sad about that, I admit it. It felt like part of my teenage years had gone, but I can at the same time appreciate the buildings that have been restored.

I shouldn't really have commented here, so my apologies for that and a belated Happy New Year to you Lyn and all other members of the forum.
 
As I have already said, the views of older Brummies, particularly those who remember the old Bull Ring complete with the Market Hall, as I do, will have completely different views to younger Brummies, and people from outside. I am all for progress, as long as it does not destroy the heart of the City, which in my personal opinion it as, can you imagine, for example, Liverpool demolishing the Liver Building in the name of progress ? I'll not make any further comments for I find it all so sad. Eric
 
I am sure many will appreciate your posts Brummygirl66, even if they don't always agree with what you write, after all this is a great place for historical information and viewpoints. Sometimes it is not always clear where your post should be located but we do have Mods who will move things around. - well, we do need to keep them on their toes. :D
I doubt if there are many places that have not suffered from ''modernization' in one form or another. Dartmouth and Totnes (in my neck of the woods) have managed to avoid excesses.
Keep looking in and giving your opinion and enjoying - maybe contributing - to the interesting threads here.
 
Wow, I certainly didn't mean to open such a can of worms with my post, but feel that I do have answer and try and explain my point of view.

I look at the two pictures and I like the Victorian one very much, I wish it had not been demolished, but as others have said, at the time the planners rightly or wrongly thought they were building a new Birmingham, one that would last for decades, sadly as we know it didn't and many of the "worst" 1960's buildings have gone, both within the city centre and on the areas surrounding the city centre. I look at old photographs and shake my head that so much was lost, but it did happen in other cities, not just Birmingham and as others have said, we had a dreadful reputation 35 years ago as the concrete city, a lot of the really bad examples have gone.

I admit to a pang of sadness when the library was demolished, it, like the Bull Ring and New Street station were the only ones I "knew", so for me personally I was sad about that, I admit it. It felt like part of my teenage years had gone, but I can at the same time appreciate the buildings that have been restored.

I shouldn't really have commented here, so my apologies for that and a belated Happy New Year to you Lyn and all other members of the forum.

Hey Brummygirl66, apologies not needed or required, this is a history site, we are discussing things past. It is right to open up for discussion past events and opinions of others and not be automatically accepting of them.


There is and never will be one authorised official version of the past, because that would be the most boring thing on the planet, and not true. We have to discuss it, we have to challenge it, we have to sometimes go out of our comfort zone. But we don’t fall out about it.


I have lived and worked in Birmingham all my life, I love the place. I was there as the little boy with my mom in the town watching the changes. Birmingham was an industrial town, and also the second most bombed city in the UK. People needed a fresh start after the war. It was promised, deserved and ultimately delivered.


Even in the very early 60’s I recall the town as looking well past its sell by date, gridlocked with traffic and not being quite the showcase, a city should be. There seemed to be a forward-looking hope that a newer modern city centre would deliver a better standard of living for all. Not many people complained at the time, when the old building were being demolished. Some were glad to see them go, bringing them nearer to achieving their forward-looking hope.


I am ok with the second library, as I am sad at the loss of the old. I certainly did not subscribe to Prince Charles’ view that it was a carbuncle, as place where books are burnt. The design was part of a mass consultation, and winner of a competition and not an arbitrary ideology that some allude too.


It was designed around functionality, which to me as a young person was like a dream. Study booths, ample desk space and toilets. It presented an opportunity to excel. It was also of its time, as is the new library.


In hindsight, things could have been done better, I too mourn the loss the old city. But we cannot go forward mourning the loss of a golden era that never really existed, or can we save every heritage building. I know this from experience.


One final point. I welcome frank and open discussion. I welcome exploring new ideas about the past. I welcome challenging the established thoughts and opinions. But please don’t call my home town a dump. I love Birmingham and I choose to live here. My home has its problems, but it is not a dump. But we are not going to fall out about it, are we.
 
hi folk can we now use this new thread to chew the cud over ongoing and upcoming changes to our city....if you like what is happening or dislike the changes this is the place to voice your opinions.

lyn
 
I think it is safe to say it will never be finished, certainly not in my life time, I think they are trying to create a little New York, modern and soulless, it has lost it's heart and uniqueness, just one huge shopping centre just like any other town/city, I guess that is the way the country is going and there is little or nothing we can do about it. I was born to early, for I can remember it as it was 60 or 70 years ago far from perfect I agree but it was the city I grew up in and loved. Incidentally we had a far superior tramway system, uncomfortable maybe and cold in the winter but it covered the whole city and beyond, cheap, frequent and reliable. I would like to see more trees, greenery and places to relax, we are not all young amazons !! Eric
 
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totally agree with you eric...a bit more greenery to try and brighten up the drab and dull city it is fast becoming would not come a miss..thing is they are getting rid of trees these days...

lyn
 
Interesting that you say more trees and greenery. I cannot remember where I read this but, apparently Birmingham has the most parks or public space in England.
St-Agnes-Road-Church-Tower.jpg
Most certainly when you get up high, you can see how many three we have, thousands of them. I was up the tower of St Agnes Church recently, and you can see a continuous swath of trees.
 
hi mort i also read about birmingham having the most parks and i agree we have some wonderful parks but like eric i meant that a little more greenery in the city centre would be nice just to brighten it up a bit...

lyn
 
My father n law came from Devon/Cornwall and whenever he came to see us in Birmingham, he always expressed surprise at how many trees and parks there were. My childhood memories are of the many parks in the City, must suburbs had at least one as far as I remember, certainly the outer suburbs, I don't know about the inner city area. How many still exist?

Bob
 
Sadly, more and more greenery is having to be cut down because of barriers having to be put in many of the central shopping areas after the tragic events in London and Manchester last year.
 
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