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THE GARDENERS ARMS BUT WHERE?
- Thread starter Astoness
- Start date
Re the Sportsman Inn, Moseley Street I’ve found newspaper references to the Inn dating from May 1865 until July 1890. Viv.
The 1881 Census has John H. Palmer, Licenced Victualler at 1 Bloomsbury Street and Louis Hay, Licenced Victualler at 92 Bloomsbury Street. Neither address is described as being a drinking place so the might have just been residences. (No addresses in Bloomsbury Street are recorded as being pubs). Numbers 1 and 92 are first and last on the census so could be at the end of the street. The photo of The Gardener's Arms looks like an end-property, with a lean-to so might be 1 or 92.
I can't find any Gardener's Arms in Birmingham in the 1881 Census.
Looking through newspaper references, the Gardeners Arms at Bloomsbury Street, Nechells was there from at least 1833 until at least 1895. In the 1857 advert below it says the licenceholder had only changed once in the last 24 years, which takes it back to at least 1833. It was described in the advert as a “Retail Tavern”.
In later years it was listed as a “Beerseller” in a transfer of licence in March 1871 and a “Beerhouse” in March 1884 and October 1895.
Viv.
In later years it was listed as a “Beerseller” in a transfer of licence in March 1871 and a “Beerhouse” in March 1884 and October 1895.
Viv.
Attachments
In the 1880 and 1882 directories, No 1 Bloomsbury St is the Turks Head, and no 93 (no 92 listed, so almost certainly what was referred to) is the Beehive.
Other beer retailers listed in Bloomsbury st in 1882 directory were at:
154. George Marshall brassfounder. census does not list beerhouse on cnesus , but does not necessarily rule it out
149 Stephen Bloomer, beer retailer, no name of pub on census
117 Joseph Shorthouse beer retailer , no name of pub on census
114 James Arnold, tinplate worker, census does not list beerhouse on census , but does not necessarily rule it out
It is not uncommon for a beerhouse not to be listed as such on the census. sometimes it is a sideline to the main occupation (though not apparently in these cases) and the wife is listed as working in bar, , presumably there. Sometimes , as here, maybe the only occupants living there are listed, the bar being separate and noone there when census was taken
Other beer retailers listed in Bloomsbury st in 1882 directory were at:
154. George Marshall brassfounder. census does not list beerhouse on cnesus , but does not necessarily rule it out
149 Stephen Bloomer, beer retailer, no name of pub on census
117 Joseph Shorthouse beer retailer , no name of pub on census
114 James Arnold, tinplate worker, census does not list beerhouse on census , but does not necessarily rule it out
It is not uncommon for a beerhouse not to be listed as such on the census. sometimes it is a sideline to the main occupation (though not apparently in these cases) and the wife is listed as working in bar, , presumably there. Sometimes , as here, maybe the only occupants living there are listed, the bar being separate and noone there when census was taken
From the newspaper archives regarding licences/licensees of the Gardeners Arms, Bloomsbury Street
Jan 1871 licence transferred from George Nichols to Samuel Willett
Mar 1871 beerseller licence transferred from James Willetts to John Ford
Mar 1884 beerhouse licence to C. Whitby
Aug 1886 Frederick Hodges altered premises without police consent
July 1887 Frederick Hodges fined for possession of a pig with swine fever
Mar 1894 Frederick Hodges fined for a road accident
Sept 1895 Frederick Hodges refused licence renewal due to betting on premises
Oct 1895 beerhouse licence was forfeited
Viv
Jan 1871 licence transferred from George Nichols to Samuel Willett
Mar 1871 beerseller licence transferred from James Willetts to John Ford
Mar 1884 beerhouse licence to C. Whitby
Aug 1886 Frederick Hodges altered premises without police consent
July 1887 Frederick Hodges fined for possession of a pig with swine fever
Mar 1894 Frederick Hodges fined for a road accident
Sept 1895 Frederick Hodges refused licence renewal due to betting on premises
Oct 1895 beerhouse licence was forfeited
Viv
Spargone, the layout certainly looks like it could have a pleasure ground, skittles etc. While looking at the newspaper references, I did wonder why (if the Bloomsbury Street GA is the one) did it go from a Tavern with facilities as shown on the map to becoming, what looks like, a very small beerseller ? Was this because Frederick Hodges had wrecked its reputation and had to forfeit its licence ? Consequently was the Gardeners Arms in Lyn’s photo just a small part of the former premises ?
Viv.
Viv.
Pedrocut
Master Barmmie
OS Maps from 1890 and 1916, for around 157 Moseley St.
Interesting that the South side corner with Alcester Street changed into Rowton House, from what appears to be a Malthouse.
Edited to include the Thread on Rowton House.
birminghamhistory.co.uk
Interesting that the South side corner with Alcester Street changed into Rowton House, from what appears to be a Malthouse.
Edited to include the Thread on Rowton House.
