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Beggars Bush

Lady Penelope

master brummie
Here's the map I mentioned in Post #25. It's obviously just a sketch and not to scale but interesting all the same. Although it's difficult to read, Beggars Bush is about where Green Lanes comes onto Birmingham Road. Perhaps it's a general thing and travellers met at junctions of busy road by a 'bush'.
Lyn, I'm sure I read that Jordan was murdered and buried on the boundary of the parish but not sure who he actually was.
 

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Lady Penelope

master brummie
Going back to the Staffs/Warks boundary query. I read yesterday that the bush marked the boundary between 'Erdington and Perry'. Many years ago Perry Barr was part of Handsworth which was then in Staffordshire.
 

Lady Penelope

master brummie
Pedrocut, I'm really puzzled by this information from Midlands Pubs. I think we'll find that there were many such places in years gone by. Just another one to add to my list of 'must find outs'. I also spotted a Dance Hall (?) on the map - that's certainly something to think about!
 
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Lady Penelope

master brummie
Pedrocut, I've had time to look at the map now and the Beggars Bush in 1823 is actually facing Penns Lane, not as my map (which is not to scale) suggested, further up towards Wylde Green Road. The road just a little further up from the BB is Little Green Lanes and Green Lanes itself continues to the main road. My map is definitely pre-1801 as Goosemoore Lane is shown and that carried straight on to Chester Road. After that date it turned left and joined Court Lane.

The buildings look to be about where the oldest buildings in this shopping area are. There used to be a very old bookshop where the Irish Bank is now and next to that was an off-licence, also a very old building. This has now been replaced by a bookies. I worked at the top of Penns Lane in the late 1960's and I'm trying to picture these buildings. Perhaps someone has a photo?

As far as the 'dance hall' is concerned, it seems to be opposite the end of Grange Road, not quite in Pype Hayes park - very interesting!

I think the Mr Cotterell referred to in your post #21 lived at Broadfields House. This was a very large property and I've failed to find anything out about it. No pictures exist although I believe it was there until the trams arrived definitely until the parade of shops now there was built, around the turn of the 20th century, together with Broadfields Road.

Just as an aside, I visited Warwick Record Office yesterday and looked at an original enclosure map. It was made of vellum so very stiff and hard to handle. When unrolled it covered 4 large tables pushed together.

I'm now going back to read all the previous posts on this thread as I couldn't take it all in the first time.
 

Lady Penelope

master brummie
PS to last post. Shops at the top of Penns Lane and the outdoor on the corner.
 

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Lady Penelope

master brummie
Sorry, my post #32 should have said 'Sutton Coldfield and Perry'.
I've gone through all the posts and it looks as though the answer to Viv's original question is that whoever put the caption on the postcard put the Birmingham Road details on the Chester Road pub.
 

Vivienne14

Super Moderator
Staff member
Thanks Pedro, Mike and Lady P. Lady P I think your conclusion is right on the caption.

I've just spent this evening trying to map all this out on a modern map so I can get it clear. And my word, it got very complicated ! One thought I've had concerns the distance between the suggested locations for the Beggars Bush (place). If I'm understanding this, the distance is pretty significant ie Chester Road/Jockey Road junction and Birmingham Road/Penns Lane area. I wonder if there's been confusion over time because of the descriptions used (and maybe interchangeable use) eg Beggar's Bush, Beggars' Bush or Bush.

Need to study it a bit more before I get it clear in my head! Viv.
 

Vivienne14

Super Moderator
Staff member
Hi Lady P. I think your point about the older 'shops' on Birmingham Road could very well help us. It might tell us a bit more if we can find some history about them. I have a 'gut' feeling they were originally a short row of cottages. And it looks to me that the shops with the curved windows were a later addition of houses/shops. So wonder if the early middle 'cottages' could give us any clues as to what was there before any later Victorian development.

All guesswork as usual - but I do love exploring ! Viv.

image.jpeg
 

Vivienne14

Super Moderator
Staff member
According to Bill Dargue's site there were two Beggars Bushes, as we've been exploring. This also seems to back up Lady P's suggestion about the incorrect labelling of the image in post #1. One BB was at Erdington (Penns Lane/B'ham Road) the other was at New Oscott (Jockey Road/Chester Road). Don't know why I missed this info on his site, but it's right at the very bottom of the Beggars Bush page. Here's the quote from Bill's site:

Beggars Bush, Erdington

C & J Greenwood's 1821 map of Warwickshire also shows a Beggars Bush at the junction of Birmingham Road & Penns Lane; this site too is on the parish boundary, here of Erdington & Sutton Coldfield.

So both Beggars Bushes were on parish boundaries. So I'm going to go with the explanation:- they were places of refuge for beggars when being kicked out of one parish - so they'd nip across the boundary to avoid punishment!

Would still like to find out more about those cottages on Birmingham Road though as it might tell us more about that particular Beggars Bush. Viv
 

Lady Penelope

master brummie
I'm looking at maps for the 1700's when I next go to the library so I'll keep this all in mind. I never ceased to be amazed at the amount of knowledge, pointers and information members post on this forum.
 

Astoness

TRUE BRUMMIE MODERATOR
Staff member
I'm looking at maps for the 1700's when I next go to the library so I'll keep this all in mind. I never ceased to be amazed at the amount of knowledge, pointers and information members post on this forum.

i agree pen..thats why this forum is so good...its a place of learning for all of us:)

lyn
 

oldMohawk

master brummie
Keith Berry photographed the Princess Alice Orphanage site which was the other side of Jockey Road from the Beggars Bush pub. His photos and comments below. Click the pic to enlarge
NewOscott.JPG
 

Lady Penelope

master brummie
Mike, although I've heard of corn maps / corn laws before I'm not aware of their purpose. What exactly were they please? Did they show every building?
 

Vivienne14

Super Moderator
Staff member
Thanks Mike.

Maybe Mike knows the answer to whether the Corn Maps showed all details Lady P, but the 1834 map seems to show some sort of building(s) at that point. Think it could be a farm perhaps? Viv.

image.jpeg
 

Lady Penelope

master brummie
Yes, that's interesting Viv. I think the larger of the buildings is Broadfields House, must try to find out when that was built. Not sure it would be connected with Penns Mill as that is a long way down the hill from Birmingham Road. It's a possibility though as some of my Hileys lived in Little Green Lanes and they worked at the mill prior to it moving to Hay Mills (I think it was). Interesting also is this enlarged map shows Sheffield's farm before the railway destroyed it (just north west from the building in question).
 

Vivienne14

Super Moderator
Staff member
sorry, posted before I'd finished!
The Bell and Cuckoo is mentioned on the Erdington thread and although I do remember the name 'Cotterell' I can't remember which house this refers to. Just on the opposite side of the Chester Road to the one in Pt 1 of this post. Hope this makes sense.

There were Cottrills/Cottrells (William) living at Broadfields in 1879 and I think a daughter married an Elkington. Viv.
 

Pedrocut

Master Barmmie
Just to give an idea of the development of the area around Penns Lane.

The Inclosure of 1827 created "a road of width 30 feet, starting at the west end of the road leading from the said green to Newhall Mill, and extending in a westward direction, over the middle of the said green, and terminating at the turnpike road leading from Birmingham to Sutton." I think this would be the present Wylde Green Road, and Penns Lane may have already existed?

A footpath was created in 1847 from near the School in Green Lanes. The school must have existed before that date and is shown on the 1887 map as being on the S side of Green Lanes.
 
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