Rowton House
Rowton House HI HARLEY Yes You Are Correct The Rowton House Was In Highgate Do You Or Anybody Else Know Could Tell Me What Was The Building Orinanal Was When It Was First Built , And What Year Was It Was First BUILT...
birminghamhistory.co.uk
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Pity we can’t see more of the left edge of the photo. I think there’s a crease on the original but the top word looks like ‘Hall’ and very possibly ‘ham’ underneath (Birmingham ?). Think it’s an advertising poster for a venue. There’s what I think looks like 31/8 - maybe. 31 Aug ? Bank holiday event ? Viv.
Attachments
Using evidence from one of our members we have a reference to “Back of Sportsman, Moseley Street”. This is from the Yards and Courtyards thread.
And 3 adverts from the 1850s and 60s.
Viv.
And 3 adverts from the 1850s and 60s.
Viv.
Attachments
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There was a transfer of beerseller licence for the Sportsman, Moseley Street from Thomas Fellowes to William Measham in October 1871
These two press cuttings might shed any more light on the location, I.e number 5 back of Sportsman
Viv.
These two press cuttings might shed any more light on the location, I.e number 5 back of Sportsman
Viv.
Viv
I had been trying to work out where the sportsman was. Had already determined from directories and electoral rolls that it was somewhere on the north side in the region marked by pink line on map. /Your cuttings have convinced me that it must be one of the two buildings in blue, almost certainly the larger one
I had been trying to work out where the sportsman was. Had already determined from directories and electoral rolls that it was somewhere on the north side in the region marked by pink line on map. /Your cuttings have convinced me that it must be one of the two buildings in blue, almost certainly the larger one
thanks mike if my pic showing the gardeners arms pub was at 157 in my photo there does not appear to be an entry to the left of it...it looks to me as though the pub was just converted from a normal size house..mind you i could be totally wrong lol...bit more research on this one..posting the photo again just noticed your previous post mike and it looks as though there is also a court behind the smaller blue building on your map
lyn
lyn
I wondered if it was once bigger. The lamp is rather extravagant for a small converted house, there appears to be either another doorway or alley to the right and I wouldn’t have expected an etched glazed window like the one shown to be in a small beerhouse. The window also has “Smokeroom” etched on it. My guess is that this section was the smokeroom and there were once other bars/rooms to the right out of view.
The lean-to (?) to the left may have previously been an alleyway.
I wondered why was the name changed (if it was the former Sportsman) ? Was there a park opened up or large house with many gardeners nearby ? Or of course there may not have been a particular reason. Viv.
The lean-to (?) to the left may have previously been an alleyway.
I wondered why was the name changed (if it was the former Sportsman) ? Was there a park opened up or large house with many gardeners nearby ? Or of course there may not have been a particular reason. Viv.
A list of Sportsman licensees and their family from Census and Kelly’s records - this list goes up to 1913. The Measheam/Mesham family info ties in with Mikes post #27 and Emma Morris post #17. Viv.
Pub history in London, suburbs & the south - mainly 1800 to 1940
Pub history in London, suburbs & the south - mainly 1800 to 1940
pubwiki.co.uk
Viv,
I can't see how if your post #37 is correct and if post #52 is correct that they can refer to the same pub.
Post #37 implies that the licencee was Hodges from 1886 - 1895 and #52 was Measheams from 1881 - 1915. As the periods overlap they must be two different pubs surely?
I can't see how if your post #37 is correct and if post #52 is correct that they can refer to the same pub.
Post #37 implies that the licencee was Hodges from 1886 - 1895 and #52 was Measheams from 1881 - 1915. As the periods overlap they must be two different pubs surely?
Yes it certainly looks that way. Just been trying to track back to the original connection with the Gardeners which was Herbert Evans at 157 Moseley Street.
It’s looking less and less likely that the Gardeners was in Moseley Street, although Herbert Evans may have been at this address as a beerseller (no name of the inn was given) it may not have been the Gardeners. Back to the drawing board. Viv.
It’s looking less and less likely that the Gardeners was in Moseley Street, although Herbert Evans may have been at this address as a beerseller (no name of the inn was given) it may not have been the Gardeners. Back to the drawing board. Viv.
And of course Herbert Evans was probably a fairly common name.
Viv.
Viv.
i agree with you viv...by the way what district does moseley st come under...i am not sure about this
lyn
I honestly do not think there is any way 157 can be the pub in the photo. Afraid I may have confused things by originally saying that pubs can change their name, but was meaning to say that I was not 1005 sure it could not be the same pub
Lyn - In the 1871 census it is in deritend and in 1901 St Martins. In 1920 the electoral rolls say St Martins & Deritend
Lyn - In the 1871 census it is in deritend and in 1901 St Martins. In 1920 the electoral rolls say St Martins & Deritend
mikes thanks also for your efforts but like you i dont think my gardeners was in moseley st..hopefully one day something more conclusive will turn up
lyn
